Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
iWS A is the only true aswer ^_^
iWS A is the only true aswer ^_^
Raphael General Discussion
- Thread starter Discoprophet
- Start date
piggy
RIP Team Edward
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
I have to disagree...all versions of WS A are trash unless they are pretty far away (like, FC3B WS A) away...(you can iWS A if 2A won't be good enough, but only if you aren't within 2A range of them cause you will lose a lot) It is safeish on block, but at i22, beware...even at +4 frames you can get BB'd
11B has some crazy tracking properties, it tracks really late in the move so that it can actually hit people that step behind you. It does good soul damage, and even people that are used to it get hit, though I usually use it also only for gauge damage. Also TJ at i12 goes over 2A pretty reliably
1BB is crap...only use it against people who are terrible at this game. It pretty much guarantees you will get step - launched. i17 is good, and NCC is cute, but even 1BB is only 20 damage...compared to 1A which is i20 (1/20 of a second longer) which is much harder to step, better range, and 18 damage. You can try to use 1BB against grounded, but A+B A, 2B, 66A+B, 1K, 11B are all better options if you ask me.
I have to disagree...all versions of WS A are trash unless they are pretty far away (like, FC3B WS A) away...(you can iWS A if 2A won't be good enough, but only if you aren't within 2A range of them cause you will lose a lot) It is safeish on block, but at i22, beware...even at +4 frames you can get BB'd
11B has some crazy tracking properties, it tracks really late in the move so that it can actually hit people that step behind you. It does good soul damage, and even people that are used to it get hit, though I usually use it also only for gauge damage. Also TJ at i12 goes over 2A pretty reliably
1BB is crap...only use it against people who are terrible at this game. It pretty much guarantees you will get step - launched. i17 is good, and NCC is cute, but even 1BB is only 20 damage...compared to 1A which is i20 (1/20 of a second longer) which is much harder to step, better range, and 18 damage. You can try to use 1BB against grounded, but A+B A, 2B, 66A+B, 1K, 11B are all better options if you ask me.
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
I use a lot of 1B when they're down, and 11B/236B if they try to tech back. I'm not sure if there's anything that catches side tech (44AB, maybe), so I just delay the 11B a bit, since it doesn't matter too much if it's blocked. Hell, if they're not step happy I occasionally use 11B just to approach them.
3A is a half decent mid that gives a bit of advantage and covers his right..... that's it, lol. 6A is kinda sorta fast at i15, gives nice advantage on hit, and is only -2 on block (Stupid fake 6BB frame traps ftw).
I use a lot of 1B when they're down, and 11B/236B if they try to tech back. I'm not sure if there's anything that catches side tech (44AB, maybe), so I just delay the 11B a bit, since it doesn't matter too much if it's blocked. Hell, if they're not step happy I occasionally use 11B just to approach them.
3A is a half decent mid that gives a bit of advantage and covers his right..... that's it, lol. 6A is kinda sorta fast at i15, gives nice advantage on hit, and is only -2 on block (Stupid fake 6BB frame traps ftw).
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
11_77B is used for doing soul gauge damage or jumping a slow low attack
11_77B is used for doing soul gauge damage or jumping a slow low attack
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
good point. I've scored a lot of CH 6BBB after a blocked 66A+B(also due to the push back), and I guess i should try with 6A.
side point : doing a 4B after a blocked 66A+B against amy when u know she'll race with 6BBB will result in a impact clash with her 2nd hit, and you eating the 3rd hit.
Anyways i hate it when people step AFTER u hit them with wsA, the +4 advantage is just juicy enough for me to try to go for verticals, but inevitably I will whiff. I guess thats when u go for 6A or 3A lol
good point. I've scored a lot of CH 6BBB after a blocked 66A+B(also due to the push back), and I guess i should try with 6A.
side point : doing a 4B after a blocked 66A+B against amy when u know she'll race with 6BBB will result in a impact clash with her 2nd hit, and you eating the 3rd hit.
Anyways i hate it when people step AFTER u hit them with wsA, the +4 advantage is just juicy enough for me to try to go for verticals, but inevitably I will whiff. I guess thats when u go for 6A or 3A lol
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
I haven't checked how well (if at all) 6A covers step, lol. It's worth checking out, but I don't have my 360. And I'd imagine iWS B would shut Amy's 6BB down if she abuses it at certain points.
