Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

I haven't really touched Raph since the patch (I've been practicing with ZWEI), but you guys have kind of inspired me to come back. I'm wondering how fast he gains meter now and if it is really viable to use his meter for 33K BE and CE. I don't remember really having a problem with meter when I just used it on Prep BB BE, so Raph might have a quick meter gain.
 
youngfox said:
another thing to remember is that 33kBE has the exact same range as 22b as well, dont sleep on this move
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Reeeaaaally?! I'd be shocked if they actually have the same range. I think 22B has a much bigger range. Are you taking the steps into the math? I mean, 33 steps a little closer than 22... maybe that's why you're thinking 33K has the same range of 22B. My mind is still open, btw.
 
I'll check it out. Thx. BTW, I was unlucky enough so that one time the 33K Guard Bursted and the other hit whiffed, cause of that matrix Guard Burst animation, it was almost as if the guy was using SE to dodge the attack... lol
 
youngfox said:
yea that probably the biggest drawback to 33kBE. if the first hit breaks then the secound will always whiff
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I've had the 2nd hit whiff a LOT unless the first hit is blocked up close. VERY close. Did they fix that in the patch or something? I really didn't stick around long enough to test, I had iGDRs to grind in practice mode lol.
 
While I am just a baby, I dont know how I feel about using SE K extensively :(, I find being in the range for SE K even hitting is usually bad for my hp bar... And also 33kBE has the same range as 22b? Are you sure about that :O? Also, I too landed the old 22b, 3(b) combo on I forget who; it reminded me of the old days... and I got sad :(
 
33kBE is definately less range than 22B, but the move was more reliable than 22B up-close prepatch believe it or not (due to the stupid crumple alignment).


I think i can count the number of times i've thrown out SE K with 1 hand so far. Then again, I used to abuse the 0 on block with SE A so maybe that shouldn't discourage you.
 
start training mode and take a step forward, you hit with both the tip of 22b and 33kBE.if you step too much then the tip of 22b will miss and 33kBE should still connect
 
Well SE K only serves one purpose, to make them duck for SE B combos. Since there's not much reason to fear it on hit, the only reason it works is because SE K is punishable, so guarding the move appeals to greedy punish freaks. You have to draw the behavior out of them, make them forget about SE B and use it to their disadvantage.

Not that you get many chances to set up SE with 1.02 Raph, though. 22B was once useful for that, but now you have to put yourself at even greater risk if you want to use SE.
 
yea so while 33kbe range is gd i was mistaken bout it being the same as 22b, my apologies. i was testing against a fat character. also playing that keep away game and keeping your meter for CE has being working wonders for me. 22b becomes a threat and seb is half life
 
Fendante said:
To be honest, Im not a big fan of SE. The Prep sidestep was way better imo for Raph's style. Too bad...it all started with a useless teleport, which I call the "fake" Strigoi Envelopment. The real one back in SC3 could dodge ALL horizontals and verticals and even kicks (D and L form) AND Raph had manual VE (it was A+B back then). Not only could he sidestep in Prep but he could do the same thing after VE. How awesome is that!!! Unfortunately, 6A+BA became A+BA so they made B+K manual VE, A+K stupid teleport, and replaced Prep sidestep with SE. The result??? Raph's evasion badly nerfed!!! No more AE, no more sidestep, and no more hop evade. Now in SCV, they made a hybrid of teleport and VE, necro form, which is cool that he dodges verticals (no kicks though) and can teleport next to them even from a distance and do VE A. Cool but useless against chain attacks and horizontals. A+K does nothing. Another big nerf. Im not expecting any changes to these issues if they have a second final patch but in SC6, Im going to work hard to make sure they give Raph back his old evade options. Raph is supposed to be an evasive character and they messed up badly. Namco you better do something cuz fans are pissed!!!
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I disagree. I think the changes were very good. The SC3 Raph could turn the fight into a silly mind game. Now luck and guessing have a far lesser role, because if you try to guess, you need to be very especific in order to get some reward from it. Plus, SC3 evasion of horizontal mids was ridiculous, he dodged them as if they were verticals - the attacks were right through him. The 'more manual' type of dodges are much more skillful.

