Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

WuHT said:
Gotta be realistic. Changes to frames on hit/block, damage and guard burst meter/edge meter seem to be the most realistic.
Tracking as well. As long as prep gets a tool vs step and TC...
Maybe we should just ask for the Viola treatment and get +10 damage on all verticals.
I don't know anyone who prefers SC5 44B to SC4 44B.
While a faster backstep is nice, anyone would rather have tracking, more damage, and safety (and the awkward pause before both players realize the AT didn't activate). I don't see why Mitsu can have a great 44B (4B) while the vertical & spacing specialist gets his nerfed.
RT0wn said:
I think this would stay truest to Raph's game. I wouldn't mind fishing for Cantarellas if they were more reliable.
Agreed.
 
I suppose tracking is possible, considering how easily they took away SE B's semi-tracking (which was never that reliant to begin with). However,in terms of just tweaking variables without a lot of consideration regarding bugs/hitbox/angles... tracking is actually not as easy to make changes as just changing damage for instance.
 
iTS pretty stupid that namco continue to nerf poor leixia who is already low mid to low tier now no shes lost her only chance of competing with most of the cast damage wise looks like shes lost her last chance of being competitive now i guess we wont see much of her in tournies pretty stupid its got so bad that even kayane is saying she cant compete anymore at tournies as they have completly destroyed her character.

I thought I would just put this here as food for thought. This is a message from the recent patch news on 8WR home page. I wouldn't consider Leixia myself to be a worthless character with her tools but when you see a character you play weakened sometime it is disheartening.

On the plus side I always think of patch notes where they nerf other characters this way.

1.03
Raphael: Buffed Raphaels ability to beat this character slightly. :P
 
well i think that comparing scIV moves to scV (those unchanged in animations) would be a good start.
They nerfed so much, while buffing every other character.
(examples are, AB, 1A, 44AB, 22K, 4K, 6K, 33KB and i could go on a lot).
What i really find outreageous is nerfing TJ moves so bad....
6K is really unusable for example it lost his main purpose.

But if we don t want to suggest this (because there are other bigger problems) i think a singlebuff is not enough.

SeA +0 AND prepK tracking would be the least to make raph playable even if still low/mid tier.

A theoryi discussed time ago and proving to be true is that a character to be competitive needs some tools to heavily discourage random crouching/step, a powerful mid that will punish you if you try to duck without a reason or the same for step.

Characters placing in tournaments seems to have that, best raph moves instead are either high or low, and lacks a fast strong mid.

We can live without the tracking because if someoene has little memory of scIV, an aligned 33KBE serves the purpose against steppers, but its too slow against ducking opponents.


BTW at least i'd ask for seA and prepK.
 
A theoryi discussed time ago and proving to be true is that a character to be competitive needs some tools to heavily discourage random crouching/step, a powerful mid that will punish you if you try to duck without a reason or the same for step.
Raph's most powerful move comes from his stance, which would be absurdly too good if available in neutral. I'm looking back at the old 22B with fond memories. Was 62-66 damage too much on NH for no meter ? Having 66(B) be your biggest move from neutral stance is not threatening enough for opponents to respect raph enough to not risk interrupts.


I don't know if it is Project soul's intention to keep Raph in the 40-50 combo zone with safeish combo starters. If they are going to turn him into a poker and counter-attacker, i'm going to point out I feel his pokes are a bit underwhelming.

Anyways, to contribute, these are some of my personal underused moves. Again : Having all these changes will be unlikely as 1) buffing raph's underused moves doesn't necessarily give him a silver bullet to take over a match to win and 2) the sheer volume of minor buffs will cause too much grief from the other character's users.

1A being 10 damage reinforces Raph being low damage, but I don't see why they could not add some perks to it (if they are adamant on keeping it 10 damage) such as being 0 on hit or even slight tracking (not asking for X's 3A, as functionally Raph's 1A is a faster, non-tracking 1/2 damage version of that move). Look i'm going to be unpopular for saying this but : I'm willing to trade away some of 33B's damage to give it to 1A. 1A is just ridiculously underwhelming. If it is going to be just an annoyance move (stuck at 10 damage), then it should track somewhat to really tick people off.