I haven't checked how well (if at all) 6A covers step, lol. It's worth checking out, but I don't have my 360. And I'd imagine iWS B would shut Amy's 6BB down if she abuses it at certain points.
piggy
RIP Team Edward
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
WS B is great against 6BB...
Good steppers can step 6A both directions (like Prep A)...at least as best as I can remember
WS B is great against 6BB...
Good steppers can step 6A both directions (like Prep A)...at least as best as I can remember
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
At that range, 2A and K/4K would probably work anyway (Albeit with less rewards on CH).
At that range, 2A and K/4K would probably work anyway (Albeit with less rewards on CH).
piggy
RIP Team Edward
Here's a fun question...
Am I the only one who never uses BBB:B after 3 A (ch)?
I only use B to re-enter prep to continue with the pressure since, according to me, Raph's oki is trash (compared to prep pressure) and 14 damage just isn't that big a deal (unless this will kill them, then I'll take the damage).
Anybody else do this?
Also, keep in mind that, when entering prep through 3 or SEA if you hear them press a button on block, press A for a CH...listen to that crap...it really works well.
Am I the only one who never uses BBB:B after 3 A (ch)?
I only use B to re-enter prep to continue with the pressure since, according to me, Raph's oki is trash (compared to prep pressure) and 14 damage just isn't that big a deal (unless this will kill them, then I'll take the damage).
Anybody else do this?
Also, keep in mind that, when entering prep through 3 or SEA if you hear them press a button on block, press A for a CH...listen to that crap...it really works well.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
anyone want to make a raph pros and cons list for people new to him?
because alot of new raphs have come recently alot meaning like 3 of them
because alot of new raphs have come recently alot meaning like 3 of them
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
piggy: dont do 3~prep do 3~prep B~prep its all guaranteed no point skipping extra damage. I used to go into VE for the mixups but once people start interrupting it on reaction or just punishing your VE A and VE K it stops getting fun. Raph's wakeups are ok, with 8wrA+B catching a lot of stuff and decent on block. Staying in prep might be good for Gauge damage though.
Also if your opp is on arcade stick "hearing strategy" becomes much less viable. even so some people will try to decieve you clicking "empty" buttons etc. Thats not really reliable stuff, just a trick against a newbie. Most players just go into step once youre in prep you should probably stop after doing 3B etc.
angelic:
thats really easy:
pros:
- Evade and TC are among the best in the game (44B/4B/WS B). his TJ 44K and 6K are also good.
- Relatively strong throws
- Great range
- Great SS puishment with 22_88~VE B:B (60+ wakeups)
- Very strong vs low level opponents due to prep A
- Good gauge damage
- Decent long range wiff punishment.
cons:
- relatively difficult to learn (I know sounds funny, but most new players have trouble with stances and start ctying its useless also Raph needs a difficult JF to be good (VE B:B))
- Very weak against step
- Very limited options at a high level
- Highly unsafe
- Poor wakeups (66A+B and or 1K_2K are probably the most you can get)
- weak unsafety punishment
- weak WS punishment
- poor post-GI (throwing is generally best you get compared to... 236B/33k:B/66B?)
- Very weak auto-GI (4A+B can be re-GI'ed, 8A+B low dmg high risk)
- Poor risk reward on mix ups (this includes prep and VE of course)
- Poor RO-potential
Also if your opp is on arcade stick "hearing strategy" becomes much less viable. even so some people will try to decieve you clicking "empty" buttons etc. Thats not really reliable stuff, just a trick against a newbie. Most players just go into step once youre in prep you should probably stop after doing 3B etc.
angelic:
thats really easy:
pros:
- Evade and TC are among the best in the game (44B/4B/WS B). his TJ 44K and 6K are also good.
- Relatively strong throws
- Great range
- Great SS puishment with 22_88~VE B:B (60+ wakeups)
- Very strong vs low level opponents due to prep A
- Good gauge damage
- Decent long range wiff punishment.
cons:
- relatively difficult to learn (I know sounds funny, but most new players have trouble with stances and start ctying its useless also Raph needs a difficult JF to be good (VE B:B))
- Very weak against step
- Very limited options at a high level
- Highly unsafe
- Poor wakeups (66A+B and or 1K_2K are probably the most you can get)
- weak unsafety punishment
- weak WS punishment
- poor post-GI (throwing is generally best you get compared to... 236B/33k:B/66B?)
