Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

[Vigo]

Yep they simply nerfed BB without compensation.

 

[Mr.Hai]

Anyone have a methodolgy for using BBB vs 3B. 3B has better range and is a better punisher, so I've been ignoring BBB. BB is better on block (with no prep) but 3B does more damage on NH with 3~BB and CH BBB does about the same damage as 3~AB on NH.

 

[WuHT]

BBB = better for CH fishing and thats about it. After SE B on block, or if you know the opponent likes to attack after eating moves like wrB, AA, 3A on NH.. etc.

It does comparable damage to 3(B)~prepAB, without being range reliant.

 

[Solid_Altair]

My question, therefore, is how can I improve my gameplay? I can't upload videos unfortunately, but I'm really just looking for general tips for how to play him and how to practice.

What else can I do to improve, and how can I practice putting these skills in my game? Keep in mind, I mainly play online, and when I have access to other players they don't really know how to play.

First of all, why can't you upload videos, mate? If you play online, I think you should be able to upload your videos. Anyway, from what you told me, the videos wouldn't add much to what you've already said in the thread. You did a good job in exposing your difficulties. Here are some advices:

1- Play vs the AI. Seriously.

In Quick Battle you have a good variety of AIs that are quite close to human players style. When you play this a bunch and it starts to get easy, try only Advanced AIs. And the ones with a high rating of Horizontal Movement will provide you with an awesome exercise as to how to deal with Raph's main weaknesses.Doing this against every style in the game will help you getting aqcuainted with the game.

Then, after playing a bunch of these, play against the Very Hard VS AI. I also suggest you go into practice and check the enemy's move list and how to react to them, before having a Very Hard session against said character.

This was my training regime. It took quite a while. And you don't need to wait for it to end, before playing online. You can alternate between online play and this offline play.

2- Don't see Prep as a stance you want get into, kinda like, "I wanna go into Prep, now, to mess up with my opponent!" (like SCIV Yun's Crane... how I loved that!) Prep isn't one of these stances you can simply go into. You shouldn't aspire to go into Prep. Prep just happens.

WuHT already told you about your key punishments on block. (I'd just add that 3(B)A(B) deals more damage at -20, if you're close enough). Well, most of these punishments lead to Prep, on hit, with +10. These are good Prep entries (obviously).

Sometimes you will also use 6B... or 3(B) kinda like panic buttons. The 6B ain't so bad a panic button, because of it's speed and because you can nail the BE after it. 3(B) sucks as a panic button or poke. You do have other options, like BB, and 2B (a safe one) if you wanna trade blocked attacks. I'm loosing track, here... lol... what I mean is that you may enter Prep on block sometimes and you should realize it's not a good thing and that you should be happy if you don't get smacked for it. These entries on block tend to happen when you set up verticals with horizontals and you're so happy your opponent is no longer stepping, that you use 3(B) when he is likely to block, so you can get sometihng out of Prep, even with the odds sort of against ya.

3- Learn to use Prep 4. I tended to panic and SE after a bad Prep entry. It may work very well, but your opponent will hardly throw a high move when you're in Prep. So, your general best option after a bad Prep entry is to perform Prep 4 (tap, don't hold the 4). They are likely to throw Bs at ya, and Prep 4 is quite likely to aGI, them (see the last videos I posted, if you want a reference).

Also, Prep 4 may evade a lot of stuff, which is it's main use. It may give you the oppotunity to use Prep K on tip range, so that you end your Prep kinda safely, on his block. You may Prep 4 again. You can SE. Or you can catch them with the faster attacks, including the Bb(BE), if they try to run torwards you and attack.

I took a long time to condition myself to perform Prep 4 after a bad Prep entry. Getting rid of the SE habit was hard. And after you make the Prep 4 your 'go to', you can start mixing things up. Some of my videos vs Ivy have examples of my opponent trying (successfully) high horizontals against my Prep 4... then I SE (instead of Prep 4) on later occasions and dodge the high attack :)

4- Use Prep K. On hit against a good anti-Raph game, Prep K should be your 'go to' option. For some reason, this is very counter-intuitive and I think this issue makes Raph seem a lot weaker to Raph players. So, after your opponent eats a few Prep Ks on counter hit, while trying to Tech you (mostly duck and attack)... they'll start to block against your Prep, so you can use SE.