PrettyLady said:
Quick question, can 236b connect after 22b :O? If so, thatd be cool :D
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No. It misses by a lot, like... 5 frames.
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Biggest issue with 33k(BE) isn't the range of the K, but the range of the second hit. It's quite common that the guy blocks or even eats the first strike, but the second whiffs. This attack is good after you step at close range or when you're doing oki, running 'on top' of your opponent as he is getting up, fearing a throw.
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And I love SE K. I think it was one of the greatest buffs Raph ever had, since SC2. If I'm close enough, I usually go for it.
 
PrettyLady said:
... Awwwwwww :(. Guess I'm just gonna have to keep throwing that move out inappropriately I guess..
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Try to use it only when you can CE as a follow up. If you don't have the meter, try to replace 22B by 66B. Using 22B is indeed very hard, now. It took me 100+ battles vs the AI to become decent at it, and I still miss a lot a of follow ups.
 
Yeah two questions from me. 1. Does anyone know the frame changes and such to Raph's nerfed and buffed moves by how much cause I bought the bible cause I really wanted it and a hell of a hard time finding it till yesterday? And 2. Compared to SCV Raph, how was SCIII and SCIV Raph in terms of damage, tier placement, moves and other info?
 
Thats one of the main things I've been working on, punishing whiffs with it I mean. Its probably my favorite raph move because its cool looking :3. Also, I find myself replacing my previous spamming of 22b for pressure with 66b/66(b). I Dont know why but I feel like I'm underutilizing that move.
 
Fendante said:
As you stated, SC3 Raph revolved around guessing games..well you still have to guess when using SE. Prep 4 can aGI all verticals but is vulnerable to a long range horizontal. Don't forget that it lasts at least 19 frames and even with advantage, you can get hit. Raph can longer autoevade lows and mids. I still like A+K to evade horizontals and B+K to evade verticals along with sidestep in Prep. That's enough for me.
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The guessing is much smaller, now. You can use Prep 4 as a spacing tool, for instance. And I thing range is one the less 'guessable' and most skillful things in the game. The aGI may come out as bonus. Same with SE, you may intend to have access to it's great attacks and end up dodging a high as a bonus. And let us remember Prep evades highs automatically if you're idle in it.

Basically, the guy trying to play the guessing game should have the odds against him and should only prevail if he can predict his opponent with a big degree of especificity. In SC3, you could play guess and deal more damage than you will get for being punished when you missed. The random count was in the favor of the gambler, which makes the overall gameplay experience less skillful.

I think SC4 evade system was OK. I like the changes in 5 not necessarily because they better, but more like because they are refreshing and at least equally good the system we had in 4.

Fendante said:
SE K is good...but be careful with the -13 on guard. They can punish with i11 to i13 moves. If they start blocking it consistently, switch to SE B which can easily catch them as they duck, forgetting about it and thinking you would go for SE K again.
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Oh, yeah! To me, this is still it's main purpose. Landing SE B combos is extremely satisfying :)

Fendante said:
@PrettyLady: To avoid throwing out 236B inappropriately, use it to punish your opponent's whiffed attacks from range. Also, if you know a move that is really unsafe (at least -20 on guard), you can use it as a punishing move. Do not randomly use it here and there as it could whiff and you would be open for an attack.
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Nice tips. I guess (really just guess) he meant 22B as the move she was using inapropriately. Wild guess by me {EDIT: after seeing her new post... I guess I was wrong xD}. Also, 3(B)A(B) deals more damage than 236b, if you're close. There is no KND, but you enter Prep well.
 
Wild guess by me. Also, 3(B)A(B) deals more damage than 236b, if you're close
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:D thats why I like using 236b, i feel like I get crapped on up close, and many times when I try 3(b), a (b) it whiffs because I misjudge distance.
 
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