Raphael General Discussion

[darkfender]

Quite right except ivy :) but considering that TP was said the worst move in SCIV at least i tried to say its not.

 

[WARUI_NE]

TP isnt the worst move in SC4

Algol QI A+B or raph 4B+K is

algol QI A+B is -27 on hit

 

[Mandritti]

TP isnt the worst move in SC4

Algol QI A+B or raph 4B+K is

Nah, Raph 4B+K can't be the worst move because there's no way it's second to K+G. :) I've backstepped online Xianghua riposte with 4B+K. xD

If anyone's used K+G (cancel) to approach, I'm all ears.

algol QI A+B is -27 on hit

Lolwow, and < 20 dmg? I think that settles it.

4B+K can never hit, but QI A+B you don't even want to hit. So using which one is the better troll? ;)

 

[BelovedChild]

Voldo 22_88 A+B is way worse then both. 4B+K has decent recovery for a useless move, and Algol QI deals damage and STILL less punishable then Voldo 22_88 A+B.

 

[darkfender]

Quick questions about 3 prep >.>
I read SEA B stays at something like I29 (14+15 of seA)
same SEA

that would make it very difficult to step B as certain response to a blocked prep (obviously hitting at TIP).
i.e. 1 (3B On block)+15(SEA) +14 (SEA B) =30
where step stays at i13 if i understood well + B @i17 =30

But i thought step B was a consistent punish against a blocked prep so i should have done some miscalculation.
Could you tell me where i am wrong?
(not that i use often preps on block but when i miss a punishment it may happen).


Second question.
I find myself for example to punish a blocked relicB (-18) with 3
I usually continue the string with BB (NC)

Should i use better options?
In case not, its better to stop after BB on HIT (-2) or its better to stop the prep.

Talking of an offline environment OFC.


Last question on VE:
It seems it steps well some Asta RO option like bullrush (mid K) and with K i can RO him instead.
Its possible to do this consistently or is something too random to do?
And if its a good options any suggestion for training it? (i'll face lot of astaroth >_> so it could be very useful).

 

[WuHT]

Quick questions about 3 prep >.>
I read SEA B stays at something like I29 (14+15 of seA)
same SEA

that would make it very difficult to step B as certain response to a blocked prep (obviously hitting at TIP).
i.e. 1 (3B On block)+15(SEA) +14 (SEA B) =30
where step stays at i13 if i understood well + B @i17 =30

But i thought step B was a consistent punish against a blocked prep so i should have done some miscalculation.
Could you tell me where i am wrong?
(not that i use often preps on block but when i miss a punishment it may happen).


Second question.
I find myself for example to punish a blocked relicB (-18) with 3
I usually continue the string with BB (NC)

Should i use better options?
In case not, its better to stop after BB on HIT (-2) or its better to stop the prep.

Talking of an offline environment OFC.

I cannot help you.

But you're bringing up the point of basically using delayed verticals to beat an opponent's step-counter attack. As long as the attack doesn't have tech-step throughout (ie like ivy's dastardly 214B) one of the following should work on block:

3~BB for late steppers
3~SEA for early steppers (some chars can step this easier)
3B, 3B for step-guarders.

The only problem is the risk reward is not as good for raph. Going into SEA causes you to at least walk forward so that if they DO step and punish with a big vertical (ie Asta's 22B4 ) there is a chance it'll whiff and mitigate your risk.
---
Yes, -2 sucks against certain characters, but against guys like mitsu you gotta remember that at -2 it's not too bad for you.

Your 6BBB now becomes something that can beat any non TC non TS i16, which if you look at mitsu's movelist it'll open up a lotta options, not to mention the obvious prepB~prepA which pretty much beats anything.


At -2, raph can either step (or VE), 44B or 4 , which is pretty good. If they plan to use better tracking or longer ranged moves, you can interrupt by re-entering prep or 6BBB. I just hope you're good at out-thinking your opponent, especially those concerned with frames because they'll feel obligated to attack you because you're at negative frames. You might as well out-right tell them that! The only ones you should worry about are those with BB's that tend to cover their sides (mitsu, sophie.. etc)

On block for :
A
6A
66A+B
On hit for
BB
prepBB
2K

Last question on VE:
It seems it steps well some Asta RO option like bullrush (mid K) and with K i can RO him instead.
Its possible to do this consistently or is something too random to do?
And if its a good options any suggestion for training it? (i'll face lot of astaroth >_> so it could be very useful).

i am not sure VE's tracking justifies it being a good punish (though VE K in this case is his best option and the fact that asta takes a while to block if he whiffs this is as good of an opportunity to VE K). Using VE upclose might cause asta to 66K way behind you .. causing you to start attacking from VE in the opposite direction (which at least you can run away)

I dunno i've been rungout countless times trying to manually step bullrush.