Against guys who don't know how to deal with Preparation/SE, simply use SE shenannigans when you enter Prep on hit. If they really suck vs Prep or are just overwhelmed in the situation, you may SE aggressively even after you enter Prep on block.

These are my main tips, for now. Sorry for the length :p

 

[Solid_Altair]

Prep is great on hit, but in general, attacking at a disadvantage is a bad plan no matter what; and we all recognize prep is risky on block.
Against raph, if one is hit by an entry move, attacking is never a good option, the risk reward situation is considreably improved by just blocking the followup.

Actually, if they block against your Prep they become vulnerable against the SE mix up. On hit, the best standard reaction for them is to duck and use a TC. You are supposed to disencourage that with your Prep K. Then, they'll start to block and you'll be able to use SE. If they're blocking, you should be happy.

The ability to re-enter Prep/counter/evade seems to suggest using the threat of Prep to force a reaction (even on block). This worked in 4 as you could BB/SEA B repeatedly until they tried to: evade/counter (SEA and Prep A) or they froze up (SEB and VE). Comparing Prep to other stances is not clear cut, as Prep doesn't force the same type of mixup as say Mist, Prep requires the opponent to become overwhelmed by the options; which we lack to a degree; instead of the opponent guessing to block your 50/50, as with many mixup stances, you have to guess the opponents actions in trying to escape.

Dude... SCV SE K is the answer. That's your mix up right there. Of course, you may need to set up your SE, by using Prep K when you enter Prep on hit.

By lackluster I don't mean the moves are bad per se, but considering what we supposedly excel in compared to other characters (verticals), they could be more powerful while still keeping us in mid tier:
3B - Less damage than in 4. Still a decent poke, with good range and pushback, but not tooastounding.

What would you like to add to it? I actually think this move is indirectly 'buffed' by Prep 4. So, I'm OK with it.

1A - Negative on block and hit, 10 dmg, i20. Its tracking makes it pretty much a vertical move (meaning we should get some kind of a buff). Raph doesn't have good lows, but this move seems too weak.

I think I gotta do some test in regards to it's tracking. I'm satisfied for now but it may be just that I'm lucky or using this move on good set ups. I do think it should track well, at least to one side.

Prep A+B - Slow, linear and unsafe. Compare to Nightmare 2A+B (or even our old 2A+B). Moves from stance tend to be more powerful or quicker than standard moves due to the natural restriction.While it does evade and has the best voice clip in the game, the risk reward is fairly low, as it can be easily blocked and stepped for a punish. Essentially, this move suffers the same issues as the old Prep~A+B.

It does evade. That's how it is supposed to be used, with the obvious exception of 66(B)A+B. You can also use it like... once in a life time, so their muscle memory may sort of forget to block low. Using at long range when they're scared of your Prep K so they don't step the Prep A+B. Using it after Prep 4 seems particularly promissing. But, overall, this is a move to be used rarely. And it's damage makes it OK on my books.

44B - In 4 this move was amazing, it tracked, "TJ" and was safe. Now, it does not track, is slow, and is unsafe (-16). Mistu's, by comparison, is safer (<-12), more damaging, rings out, and can cancel into stance. It could be argued that it has less range, but raph is supposed to have greater range at the cost of horizontals. I'm not sure of the hitbox issue that was mentioned, but I have been grabebd out of this move a couple of times.

44B does have TC, right? I'm satisfied with it.

About Mitsu's 4B (good comparison, btw)... it's the move against which I have most difficulty in the game. All I can say to comfort my self is that the 4B input prevents Mitsu from performing the move when he is already back stepping or running back, while Raph may do 44B at will.

Prep K - If it could beat out non vert TC attacks from block it would very helpfull. As it stands people should not be getting hit by this.

