Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

The table isnt really a MU chart and i checked the other link but im not going to pretend like read french so i assume the chart might be there. this is more of what im talking about http://iplaywinner.com/news/2011/1/5/super-street-fighter-4-tier-list-january-2011.html

also raph dosnt really have ne glaring weakness outside of being a bit linear. My main point is that some of low tiers have been doing pretty well in tournament (Raph, Aeon,Tira), I was hoping that this would show the community that its too early to tier. Either way ill drop the whole tier thing for now so that we can focus on how awesome raph is
 
The chart is on page 18 third post by malek as an update. And this is a MU chart basically the same like the one you posted. I checked and it's my mistake you have to click on Tabeleau des Match-UPs in the down left corner. Anyway fixed the link.

And Tira and Aeon were never and are not low tier and I wish people would stop saying that.

youngfox said:
how awesome raph is
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Agreed.
 
youngfox said:
for example Raphs punishment can be on the weak end but in a MU where his range lets him punish things that others cant consistently, it could give him the MU 6-4.
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Unfortunately, simply being able to attack for free after blocking more moves doesn't necessarily push the matchup into our favor because the damage is negligible. 6BB has great speed and range, but will need to hit at least 15 times to take a round...since there is no frame advantage to go along with it, the fact that it exists does not necessarily shift a MU into our favor. It is helpful, but it won't force the opponent to play any differently. I wrote up a bunch of examples, but I deleted them because this isn't the place for that, but I wanted to point out that, yes, Raph's punishment is certainly on the weak end...even if he can "punish" more moves than most.
 
Fendante said:
Stop trying to imply that Raph's weak punishers don't do much at all. First of all,"weak" is a relative term. 6BB may only do 16 damage but it is i12, has great range, and has Prep entry on the second hit. The entire 6BBB move leads to 40 damage on CH. It's not a "weak" move and you will be at + frames if you enter Prep on the second hit of 6BB. Now of course Prep carries risks to continue pressure and offense but you can mix up up entering and not entering Prep as you 6BB punish throughout a match. That's just one example. Now let's talk more about the good things about Raph. Enough gloom lol.
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6BBB is not a punisher, but an interrupt, and is actually useful as such, but it does not apply to the punishment discussion. Also, being at + frames when entering prep is cute, but what do you do there...your fastest non-H move is uninterruptable (for most of the cast) but also very punishable

This is a discussion board for discussion about Raph, so unfortunately, there will be some negative things, like his lack of damage, and there will be some positive things, like 6BBB interrupt for example.
 
Fendante said:
I understand. Thank you for correcting me. Im only human and Im more than willing to admit Im wrong sometimes. Also, I appreciate what what you were trying to do. However, you said before that from experience, you felt Raph could not compete in tournaments at all. That has been disproven. If tiers are really more important than I thought, I will accept that but NOTHING will discourage or stop me from playing Raph. And I mean NOTHING.
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Agree. Im not dropping my main either despite how bad everyone talks about him (Zwei) haha lol. Need someone like youngfox to rep zwei and show people he isn't a pushover!
 
Fendante said:
It's gonna be hard to say goodbye to him later on.
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Why would we have to say goodbye to him later on? As far as i know, this is one of the characters that has more loyalty, getting him out of the cast for no aparent reason, (i mean, he cant get old, like mitsurugi) would be like getting ivy out of the cast, it would be just terrible.
 
rurounikenshin said:
Why would we have to say goodbye to him later on? As far as i know, this is one of the characters that has more loyalty, getting him out of the cast for no aparent reason, (i mean, he cant get old, like mitsurugi) would be like getting ivy out of the cast, it would be just terrible.
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That's what they said about Zas...
 
Fendante said:
Haha okay Prep K is unsafe but you still have the option to enter SE
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SE entry is wildly unsafe too. I have no idea why people sit there once he's in it and deal with its bullshit. I guess people think it's uninterruptable or something. I'm slowly learning to work it out of my game as of now.
 
Fanbase? There's like 5 of us. You're going bonkers on us. There aren't even real rumors that he won't be in VI.

Conditioning is difficult because they can actually sit there and wait to see the SE. There are a few things Raph can do if he wants to go long on something and throw some Hail Marys but a patient person who is aware of Raph has little to fear from Prep and SE.

Prep BBB
Prep AB
Prep BB A+B+K

Are all highs and with the exception of Prep bb BE (also a major risk to use) do very little guard damage. Prep K is unsafe and doesn't do a heap of guard damage to my knowledge which leaves A+B so if they can block A+B on reaction (easy to do) then Prep starts to have big issues fast. Heaven help you if they block the 1st hit of Prep K BE.

I do not intend to come down on Prep so hard. It has uses when used sparingly and of course com-boes. This is still the best overall Raph we've ever had. I just know long term we have to...... almost minimize Prep and SE use so it maintains effectiveness..... I guess?
 
It is the best Raph. Maybe IV was better...... but I doubt it. He can use a viable 22B~33B M/L mix up again. He has his old 4A via 22A. 1K has been returned to a one input fast TC with stun. He can also utilize Prep in a variety of combos. 4B is excellent and provide a "shock" NH stun for Raph. 6BB BE is ka-razy good for CH set ups for overzealous players. He has lost a heap but he still has his core moves and was heavily restored in many ways to his SC2 self and then some. In SC2 his most damaging combo was 66A+B 66K BB which took a CH on the 66A+B and only did 80 damage. The only combo he had that hurt worse was ACable. In 3 it was worse IIRC. Raph gets damage like this all over the place now. Yes, NM and Pattycakes get bananas damage in comparison but Raph has pretty good options for pain nowadays.
 
XxAnEpicGamerxX said:
Has Someone Made A Top 10 Moves List?
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Yeah, it is in the non-stickied section...Raph top 10 moves

Regarding SE - it is great against ignorant opponents...same as prep; however, as was mentioned, it is crazy unsafe. If you ever play against another Raph, the instant you see them enter prep just dominate them, but that's because you know how the Raph system works. Much like Decopon did at Evo, you can get away with a bunch of stuff that isn't actually guaranteed because people won't know, but that doesn't mean that the move(s) is(are) good. This also isn't to say that Decopon won only because of his parlor tricks, just that the ignorance factor can be really, really strong.

I would say that SCV pre 1.0.3 was probably the strongest Raph, but at this point, I still think SC2 Raph was best, but meh, it really doesn't matter anymore since this is all past.
 
i think u guys are underestimating SE. yes its unsafe to do but if u condition ur opponent to fear prep then ur open for SE. Ive fought people who know the raph MU consistently and they let me enter SE freely after getting countered by prep or i hit em from SE cuz they stepped. If u sit there and try to react to the duck then SEA interrupts many options.
 
I really must stress that Prep is unsafe on PAPER. How an opponent reacts to it is not set in stone. If an opponent shuts down prep with almost flawless results then he deserves to win, and telling yourself that "I would have won if I picked a different character to play" (hinted/stated by many people now,) is both unhelpful and frankly insulting to your opponent.

I play with heavy use of prep. My game focuses around mix-up/mind-games and taking advantage of Raph's pretty awesome wall game. I am sure there are characters with better wall games / mix-ups, but I really don't think I have skill-capped myself to a point where it makes or breaks me.

I literally NEVER use a prep entry move without entering prep. If an opponent uses a generic answer for all my prep entries, he will get destroyed faster than you can say "adapt."

I think most people don't realize just how flashy and FUN Raph can be. Most Raph players I see stick to a very dull ranging/poking game whilst using frame data as a defense for it. I stand 100% by the fact that playing a flashy game is an effective strategy to mess with your opponent. Standing back to wait for chances to 33B etc will neither freeze up your opponent, nor will it make you enjoy the character.

Raph is a loose canon of a character. He is not Pyrrah. He is not Mitsu. He is Raph.

He is meant to be played (again, in my opinion,) with a wide variety of his move-set, and with unsafe moves a-plenty.

Every character in the game has some sort of quirk or mechanic. Be it Hilde's charge mechanics, or Lexia's poke game, or Viola's Orb mechanics. I believe that Raph's mechanic, or "quirk" is that he is the gamble character. You are meant to throw as many quarters into the slot-machine as you can and keep on pulling the handle. You don't stop till you hit the jackpot, and you certainly don't wait for around trying to safely win $1 at a time.

Just landed a counter-hit Prep BBB stun? Go for the A+BA, screw the 2B. Heck, jump over them during the stun and go for a BT B+K / Taunt to 236B. I aint your mama, and I wont tell you what to do.

Just landed a 33KB (BE) ? Go for the 6BB Prep to prep mix-up, screw the safe damage.

Landed a 66A+B? Go for the BT B - 44A+B. They see it coming? Cancel that bad-boy and see what you can get off the Prep.

Play super-super aggressive and keep pushing your opponent towards walls. With 3A, B+G, Prep K (BE), 1B, 66K, 44A+B, 33K, and auto-GI you have enough mix-ups to land some hefty wall damage. There's no wall on the ring? BE EVEN MORE AGGRESSIVE! Why? Cos' there's no goddamn wall combos, baby!

Raph is for the gamblers and the great opponent readers. The bloody frames on his auto-evade / guard breaks prove this! I absolutely love Raph, and do (ego incoming) very well with him. I am not some random voice either. My hypothesis on his play-style comes from playing him from SC2 onwards (admittedly I only started getting good in 4.)

The evolution towards the gambler character has been pretty steady and clear.

I for one love it, I love Raph's playstyle, and I love the gambling! If it stops being fun I play someone from my harem of secondaries (shockingly all female.)

/end rant
 
Prep is important, but it is a tiny tiny part of Raph and the mistake is emphasizing it. Just because it is a stance does not mean it is supposed to show up 50, 10, or 5 percent of the time. It's an extremely limited stance that modifies the safety of a handful of mediocre pokes, and an unblockable cancel that is viable only if your opponent is a rhesus monkey.
It gels the opponent because any retaliation can be interrupted and beaten severely, and suffers to become predictable in a tourney situation. But it offers no pressure whatsoever, Sway is seeable and everything is solved by JG plus good crouching. (Prep K steppable is insulting but redundant.) It is used only to control when actions are allowed so that you have only a mental advantage of interrupting the pace.

