Raphael media =/

i can t get why....


22B seems unsafe (and lost any followup)
33KB seems unsafer than sc4 and have the same whiff issues
44K is unreliable as sc4
3B became high
no prepB delayed B tracking
AA seems still slow
wrA still slow
1K seems weaker
BTB i saw whiffs a lot even without any step

CE seems really strong.
i saw some slow prep options that will be strong as long as people doesn t learn how to block them and a new dash lateral move.

I can t seem to understand what the new 44B will GI

I ignore most new moves

what did he get to become "stronger"? i saw almost only nerfs from sc4 :/ (and a lot of 2As that is not a good sign).
 
if 3B is really a mid at least he could be decent....it seemed to me they changed it to a high >.>
Though 22B its too slow to be unsafe :| without VE entry it will hurt raphael potential a lot.
 
darkfender said:
if 3B is really a mid at least he could be decent....it seemed to me they changed it to a high >.>
Though 22B its too slow to be unsafe :| without VE entry it will hurt raphael potential a lot.
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The greatest thing about the VE transition in SC4 was the 60 NH damage. Otherwise, on block, you'll eat a CH horizontal (could really hurt) which doesn't nearly compensate for the ability to reduce (not eliminate) verticals from punishing you by remaining in VE and waiting out to hold guard.
 
was hitconfirmable.
You could stop to avoid punishments or gamble on the opponent trying to punish and CH him.
VE also gave options against step/verticals....it was safer, more ranged, difficult to step and to punish.

At tip it wasn t so easy to punish at least in my experience....

Any news on 4K? i didn t see it used at all :|
 
darkfender said:
was hitconfirmable.
You could stop to avoid punishments or gamble on the opponent trying to punish and CH him.
VE also gave options against step/verticals....it was safer, more ranged, difficult to step and to punish.
Click to expand...

Are you telling me you can hit confirm whether or not to choose between 22B and 22(B) because i highly doubt that. I'm not saying that the VE transition was useless defensively (as opposed to just not going into VE and taking that -14) but its effectiveness was it 60 NH damage on hit.

If the VE transition on block was better (so that i17 won't trade with VE B) then it would be much better at maintaining some pressure despite being blocked (I'd put the situation like raph's 6B(B) on block imo).
 
WTF is this 3b is a high junk? 3b is mid as fuck lol, cmon son.

Also I'm pretty sure 22b will give some form of meterless damage on normal hit. I didn't see THAT much difference between normal and CH stuns. Even if it does just give you a 3a, so what? They're pushed away and at a disadvantage, that's perfect for Raph.
 
KowtowRobinson said:
WTF is this 3b is a high junk? 3b is mid as fuck lol, cmon son.

Also I'm pretty sure 22b will give some form of meterless damage on normal hit. I didn't see THAT much difference between normal and CH stuns. Even if it does just give you a 3a, so what? They're pushed away and at a disadvantage, that's perfect for Raph.
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i saw early raph vids where opponent evaded 3B ducking >.> maybe it was a visual issue and evaded due to range but it happened twice and it seemed really an high.

Another evasion is prep A+B that dunno how its done in scV but seems to start from neutral....it had some uses in sc4.


@wuht: option at tip were:
22(B), VE (and maybe K)
22(B), A
22(B), B
22(B), B:B

In lot of situations the potential followups prevented opponent to punish easily, most of all because it were not to use on purpose on block, but when you missed a hit at least you weren t doomed to get punished....

22B is too slow to land it 100%
 
one last thing...
I saw his new dashing horizontal...

Did i see wrong or does it hit grounded opponents?

What new options does raph has against superTC?
 
darkfender said:
one last thing...
I saw his new dashing horizontal...

Did i see wrong or does it hit grounded opponents?

What new options does raph has against superTC?
Click to expand...

you need to quote times in youtube videos links buddy.

The only new fully true animations I've seen on Raph are:

SE K
Prep A+B
 
darkfender said:
@wuht: option at tip were:
22(B), VE (and maybe K)
22(B), A
22(B), B
22(B), B:B

In lot of situations the potential followups prevented opponent to punish easily, most of all because it were not to use on purpose on block, but when you missed a hit at least you weren t doomed to get punished....

22B is too slow to land it 100%
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You know what though? If the person knew how to fight Raph, and they blocked 22B in SC4, you were getting punished. So it's not something you could just throw out there anyway. Maybe against people online or people that don't know, you can get away with those VE "mixups" but we kind of have to worry about those people on a case by case basis. You can't assume "ok I can use this as a mixup even though it's unsafe" but if you see it working on someone, you can make an adjustment. Likewise, if you see someone not punishing SC5's 22b properly (is it even unsafe? have we tested this?) then you can make that same case specific judgement of "ok maybe I can take more risks with this move now."

Go back and watch some of these vids. Pick out some things about Raph that you think are strong, that you think are positives. Don't worry about the downside for now, just try to find something you think that is GOOD. I want to see if you can do it.
 
not true 22B at tip was not autopunish....it had a mixup in most matchups...its unsafe if 22B,B:B is blocked and that is really autopunish but not 22B, VE or 22B,B..

For the same reason new BBB is better than old BB (i hope BB will be safer having a -12 BB really hurts -.-)

Things i used most with raph were untouched it seems except 22B :( but they are all more linear than before if possible...

@wuht the last video in this thread (ivy vs raphael) 1:35 after stunning with 33B (old command dunno if changed) it does an attack that visually seems to track left and hit grounded.
 
darkfender said:
not true 22B at tip was not autopunish....it had a mixup in most matchups...its unsafe if 22B,B:B is blocked and that is really autopunish but not 22B, VE or 22B,B..
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I'm only talking about how the VE transition is not a loss on block , as we're not talking about attacking and "hoping" it'll hit (because you'll HAVE to go to VE in order to triple the damage).
If you know your attack has a high chance of just being blocked (like what we're discussing) or even whiffing, lets just isolate it to such a scenario.

I hate theory debating about SC4 like this be here we go:
22B at tip is pretty much safe to anything over i14 (so that is only a few characters who could reach him).
22(B)~VE is safe to most verts, but you're open to 66A and other SAFE horizontals from other members of the cast. Its not easy, but I don't see the risk of doing so outweighing the possible benefit of you evading one of their 3Bs or something.

22(B)~VE B:B will trade with anything slower than i17 and will CH for 40 damage against non TCing moves for anything slower. Too bad simply AA/BB spam will beat it for most characters (which is what they do cuz its completely safe for them) while its free movelist if your VE B:B is blocked. I'm not saying the entry is useless, but I honestly dont see how you can preach that it was a "strong option".

Lastly, anything other than point blank range, 22B (blocked) into 44B will manage to dodge both hits of BB from most opponents. Sure u guys already know that (or that it didn't matter now).



@wuht the last video in this thread (ivy vs raphael) 1:35 after stunning with 33B (old command dunno if changed) it does an attack that visually seems to track left and hit grounded.
Click to expand...
That is not a horizontal. That is his 1B (which was in SC2 and SC3) which is a ground hitting vertical.
 
:( i hoped we get a new horizontal...
Lets hope at least 66A will track 100% and not only at tip.

P.S. u forgot 22(B)~VE B
 
Q_Q but i don t know how was sc2 4A ......
its hard to understand reference to sc2 cause i really don t recall anything from that game....(i was spamming 1a with mitsu then).
 
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