- Very weak auto-GI (4A+B can be re-GI'ed, 8A+B low dmg high risk)
- Poor risk reward on mix ups (this includes prep and VE of course)
- Poor RO-potential
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
your fogeting his damage he does nice damage now
i wasnt one of the new players just thought it would be usefull forsome of the new ones
also his soul crush game is strong
has alot of knock back on his attacks
strong stuns
i wasnt one of the new players just thought it would be usefull forsome of the new ones
also his soul crush game is strong
has alot of knock back on his attacks
strong stuns
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
His damage is nothing special really, I dont see how you calculated this.
His soul crush is decent indeed if you are eager to spam unsafe moves, I will hoever add this to my post.
Knock backs? when, where?
Strong stuns? another mystery. Whats this supposed to mean? thats not an advantage. Strong stuns would be great if it equaled strong CH, but since his only CH option is prep A which is like, 100% readable I dont think thats the case.
His soul crush is decent indeed if you are eager to spam unsafe moves, I will hoever add this to my post.
Knock backs? when, where?
Strong stuns? another mystery. Whats this supposed to mean? thats not an advantage. Strong stuns would be great if it equaled strong CH, but since his only CH option is prep A which is like, 100% readable I dont think thats the case.
piggy
RIP Team Edward
First off...
newbie? Please...(anyway)
Stick buttons are easier to hear than pad buttons, so I don't know what you mean by that...also, I can't imagine SC players realizing "hey, he is listening to me input crap, maybe I should hit blank buttons", and if I hear "click" and use A and get punished for it, then I give him props, and actually get stuck with a 50/50 (I hear KDZaster is pretty good...never seen him press a blank button to avoid CH...)
(also, the only way to use B after Prep A(ch) is through 3, but I should probably post the whole thing for people that may not know that, you're right...sorry.)
Also...a list of safe(ish) moves with decent crush damage:
A+B A (last hit can be GI'd, though, so watch out)
11B
SEA
236B
Guage Damage is a viable strategy
Finally...these quotes are both from your previous post
Make up your mind?
newbie? Please...(anyway)
Stick buttons are easier to hear than pad buttons, so I don't know what you mean by that...also, I can't imagine SC players realizing "hey, he is listening to me input crap, maybe I should hit blank buttons", and if I hear "click" and use A and get punished for it, then I give him props, and actually get stuck with a 50/50 (I hear KDZaster is pretty good...never seen him press a blank button to avoid CH...)
(also, the only way to use B after Prep A(ch) is through 3, but I should probably post the whole thing for people that may not know that, you're right...sorry.)
Also...a list of safe(ish) moves with decent crush damage:
A+B A (last hit can be GI'd, though, so watch out)
11B
SEA
236B
Guage Damage is a viable strategy
Finally...these quotes are both from your previous post
Make up your mind?
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
66A+B has great knock back along with WS A which tracks good BTW
66A+B does nice soul gauge damage same with 44A both of which are safe
you also seem to neglect 4B as a stun which is a tech duck also 6A unsafe but what ever
weak unsafely punishment?
seriously?
3 is all you need also 236B works on some moves like kiliks 6A+B
also VE B:B is easy i get that %99 of the time
66A+B does nice soul gauge damage same with 44A both of which are safe
you also seem to neglect 4B as a stun which is a tech duck also 6A unsafe but what ever
weak unsafely punishment?
seriously?
3 is all you need also 236B works on some moves like kiliks 6A+B
also VE B:B is easy i get that %99 of the time
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
Use for 6A, 1BB (or 1B), 3A, and 11_77 B
is there any use at all for 8A+B? seems pretty crappy to me
is there any use at all for 8A+B? seems pretty crappy to me
Hudathan
[09] Warrior
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Piggy: If you're not familiar with people hitting blank buttons against somebody who tries to read it than you've never been to any serious tournament. Its quite common, actually, especially when you're otg and your opp is trying a wake up.
sorry I misread your post and read 3 instead of b
236B is -17 its totally not safe. The rest is, well, really hard to use, except SEA B that's also risky.
Sorry for misunderstanding - Raphs wakeups are nothing good compared to many other characters, still they are not so bad as most people think. I believe his wakeups are poor but not non existant, at least he has mid thats safe and hits otg and rolls.
angelic: I wish my opponents did as much -17 unsafe moves regularly. :)
for VE B:B I didnt give that much time but even koreans who constantly hit mad difficult stuff fail that JF pretty often. maybe Im wrong, need other opinions here.
I cant see whats so great about having stuns? they look cool? if 4B would launch instead that wouldnt change a thing. stun = CH for me. b/c you can bait for CH. b/c you cant deal damage without CH or would deal less dmg w/o CH. Otherwise it doesnt matter if its a stun. And his only real CH stun is prep A. see above. Astaroth has strong stuns. not Raph.
sorry I misread your post and read 3 instead of b
236B is -17 its totally not safe. The rest is, well, really hard to use, except SEA B that's also risky.
Sorry for misunderstanding - Raphs wakeups are nothing good compared to many other characters, still they are not so bad as most people think. I believe his wakeups are poor but not non existant, at least he has mid thats safe and hits otg and rolls.
angelic: I wish my opponents did as much -17 unsafe moves regularly. :)
for VE B:B I didnt give that much time but even koreans who constantly hit mad difficult stuff fail that JF pretty often. maybe Im wrong, need other opinions here.
I cant see whats so great about having stuns? they look cool? if 4B would launch instead that wouldnt change a thing. stun = CH for me. b/c you can bait for CH. b/c you cant deal damage without CH or would deal less dmg w/o CH. Otherwise it doesnt matter if its a stun. And his only real CH stun is prep A. see above. Astaroth has strong stuns. not Raph.
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Wut? It's -12. 236B is -12. Multiple people have tested this. If you doubt it, go test it yourself.
piggy
RIP Team Edward
Also...I have been to plenty of serious tournaments, for many years, for multiple games...and have been around the "when you hear them press a button, do X" strat...my guess is you haven't. This is a Raph discussion thread, which is why I was discussing strat that can be used...when you have frame advantage from 3 or SEA against anyone but Taki or Amy (Trade with 6BB but can still get combo) IF you hear the opp press a button, and YOU press A, you will win out and score the CH.
(Incidentally, I have been on both sides of the aural clue fence...and trust me, it is hard to realize that someone is reacting to your buttons instead of what they see...and also, the human brain receives aural input faster than visual input, so reaction time is better by listening than by seeing)
And honestly, I'm not talking about hearing someone stand up, I'm talking in the middle of a rush down, when THEY are at disadvantage, and shit is going down...this is when reaction time matters, not if someone decides to sleep or tech or roll (all are easily reacted to visually).
Also, as anybody who has been to "serious" tournaments knows, if you do this, and they actually DO hit a blank button (which, incidentally, don't exist by default (and it is not likely that someone will either A) bind a button to nothing or B) leave go of G so they can bait prep A with a G and possibly eat it if I don't wait) you eat some damage, and then you switch the mixup from there - which leads to an entirely different discussion about tournament strat vs playing to be better (they are not the same), and if you want to discuss this, I am more than happy to do so.
I'm not saying this is something upon which you can rely, what I AM saying is that it works...it has worked against fantastic Calibur players in SC4 (KDZaster for example) as well as fantastic fighters also with tons of "serious" tournament experience. Raph isn't fantastic in this game; however, this is a tool upon which we can call if the opp makes it available to us.
(Incidentally, I have been on both sides of the aural clue fence...and trust me, it is hard to realize that someone is reacting to your buttons instead of what they see...and also, the human brain receives aural input faster than visual input, so reaction time is better by listening than by seeing)
And honestly, I'm not talking about hearing someone stand up, I'm talking in the middle of a rush down, when THEY are at disadvantage, and shit is going down...this is when reaction time matters, not if someone decides to sleep or tech or roll (all are easily reacted to visually).
Also, as anybody who has been to "serious" tournaments knows, if you do this, and they actually DO hit a blank button (which, incidentally, don't exist by default (and it is not likely that someone will either A) bind a button to nothing or B) leave go of G so they can bait prep A with a G and possibly eat it if I don't wait) you eat some damage, and then you switch the mixup from there - which leads to an entirely different discussion about tournament strat vs playing to be better (they are not the same), and if you want to discuss this, I am more than happy to do so.
I'm not saying this is something upon which you can rely, what I AM saying is that it works...it has worked against fantastic Calibur players in SC4 (KDZaster for example) as well as fantastic fighters also with tons of "serious" tournament experience. Raph isn't fantastic in this game; however, this is a tool upon which we can call if the opp makes it available to us.