Zanaken said:
I really must stress that Prep is unsafe on PAPER. How an opponent reacts to it is not set in stone. If an opponent shuts down prep with almost flawless results then he deserves to win, and telling yourself that "I would have won if I picked a different character to play" (hinted/stated by many people now,) is both unhelpful and frankly insulting to your opponent.
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Fact.

I think most people don't realize just how flashy and FUN Raph can be. Most Raph players I see stick to a very dull ranging/poking game whilst using frame data as a defense for it. I stand 100% by the fact that playing a flashy game is an effective strategy to mess with your opponent. Standing back to wait for chances to 33B etc will neither freeze up your opponent, nor will it make you enjoy the character.
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I pity how weak your area is.

You've vaguely grasped some concepts that do apply to play, but have plateau'd at where your opponents aren't hungry for victory, and themselves probably aren't playing dishonorably and solidly enough for it. You're using only half of the reality of situation.
You're basically just harnessing mixups but not using all the mixups available, being the one that includes luring retaliation. When you use every of your so-called opportunities, your letting the opponent expect your actions, only it's thanks to your own work rather than his. If Raph had true mixups in these situations, we'd be laughing, not pooh-poohing Pyrrha and Mitsu.

Don't stop loving the razzle dazzle. Don't misunderstand me there.
 
I agree with most of what zanaken said, he is right w the application of prep. what i disagree with is how he thinks raph should be pure gamble, but i also disagree with him being pure keep away. playing just keep away nets u damage but eventually ur opponent will get in. if u did ur job right though they shouldnt have the life lead, once they are in then prep can be used w decent risk reward. A mixture of prep and keep away makes raph competitive, that is how i feel he should be played. going on peoples opinions on the bored i feel like most of u only prefer one way or another, instead master them both and see how much deadlier raph is.

This whole theory fighter hurts our improvement, myself included. i use to assume that no one punished my prep k cuz they didnt no the MU, but when i asked a friend of mine who knows raph indepth y he didnt punish he told"i kept checking for the BE, by time it was confirmed i couldnt punish. I went to test 3b prep k and noticed that the pushback makes pyrrah stab an unreliable punish and if u try to punish w a launcher u have to do it immediately due to its low blockstun. There are alot of variable that are not represented on paper that allowed me to open up my move usage once i grasped that concept.
 
youngfox said:
I agree with most of what zanaken said, he is right w the application of prep. what i disagree with is how he thinks raph should be pure gamble, but i also disagree with him being pure keep away. playing just keep away nets u damage but eventually ur opponent will get in. if u did ur job right though they shouldnt have the life lead, once they are in then prep can be used w decent risk reward. A mixture of prep and keep away makes raph competitive, that is how i feel he should be played. going on peoples opinions on the bored i feel like most of u only prefer one way or another, instead master them both and see how much deadlier raph is.

This whole theory fighter hurts our improvement, myself included. i use to assume that no one punished my prep k cuz they didnt no the MU, but when i asked a friend of mine who knows raph indepth y he didnt punish he told"i kept checking for the BE, by time it was confirmed i couldnt punish. I went to test 3b prep k and noticed that the pushback makes pyrrah stab an unreliable punish and if u try to punish w a launcher u have to do it immediately due to its low blockstun. There are alot of variable that are not represented on paper that allowed me to open up my move usage once i grasped that concept.
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Some people won't ever understand that. Just look at the Leixia SA. They're pathetic. Their only saving grace is that Leixia isn't as "bad" as Raph. I just post when I'm bored now. As being here in general and talking with whiny scrubs after you learned your own stuff is just plain annoying and will just drag you down.

By the way youngfox? Where are you? You haven't been on since I added you. There's no competition at all on Xbox Live. I wanna get the goodies I can cause I can't afford a PS3 right now.
 
My passionate tone did overstate the gamble part of the character. Let me be more clear with what I think he is:

Raph is Poker. Not roulette, but poker. You can, of course, say this about any character to a degree, but most of them don't have a move that straight up let's them lunge backwards to do the Neo. I am sure many people were screaming "Punish the duck with bullets to the LEGS, stupid agent," but Raph/Neo (henceforth known as Reo,) clearly play some great mind-games.

I believe he is a character where reading and prediction can, compared to most of the cast, shine the strongest. The point to keep though, is that poker is a game of chance, as well as skill.

Poker Reo (henceforth known as Peo,) is my play-style. There is no one best play-style, and I admit that.

Small addendum for Mandritti:
The way I see it, the people who use a generic answer like a quick poke to destroy SE entries usually take in about 30 damage (pulling the number out of my ass here,) however, landing a SE B near a wall, or not, will net me significantly more.

I agree with your rebuttal to my point to a degree. I am not some crazy-ass spammer. I play to win myself. I just genuinely believe the distance poke game is a serious insult to Raph. My main point being that it isn't NEEDED (most of the match.)
 
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