Raphael General Discussion

Egg: : http://www.8wayrun.com/f35/ve-study-t452/

Dullyanna: okay I'll double check. the only data I had is Kolhells on caliburforums and it said its -17, also I got it punished, but I didnt really test it since 1.02.

piggy: There are generally two kinds of strategies - gimmicky and/or solid. solid strat will work even after being widely known b/c its ... uh, solid. And gimmicky will only work when ppl are unaware of it/inexperienced=newbie. The "hearing" stuff definitely works (as you pointed out correctly, reaction to sound is faster than visuals) and has been used forever and a lot through SC2, but that only works on bad players. good players either press buttons silently, play stick, or decieve you by blank buttons. probably all at once.

Uh and, stick has plently blank buttons, and normal tournaments have shoulder button mapping/binding banned.
 
Bel -

I'm done arguing with you (as it is apparent you didn't really read what I had to say), and that's fine. I don't care that you think I'm a scrub, and I don't care that you apparently don't know how we run tournaments (ban on button binding? since when? Regionals / nationals / evo will all allow binding (but no macros)also, at "serious" tournaments people will check their button settings before every match, so you (should) always know if they have blank buttons or not (default is no blank buttons)...).

Finally
There are generally two kinds of strategies - gimmicky and/or solid. solid strat will work even after being widely known b/c its ... uh, solid. And gimmicky will only work when ppl are unaware of it/inexperienced=newbie.
Click to expand...
Well, it is still very early in the game, after nationals we will know a lot more, so it is hard to tell what is gimmicky or not since, well, most people are still inexperienced...let's see what happens after nationals.

The point of my post was that, well, this is Raphael Discussion...I made a post and the thread grew 2 pages in a day...sounds like discussion to me!

Str8 up fo' shizzle word, like WOAH!
 
Piggy and Egg are are veterans of the game and speaking truth. Don't theory-craft and miss out on what their experience has to offer.
 
Belial said:
Piggy: If you're not familiar with people hitting blank buttons against somebody who tries to read it than you've never been to any serious tournament. Its quite common, actually, especially when you're otg and your opp is trying a wake up.

sorry I misread your post and read 3 instead of b

236B is -17 its totally not safe. The rest is, well, really hard to use, except SEA B that's also risky.

Sorry for misunderstanding - Raphs wakeups are nothing good compared to many other characters, still they are not so bad as most people think. I believe his wakeups are poor but not non existant, at least he has mid thats safe and hits otg and rolls.

angelic: I wish my opponents did as much -17 unsafe moves regularly. :)
for VE B:B I didnt give that much time but even koreans who constantly hit mad difficult stuff fail that JF pretty often. maybe Im wrong, need other opinions here.

I cant see whats so great about having stuns? they look cool? if 4B would launch instead that wouldnt change a thing. stun = CH for me. b/c you can bait for CH. b/c you cant deal damage without CH or would deal less dmg w/o CH. Otherwise it doesnt matter if its a stun. And his only real CH stun is prep A. see above. Astaroth has strong stuns. not Raph.
Click to expand...


ummm dude VE B:B is mashable
 
piggy: I'm not sure what i've done to offend you so much, but if you feel this way - it cant be helped. Just that you know I dont think you're a scrub and believe your points are valid. Like you requested I withdraw from further discussion on matters other than raphael. though it all originated from my list of his strengths/weaknesess.
 
Indeed, back to more basic Raph discussion!

Belial said:

pros:
- Evade and TC are among the best in the game (44B/4B). his TJ 44K is also good.
- Relatively strong throws
- Great range
- Great SS puishment with 22_88~VE B:B (60+ wakeups)
- Very strong vs low level opponents due to prep A
- Good gauge damage

cons:
- relatively difficult to learn (I know sounds funny, but most new players have trouble with stances and start ctying its useless also Raph needs a difficult JF to be good (VE B:B))
- Very weak against step
- Very limited options at a high level
- Highly unsafe
- Poor wakeups (66A+B and or 1K_2K are probably the most you can get)
- weak unsafety punishment
- weak WS punishment
- poor post-GI (throwing is generally best you get compared to... 236B/33k:B/66B?)
- Very weak auto-GI (4A+B can be re-GI'ed, 8A+B low dmg high risk)
- Poor risk reward on mix ups (this includes prep and VE of course)
Click to expand...


This is a pretty good list. I would add WS B to your list of good TC moves and mention 6K with TJ, and that he has decent whiff punish to is Pros (236B doesn't to tons of damage, but with its range and speed, it is useable).

I would also add to your cons that he has crap for RO potential

But this list is pretty solid.
 
um raphs horizontals actually have a use OMG

they are very good for spacing 3A and 6A although unsafe can space like a bitch'

also because there fast but unsafe i sudgest using them as pokes
 
I'm with Belial here...Raph's horizontal moves are pretty terrible (this has always been a problem). They are slow and steppable. The only zontals I generally use are 44AB_ and 2A (WS A if they are pretty far away)...If Raph had a decent horizontal mid (Prep D, A anyone?) then he would almost be worth using on purpose.
 
Don't bring up Prep D, A. It hurts too much to miss that move. And we thought we didn't have horizontals THEN.
 
Sorry Huda...you should have come to the fairfax tournament, we could have pined together!

Was it you that was talking about 22K before? I tried throwing into my game for a bit and just found it to not be quite as useful as 22B...In what situations do you use this move? What does it set up?
 
It's a slow high that covers step (I'm not sure how well, but it's i23, so you won't be catching an opponent with it repeatedly), and gives decent rewards on CH. That's really all there is to it.
 
piggy said:
Sorry Huda...you should have come to the fairfax tournament, we could have pined together!

Was it you that was talking about 22K before? I tried throwing into my game for a bit and just found it to not be quite as useful as 22B...In what situations do you use this move? What does it set up?
Click to expand...
I didn't know you were going to be there, I heard there was someone playing raph but couldn't think of who it might be.

I use 22K when opponents are fond of stepping once they force me to block something relatively safe up close. I guess they figure that's the best way of avoiding his stuff in order to get to his side/back. On counter hit it gives one of his best guaranteed combos and if you buffer it towards the direction they're stepping to often times you will catch them with it. Like most of his stuff it's not solid but for a safe semi-tracking move to lead to a good combo is something you gotta use from time to time.
 
Baltimore has a weekly on weds nights (i have to work or I would have been there with Jer), other than that I'm not sure.
 
Hope you guys can connect. Hey guys if we do vids (us in colorado) this weekend Ill try to get some matchs of me playing Raph. :) I cant say how good it will be though :p.
 
we'll say it was good here, but in PMs we'll trash the crap out of you!

haHA!

There is a vid somewhere of me dominating Justin Wong with Raph at a tourney...fun fun times hahaha
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom