Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

About giving up on Raphael:

Didn't the other characters got severely nerfed as well?

And though this patch may hurt at first, since it's a nerf, it will probably be regarded as good, balanced thing later. Raphael did become more complex. You can't just use his top 3 moves willy nilly, anymore. This will force Raph players into a more varied and stylish type of play. I'm just hoping the same will apply to other members of the cast.

In the end, you need at least a couple of moves that force a good player to say "I need to account for ______" in order to be viable. He doesn't have that anymore. The threat of a move like 22B opened up these other "complex" strategies that he had. But if you don't have those one or two dominant tools to make them respect and fear, then you won't be able to open up your game more against good players.

The 22B nerf itself isn't that bad, but not being able to land 3B EX series isn't just about the damage. It's about the mixup he got afterwards, it's about positioning, it's about setting up his wall game, etc. All tools that he still has in theory, but he can't apply them if he doesn't have anything to lead into that. Can he get that EX elsewhere? Yes. But it doesn't come off moves that good players are all that concerned about.

To use a Cervy example, iGDR is cool and all but his game isn't just about landing it or not landing it. It's about having that threat open at all times, and using the threat of iGDR to open up other aspects of his game. Raph could do that with 22B, now he can't.
 
I was about to adopt a second character anyway. I was set to do it after I finished my training regine, which was:

1- to face each style in Advanced Quick Battle

2- use Training mode to study a style's move list and face the style on Very Hard VS, then move to the next style

Right after finishing my training against Patsuka (arbitrarily the last), the patch came along. Now, before moving to a second character, I wanna re-learn Raph.

For the second character I'm considering Ezio or ZWEI. Both got exclusively buffed - I was thinking of them since release, though, cause they're new and I like their style. I even considered Maxi as a pragmatic choice for second character, pre-patch, but I guess he was the most nerfed I've seen, so, no dice for him.

And btw, I'm shocked Nightmare's 66B got buffed (kinda off-topic/out of the blue stuff, sry xD).

Guess this post got kinda egocentric. Sorry.
 
Well, time for my own story, I suppose. Got to play Raphael with patch just now... honestly, it wasn't THAT bad, even with backstep changes. He's still my strongest character (that can be either a good thing or a really, really bad thing...). Spacing is still the name of game for him, personally.

Weird thing, I think the removal of the 22B->3B combo is actually helping my game overall, since now I use the B series more, and am more wall-conscious (22B->3A W! etc. etc.). Currently working 4B] in. Also, I vastly underestimated FC 3B's range... shit!
 
Loved your avatar, RTOwn.

I think we gotta think about trying to 66B after we step people (the run version, kinda like 2236B). It should consume 3 more frames than good old 22B (plus possible extra frames for the extra input). I wonder if it will "track" as well or hit them fast enough. Even pre-patch this worked well vs Aeon kamikaze dives from flight (22B wouldn't connect).

Another option after a step would be 4B. Very slightly faster than the option above (1 frame, and it prolly would also have a quicker input). But this wouldn't hit guys in TC, and if blocked wouldn't be as good 66B, I think.

I'm talking about no meter. Now, If you're close, and you have meter for 1 BE, 33K(BE) 2B ain't bad. If you're not close, meter for one BE won't help much after stepping.
 
I like 66B after step for the reasons you listed, and its pushback! Personally prefer Raphael to be at greatest range possible during a fight...

Speaking of meter, that's probably where I'm falling very short with Raph. I rarely ever use it - usually I keep it for Re-GIs and CEs. 33KBE is an input I still need to work on, and to incorporate its use in a match... had it down in SCIV (well, no BEs but you get what I mean), but SCV is a bit different after step!

As for 4B], I will be using this only when I really know a horizontal is coming. It has good range, sure, but a miss and you're done for, it seems.

SE may have taken a hit, but if you use it at the correct range, you can avoid some mid horizontals and kicks. The CPU certainly knows how to use it... got my ass handed to me trying to interrupt Prep/SE shenanigans a few times!
 
I got Raph's good ol' 22B, 3 BB(BE) to connect on a back-turned Z.W.E.I. during a fight earlier, so if you can get behind perhaps a large enough opponent you can still obtain that stabby satisfaction...
 
Okay, to be fair that was a larger custom Z.W.E.I., but I just tested it and it doesn't even work on astaroth... So I have no clue how it happened =(
 
So, I did CH 22K a bunch of times, into 3B prep BBB, and the new CH effect for prep BBB didn't go off, even after the stun. Way to fail, Namco.
-DC:sc5nm1:
 
. Instead of 4B Prep A 3B BBB:B from SC4, we can now do 4B Prep BBB followed by 6B series or 3B Prep B series!!

have you actually tried ? The only move I could connect with is either CE, 66A+B or 2B. You could 2K or 1A but those are inferior options.

What this means it that Raph gets slightly better damage of a 4(B) combo and slightly worse damage off a 22K combo.

However, the biggest hit is that if you counterhit people with prepBBB becuase they didnt' respect raph's prep-entry frames, you just plain lose 6 damage. So overall this a nerf more than a buff considering the big picture.
 
Okay, to be fair that was a larger custom Z.W.E.I., but I just tested it and it doesn't even work on astaroth... So I have no clue how it happened =(
22B has some weirdness going on. In training I managed to follow up with basically every i16 at one point or another, but the only consistent moves were ones already mentioned.
 
I had it happen once, I was in session, pretty sure against Ezio at the time. Just lucky, I guess.
 
Yeah the CH of PrepBBB doesn't stun after CH22K. I guess it's because the stun animation for CH22K is the same as that of the third hit of PrepBBB; when they crumple forward
 
22B > 3A wasn't working for me. Is it working for you guys?

Editing the combo sticky is gonna be high comedy lol.
As with what Fendante said, 22B->3A works for me. I don't think I've encountered a situation where 3A has whiffed due to angle (as opposed to distance).

TOTAL RAGE
As for you... I don't know who you are, but
1) This is the Raphael SA and you failed to mention anything specifically related to him in your post.
2) If you're upset, you can do a lot more about it rather than just ranting to us on fan forums that cannot do anything about the problems you have. I will say this time and time again... NAMCO are the game designers, not us.
3) As I've told others... control your anger. You can do far better things than just rant. Try using some of that energy to find in-game fixes to flaws you perceive (e.g. whatever Viola nonsense you're spouting).
4) If Viola truly is "SCIV Hilde broken", one of three things will happen: NAMCO will patch her again, the community will ban her from tournament play (this has happened before...), or for once people will grow up and deal with it. I played Yun in SCIV and had no fear about playing a good Hilde.
5) If you are a fool and do not wish to listen to my suggestions, then we all welcome your vacancy from our lives.

Now please... back to Raphael.
 
You CAN land A+B A after the new stun but it's inconsistent.
Yeah I have had trouble connecting A+BA even up close. 66B+K only seems to work under specific conditions as well. :( I can't seem to get 3A to work consistently either, but maybe I'm just too slow on the input?

Getting away from 22B, how has the change to backdash affected how you play? I got bodied last night online because I'd grown used to guard cancelling, but maybe there's some way to use it to our advantage? :/
 
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