Can you please refrase this one? I think I didn't understand it.

Is it just me or does our SA like to write essays?

I tend to write big posts pretty much everywhere xD Some of my posts in the EA Sports MMA forum are really extremely long. And I do tend to make them as short as I can.

 

[Mr.Hai]

On hit, the best standard reaction for them is to duck and use a TC. You are supposed to disencourage that with your Prep K. Then, they'll start to block and you'll be able to use SE.

http://8wayrun.com/threads/preparation-prep-a-prep-primer.12559/
Attacking at a disadvantage is rarely a good idea. If your opponents are trying to beat Prep on hit, they are blinking red or don't know Prep. Walk through the risk reward or attacking vs blocking vs prep on hit vs on block; blocking is the best option if hit. Prep K is fast on hit (when the opponent should be blocking) and slow on block (when the opponent should be attacking).

Actually, if they block against your Prep they become vulnerable against the SE mix up.

See the issue is SE is supposed to make people freeze up vs Prep, but the only way to get to SE is to have people freeze up (and evading). If I recall there is a match of hudathan vs fetz, where fetz interupts SE almost every time on reaction (I also assume he didn't know the matchup very well). Blocking to exploit the opponents oppenings/overextending is not the same as freezing up on block, somthing that as raph players we know.

 

[Leonyx]

Alright I'll merge it.

If the move you're blocking is -16 and leaves them really close, 3(B)~prepA(B)~prep is a really good punish for almost 50 damage plus prep entry. Examples are blocking pyrrha's 236B or alpha pat's FC3aB.

There really isn't a choice for punishing. i12 = 6BB/6B(B) i16 = 3(B) combo depending on range. i20 = 236B. Those are your key frames.

Thanks for that. I guess I didn't fully understand punishing which is sort of depressing, but at least I know where to start.

Important snip

Thanks for the reply! I can't upload videos because I play on the 360 (it's the only system I have access to regularly) and as far as I know the Xbox doesn't have the option to upload like the PS3 does. Let me know if it does though, so I can show you how bad I am, hehe.

I'm definitely going to start playing the AI. I'm going to be doing that and spending an extensive amount of time in Training so I stop making stupid mistakes.

I've been treating Prep just as you said: I think of it as the ideal position to be in. I guess now that I think about it, there's not much of a benefit on block. I'm still not quite sure what I should be doing after I get in with advantage though. I've been using SE after. Is that right?

I have been trying to use Prep 4 after I mess up, but I tend to enter Prep with the mentality of using Prep 4, so I end up using it no matter what. For example, I'll get 3(B) off, but since I was planning on using Prep 4, I use that instead of hitting the combo. I suppose that's because of my Prep mentality issue, my lack of true character understanding, and my slow reaction time.

I've been trying to use Prep K too, but I don't really know how to use it. I'm guessing you would use it after a good Prep entry and if a player was particularly aggressive. Is that correct?

 

[Solid_Altair]

http://8wayrun.com/threads/preparation-prep-a-prep-primer.12559/
Attacking at a disadvantage is rarely a good idea. If your opponents are trying to beat Prep on hit, they are blinking red or don't know Prep. Walk through the risk reward or attacking vs blocking vs prep on hit vs on block; blocking is the best option if hit. Prep K is fast on hit (when the opponent should be blocking) and slow on block (when the opponent should be attacking).

See the issue is SE is supposed to make people freeze up vs Prep, but the only way to get to SE is to have people freeze up (and evading). If I recall there is a match of hudathan vs fetz, where fetz interupts SE almost every time on reaction (I also assume he didn't know the matchup very well). Blocking to exploit the opponents oppenings/overextending is not the same as freezing up on block, somthing that as raph players we know.

That's the theory...

Bottom line is you worry about people reading and intecepting SE consistently. Did I understand? If so... I don't think I've run into one of these, yet.

And, btw, I got steamrolled by a fellow Brazilian. He beat the crap out of me with 5 different characters. Told me he even plays a few more, including Raph. I'll ask him for some mirror matches, later. Well, not even this guy intercepted SE on reaction. We went 10 to 2 (and one of my victories had a laggy moment that went my way).

Thanks for that. I guess I didn't fully understand punishing which is sort of depressing, but at least I know where to start.

I'm still not quite sure what I should be doing after I get in with advantage though. I've been using SE after. Is that right?

I have been trying to use Prep 4 after I mess up, but I tend to enter Prep with the mentality of using Prep 4, so I end up using it no matter what. For example, I'll get 3(B) off, but since I was planning on using Prep 4, I use that instead of hitting the combo. I suppose that's because of my Prep mentality issue, my lack of true character understanding, and my slow reaction time.

I've been trying to use Prep K too, but I don't really know how to use it. I'm guessing you would use it after a good Prep entry and if a player was particularly aggressive. Is that correct?

Punishing is about attacking your opponent when they cannot defend. The punishment on block (or after blocking) is one of the most common and sistematically understood. If a guy uses an unsafe move against you and you block, you oughta know how many frames you got to hit him before he can block. And then, use the option that gets you the bigger reward. And this should cover many of your Prep entries.

Yes, against guys who are not aggressive against your Prep, SE is the way to go after a good Prep entry.

That mistake you do with Prep 4 is about thinking ahead of time and not 'refreshing' your decisions. It's a matter of reaction, as you pointed out. This haunts me in many ways. Playing well, being warmed up, etc. is greatly about not making this type of mistake.

About Prep K, you're correct.

 

[Mr.Hai]

I have been trying to use Prep 4 after I mess up, but I tend to enter Prep with the mentality of using Prep 4, so I end up using it no matter what. For example, I'll get 3(B) off, but since I was planning on using Prep 4, I use that instead of hitting the combo. I suppose that's because of my Prep mentality issue, my lack of true character understanding, and my slow reaction time.

I don't think the developpers even understand Raph, and I think I could never understand Siegfried xD. Anyway I assume your problems are simply an experience factor, and not as much of a reaction time issue (I find it far more difficult to hitconfirm 6Bb(BE) or break throws).

While you cannot choose to prep (or not to prep), before you confirm a hit, you can decide the follow up in prep based on (using visual and/or audio cues) a hit or a block. In the case of 3B and 4B, BB (AB for close range 3B) will always be the best follow up on hit, so you don't have to juggle too many options.
And if you noticed a pattern in how they punish prep you can prepare an evade or interupt of choice; don't bother sticking to one if you have a better alternatives. I have a bad habit of using Prep~4 to avoid AA punishes where SE would have been far more rewarding, even after seeing the opponent use AA repreatedly.

Does anyone just let prep walk as opposed to SE against a defensive opponent? I've been doing it with mixed results, using Prep~4 as a GI and letting the AE handle the rest.

 

[WuHT]

It actually may be a reaction time problem but it should be a simple flowchart of how you plan your "hierarchy" of commands.

Take 6B(B)~prep or 6BB for instance.

1) Always assume you will get a CH and get your finger on the BE button immediately just in case. Even if you don't have meter, you may get 6BBB (only if you don't opt for prep).
2) If you see that the attack is only NH, just immediately move your finger away from the BE and get ready for plan B, which is your prep pressure for instance. This is likely just a single prepA, or a SE entry.
3) If you see your attack is on block, you gotta switch to plan C, which is either SE or prep4, which you need to make an educated guess based on your opponent's playstyle and character (do they have strong vertical or high whiff punishers)
4)If you see your attack completely whiffs,then you gotta switch to plan D, which is pretty much the same as plan C because you know you immediately need to be on the defensive.

You should always pre-plan that you'll get your full combo starter so you don't miss your opportunities. It's easier to to react to your attack being guarded, since you just need to hit guard (when in neutral). Being in prep is a little bit different because you have to choose between prep4/SE but you should already have a defensive "option" in the back of your mind to function as a guard.

 

[Gamegenie222]

So do we have a definite wants list to tweet to Daishi without sounding like greedy pigs for Raph?