 

[darkfender]

Thank you
So prep is only bad at risk reward but is not something you can punish with just one options with every character?

 

[WuHT]

Thank you
So prep is only bad at risk reward but is not something you can punish with just one options with every character?

one thing that I have only started to examine is how the forward moving part of prep makes the opponant's step-punish whiff.. obviously it's not entirely reliable.

As long as you understand that when raph is at minor disadvantage he actually is more dangerous (-4 to -2) due to his plethora of high damage defensive moves (60ish from step 22, 4 and 44B, and safeish to boot) you also gotta realize that when raph is at advantage its' also his greatest chance to take damage. If you are at +4 lets say and you think it's a good time to throw out a BB, chances are it's actually a bait for an opponent to step punish.

 

[Mandritti]

That makes sense, I know, but it also sounds silly.

It can't be bad to be at greater advantage. Even if that time is used doing nothing (baiting, reflecting), we have more chance and the opponent has less. If only a person could consciously wait out the 6 frames and act at a -2 beat, lol.
I do know the one thing bad about advantage is that, during that time, the opponent learns something about your choices, but you learn nothing about his (since he isn't making any).


I do see, how this comes down to Raph not being able to "make the opponent play how he wants," unlike high tier characters. If he presses, he tends to open more ways to be beaten, than to shut off options from the opponent. And at +, your opponent will take a defensive posture.

But there's got to be a way to make that defensive posture the disadvantaged! If you can put the opponent there, what is the point of dreaming of success with this character if he can't make some fear out of that?
This game plan appears to be saying Raphael wants to give the opponent the feel of having more control than he really does, so Raphael can, swish swish, dodge and parry and level 60 damage. But this has to be self-defeating.

Because surely, the highest level of play would evolve to realize that. Raph is dangerous at -2. Let's say. Then players would treat that as the time to be cautious, against prevailing generalities. Now how do you open opponents up? It's only easier for the opponent to put Raphael at 'advantage'. From +4, or whatever, now they've "got you."

There's got to be something wrong here.


...
a thought occurs.
How quick is G cancelling on A_B_K? Maybe with small advantages, Raph can fit an aG in there, be safe, and come out at something more like -2. I'm thinking you would do this most of the time, and every so often actually finish the A, giving you true -2. Or maybe bG would be better. One tempts a duck, one tempts a step. And perhaps more importantly, they say no to step and duck, vice versa.
I tend to dislike where puts me, regardless.

EDIT: I mean most of the time, in this "aG or A" guess. Obviously there's other things you can try with +3-+5.

... this seems it would be beaten by throw. Phooey?

 

[Nukleurfire]

it's not really the frames, actually more frames ARE good for raph, it's just if the opponent is attacking predictably or not.

 

[WuHT]

That makes sense, I know, but it also sounds silly.

It can't be bad to be at greater advantage. Even if that time is used doing nothing (baiting, reflecting), we have more chance and the opponent has less. If only a person could consciously wait out the 6 frames and act at a -2 beat, lol.
I do know the one thing bad about advantage is that, during that time, the opponent learns something about your choices, but you learn nothing about his (since he isn't making any).


I do see, how this comes down to Raph not being able to "make the opponent play how he wants," unlike high tier characters. If he presses, he tends to open more ways to be beaten, than to shut off options from the opponent. And at +, your opponent will take a defensive posture.

Thats exactly it. Some characters when they're at minor + frames the opponant wont risk an evasive manuever because of tracking or the CH options are too dangerous to justify anything but blocking. Against raph, since you can step a lot of his options clean, or TC his slower horizontals, you shouldn't act surprised if you make the wrong guess at + frames and eat damage.

But there's got to be a way to make that defensive posture the disadvantaged! If you can put the opponent there, what is the point of dreaming of success with this character if he can't make some fear out of that?

haha thats why i sometimes step during advantage frames (to match the opponents step, such that I still retain the frame advantage when we both complete our steps ) and try to interrupt their punish with my own.
It sounds retarded but it'll work as long as you dont' become predictable.

This game plan appears to be saying Raphael wants to give the opponent the feel of having more control than he really does, so Raphael can, swish swish, dodge and parry and level 60 damage. But this has to be self-defeating.