 

[taffertier]

So do we have a definite wants list to tweet to Daishi without sounding like greedy pigs for Raph?

My prefered buff for Raph would be to make his 4A+B GI effect mid verticals and horizontals. For those moments i know that a mid is coming, just not which one. Pattycakes auto GI works similarly and it is a really powerful and very balanced tool of his. It's strong enough that you have to respect it but punishable enough that if you abuse it you will eat big damage for simply throwing it out.

Followed by delaying the input for prep K BE and making the second kick track.

 

[LAU]

It actually may be a reaction time problem but it should be a simple flowchart of how you plan your "hierarchy" of commands.

Take 6B(B)~prep or 6BB for instance.

1) Always assume you will get a CH and get your finger on the BE button immediately just in case. Even if you don't have meter, you may get 6BBB (only if you don't opt for prep).
2) If you see that the attack is only NH, just immediately move your finger away from the BE and get ready for plan B, which is your prep pressure for instance. This is likely just a single prepA, or a SE entry.
3) If you see your attack is on block, you gotta switch to plan C, which is either SE or prep4, which you need to make an educated guess based on your opponent's playstyle and character (do they have strong vertical or high whiff punishers)
4)If you see your attack completely whiffs,then you gotta switch to plan D, which is pretty much the same as plan C because you know you immediately need to be on the defensive.

You should always pre-plan that you'll get your full combo starter so you don't miss your opportunities. It's easier to to react to your attack being guarded, since you just need to hit guard (when in neutral). Being in prep is a little bit different because you have to choose between prep4/SE but you should already have a defensive "option" in the back of your mind to function as a guard.

more importantly always observe and remember what your opponent is doing... they may attack you even under frame disadvantage or do something 'unpredictable' that beats the options above.

example... you're playing against LX.. you hit her with 6B... she does 3B... your option 2 flowchart immediately fails big time...... and this type of option is usually more likely going to happen with good players....

-LAU

 

[WuHT]

more importantly always observe and remember what your opponent is doing... they may attack you even under frame disadvantage or do something 'unpredictable' that beats the options above.

example... you're playing against LX.. you hit her with 6B(B)... she does 3B... your option 2 flowchart immediately fails big time...... and this type of option is usually more likely going to happen with good players....

-LAU

This type of advice may be too deep for beginners though (being one of the things that separates newer players from the ones who have played the game longer).

So do we have a definite wants list to tweet to Daishi without sounding like greedy pigs for Raph?

It'll help if you can speak japanese.

My prefered buff for Raph would be to make his 4A+B GI effect mid verticals and horizontals. For those moments i know that a mid is coming, just not which one. Pattycakes auto GI works similarly and it is a really powerful and very balanced tool of his. It's strong enough that you have to respect it but punishable enough that if you abuse it you will eat big damage for simply throwing it out.

Followed by delaying the input for prep K BE and making the second kick track.

Please contribute to the wishlist thread. We can discuss the merits here though.
Here is something to think about: After SE A or prepBB BE on block, 4A+B is not fast enough to catch opponent's 2A to aGI. Calculations are something like -7 on block, +7 frames to first aGI frame = 14 frames. 2A are usually 13 frames so you'll just eat it and be at -8.
A move that aGIs all mids is pretty awesome as shown in pyrrha's A+B aGI. Raph doesn't need an aGI against high moves (4B is too damn good).
Don't worry about conflicting aGIs because 8A+B and 4A+B are currently very similar in their aGI types (except 8A+B will repel vertical weapon attacks), so prep4 and your proposed 4A+B isn't that bad an idea.
However, I don't see it changing for the sake of change.

 

[taffertier]

A move that aGIs all mids is pretty awesome as shown in pyrrha's A+B aGI. Raph doesn't need an aGI against high moves (4B is too damn good).
Don't worry about conflicting aGIs because 8A+B and 4A+B are currently very similar in their aGI types (except 8A+B will repel vertical weapon attacks), so prep4 and your proposed 4A+B isn't that bad an idea.
However, I don't see it changing for the sake of change.