This is why raph is annoying to play against , but not really a threat because his playstyle is not similar to the other straightforward characters. Ie: look at mitsu. BB is always a good option for him at advantage, simply because the 2nd swing has retarded property that'll nick you if you attempt to step-punish (you'll have to step it cleanly and wait till the animation is done before you can safely "punish"). The closest thing that has decent tracking and is mid is perhaps A+BA, - while slower and shorter ranged. - actually tucks raph in so it's surprisingly evasive.

Because surely, the highest level of play would evolve to realize that. Raph is dangerous at -2. Let's say. Then players would treat that as the time to be cautious, against prevailing generalities. Now how do you open opponents up? It's only easier for the opponent to put Raphael at 'advantage'. From +4, or whatever, now they've "got you."

There's got to be something wrong here.

Aside from my weakness of knowing how to get off the ground safely, being punished for whiffs is my main reason for taking damage. I don't think mixups (mid low) should be a main source of damage against raph simply because raph should be making it very hard for an opponent to get up close to attempt a 50/50.

...
a thought occurs.
How quick is G cancelling on A_B_K? Maybe with small advantages, Raph can fit an aG in there, be safe, and come out at something more like -2. I'm thinking you would do this most of the time, and every so often actually finish the A, giving you true -2. Or maybe bG would be better. One tempts a duck, one tempts a step. And perhaps more importantly, they say no to step and duck, vice versa.
I tend to dislike where puts me, regardless.

EDIT: I mean most of the time, in this "aG or A" guess. Obviously there's other things you can try with +3-+5.

... this seems it would be beaten by throw. Phooey?

Actually if you aG or bG wouldn't it make sense for your opponent to just freeze up and attempt guard. If you become predictable with it, they'll just gamble to CH you because raph's AA and BB is pretty easy to outdamage and hence well worth the risk.

 

[Mandritti]

So Prep Shenanigans is closed for some reason about there being two Prep threads. When there aren't.

Prep K will jump Astaroth's 44A after blocking 3.

wtf.

 

[Nukleurfire]

haha thats why i sometimes step during advantage frames (to match the opponents step, such that I still retain the frame advantage when we both complete our steps ) and try to interrupt their punish with my own.
It sounds retarded but it'll work as long as you dont' become predictable.

Could you match their step and then step again?

 

[WARUI_NE]

well I was working on raph oki involving 11B and 1K but since my copy of MBAA came im far to busy with that

so what ill say is, in most knock down situations 11B is a force block to all BUT left tech in which case you must use 1K to catch

some knock downs include 6A CH and prep BBB:B im sure there are others but what ever

66A+B 11B must be blocked and cannot be completely evaded in any teching in any direction,rolling, or lying there

 

[Mandritti]

11b caught right tech? Are you sure?
Raph's sword hits on his clockwise during the attack, so of the times when linear 11b hits any movement, it's always been left movement for me.

And by 66A+B, you G to turn around?

*~*~*~
More about Prep K in general: I see in many videos throughout SCIV's run, Prep K getting inside a character that uses a vertical slash. He moves inside them and they whiff, Raph usually ending up on their left side.
If you don't add the JF, I think he's merely at large minus and mutual off-axis. If regularities could be found, Prep K could be more attractive in doing what Prep B+K often can't do.

 

[WARUI_NE]

I mean their right not raphs

 

[Mandritti]

I mean their right not raphs

That's what I took it to mean. And that's really surprising.

11b brings the sword down Raph's right side. With it, I've only caught an upright, moving opponent when they move left, i.e., into the sword.
But if that's what happens on wake, that's what happens.

I wish there was bigger reward for landing . *sigh*
I do love 11b, though, so I'll be seeing what I can do.

WuHT's post has given me a lot to meditate on, sorry I didn't say that before.

 

[darkfender]

why use 1K instead of A+B? ._.

 

[darkfender]

Suppaquestion for offline play----

Is prepB VE transition a suicide?

I mean i could delay B or SEAB so if enter prep and get blocked for a mistake could transitioning in VE be a good idea if used rarely?

Or is punishable ON reaction (i mean they SEE VE transition and punish according).

 

[WARUI_NE]

why use 1K instead of A+B? ._.

because 1K sets itself up into another force block

if 1K hits grounded they must tech or the next 1K is free
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Suppaquestion for offline play----

Is prepB VE transition a suicide?

I mean i could delay B or SEAB so if enter prep and get blocked for a mistake could transitioning in VE be a good idea if used rarely?

Or is punishable ON reaction (i mean they SEE VE transition and punish according).

its punishable on reaction but a lot of people wont be able to AA/2A you at the right range