I feel it is more a change for actually helping Raph deal with pressure, he doesnt really have a good way to get people off of him other than a regular GI Which costs half a meter is available to everyone already. And yeah i forgot pyrrha has one too, her and Patty Cakes both have excellent auto GIs. But if anyone should have good ones it would Raphael, he's a fencer after all. It would make sense playstyle wise and to compliment his moveset. It would go from a risky situational move to a move with excellent risk / reward. The fact that it doesnt GI all mids is actually baffling. In the auto GI department i would also like the windows for his GIs to last a little longer. B+K is already a bad move for it's follow up and lack of invulnerability to multi-hitting moves, but it also has a very strict window with a MASSIVE window of recovery.

 

[Mr.Hai]

example... you're playing against LX.. you hit her with 6B(B)... she does 3B... your option 2 flowchart immediately fails big time

I've been trying to use Prep K too, but I don't really know how to use it. I'm guessing you would use it after a good Prep entry and if a player was particularly aggressive. Is that correct?

If option 2 had Prep K, and Prep A/B, it is pretty airtight in all matchups (off the worst entry, ~K will be i11). And indeed, ~K has already been mentioned as the counter to aggressiveness on hit.

I feel it is more a change for actually helping Raph deal with pressure, he doesnt really have a good way to get people off of him other than a regular GI which costs half a meter is available to everyone already. But if anyone should have good ones it would Raphael, he's a fencer after all. It would make sense playstyle wise and to compliment his moveset

SC2/3 nostalgia... Anyway, we have 6BB, 3A, and 2A, but I don't disagree that the AE and aGI could be buffed. On an unrelated note, B+K vs Ezio crossbow at range is the coolest thing possible.

So do we have a definite wants list to tweet to Daishi without sounding like greedy pigs for Raph?

Could we discuss what we feel needs to be changed (within the realm of possiblity) as opposed to things that could/should be buffed/changed/added? I guess this would result in a more concise list.

 

[darkfender]

Could we discuss what we feel needs to be changed (within the realm of possiblity) as opposed to things that could/should be buffed/changed/added? I guess this would result in a more concise list.

do you think raph is so good that we just need to ask few changes?

well i think actual raph needs HUGE changes......so giving the fact that for laziness or incompetence (they gave us huge nerfs while writing raph is buffed in the patchlist) they need community inputs...they first need to give competitive players reasons to use raph.

better place to have data are tournaments....no way we'll get any with current raph

 

[Mr.Hai]

Do you think raph is so good that we just need to ask few changes?

Concise does not mean the list has to be short. There are many moves which could be improved, yet certain moves are more "critical" than others; finding a moveset/character design issue and then fixing the relative moves is more what I mean. And of course we all want SC3 AEs, yet it is not probable (it is possible though, ty Fendante) that they would modify the game to that extent.

Prep:
- Step Kill
Prep can be stepped to Raphael's right, K and A will both whiff.
Solutions:
1) Prep~A/6A tracks both sides completely. Also an indirect buff to 6A, which helps further differentiate it from 3A.
2) Prep~A/6A catches left steps completely and catches shallow steps on the right, and K catches the right completely and catches shallow left steps (Prep~K speed increased to at least match Prep~A (at least i15)).

- Beating Non-Vertical TC
Tech crouching non vertical moves can beat prep on block, killing what is supposed to be a stance with many options; certain characters can 100% shut down prep due to this.
Solution:
1) Speed increased to counter TC non-vertical moves (i14 or i15, any faster would allow for NH 4~k(BE) combo).

 

[piggy]

Step 1 - undo all patch changes to Raph.

Step 2 - make Prep A either track step or mid and unsafe and useful like SC4
- if you go with the mid option, make prep K track step

Step 3 - Raph is a decent character now, hooray.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Step 1 - undo all patch changes to Raph.

Step 2 - make Prep A either track step or mid and unsafe and useful like SC4
- if you go with the mid option, make prep K track step

Step 3 - Raph is a decent character now, hooray.

Even the stun on Prep BBB on CH and the damage buff to 33KB BE?