6B+K: What is 6B+K for ? I cannot figure it out. My secret dream is to have BE versions of the canteralla needles which tracks and lead to a combo possibilities similar to 2_8B+K. Obviously that aint going to happen in a mere patch, so can anyone explain what 6B+K is for ? Does it TC or something that I don't know about ? Its a decent speed, safe, mid, guard guage crusher is what i've looked at it for (basically when you don't know what you want to do).

4A : Decent tracking, decent range, decent speed. Too bad it only does the magic "16" damage threshold that raph has on his horizontals. Unsafe and negative on both CH and NH. I think, because this move evades, it can't be safe on block. Also, it probably wouldn't lead to massive CH bonuses like 22A or 22K (move redundancy). However, there is no good reason why it can't do extra damage. I'm ok with it being -2 on both CH and NH if 4A gets more damage and/or 22A on NH is + on hit.

66K: I've sometimes thrown out 66K just because I feel like I should. 1A doesn't even connect unless they're really close to a wall (but no splat). Its not bad on block, but then again this move basically only has 1 purpose : Guarnateed ringouts on certain guard bursts and guard impacts. Maybe some moves are supposed to only have 1 purpose and this is only of them.

6A: This move tracks to raph's strong side exceptionally well but has 1 catch: Less-than-2A-range. It has a 6AB NH ability for almost 30 damage (not bad!) but unfortunately with the chance that 6A whiffs due to range (not alignment/tracking issues) you're going to get TC'd and punished. 6A on its own should recover faster, (not necessarily more block stun) though I -2 (like SC4) is too strong. Maybe -6 on block and call a day for such a short ranged move.

B+K: Auto-evade frames earlier please. I can't react to some super slow verticals I see coming. It now functions as a predictionary tool. Sure you can own Aeon's BBB string, but then again you can CH him with your CE's invulnerability frames instead. Using B+K to escape setups that track against steppers would be pretty sweet and a nice raph-specific buff.

4A+B: Either this move has earlier aGI frames , or SE A gains a few frames on block (-4 or -5?). Using this to counter AAs and 2A seems to be the most common situation so why does the aGI frames last from i8 to i17? aGI from i6 to i15 would be an awesome sweet spot considering raph's multiple even-on-hit lows. Sugar on top would be the return of 44B's animation instead of the multi-poke into 3B animation.

PrepK: I think my feelings are aligned with the rest of this subforums. Losing 10 damage and 4 frames on hit was a really odd move by project soul. However, it doesnt' really matter what happens to prepK on NH as this move functions as the mid-tracking kick that is supposed to either CH characters using TC moves or side step. Unfortunately, it's too slow against a lot of TC moves, and it also doesn't track as well as the animation suggests. I'm willing to trade the ability to CE after a CH, if it would actually track (and was a little bit more sped up). Maybe just a guaranteed 66A+B ground hit so the net damage is about 35-40. PrepK after prep4 aGI is pretty much garbage if you don't have meter, so its time to fall back on prepAB or SE B (acceptable loss imo).

PrepA+B: I don't know anyone who uses this move outside of a combo. You've got prep4 and SE if you feel the need to be evasive while usually netting you superior results (in the case of SE B you get double the damage at minimum compared to the 40 from prep A+B). If prep K doesn't track, maybe this move should.
 
Raph's most powerful move comes from his stance, which would be absurdly too good if available in neutral. I'm looking back at the old 22B with fond memories. Was 62-66 damage too much on NH for no meter ? Having 66(B) be your biggest move from neutral stance is not threatening enough for opponents to respect raph enough to not risk interrupts.
i may be biased due to the fact that my friend used QSG a lot (old bug in various forms), but i never managed to connect a 22B against a croucher.

I mean:
On opponent wakeup 66B as i noticed early is a great tool.
But when you are close to an opponent with slight advantage you shouldn t be forced in huge risk, low reward.
22B was too slow and 663B was even slower.
Movements takes away lot of frames.
Nightmare, siegfried, phyrra, patroklos etc etc etc have all great tools to discourage you from crouching or punish you if you try. for example to TAP 2.


I don't know if it is Project soul's intention to keep Raph in the 40-50 combo zone with safeish combo starters. If they are going to turn him into a poker and counter-attacker, i'm going to point out I feel his pokes are a bit underwhelming.
i think they nerfed raph poke on purpose....they want raph to be aggressive and take amy's role.
I read few interviews on how we should use prep intensively etc :|



4A : Decent tracking, decent range, decent speed. Too bad it only does the magic "16" damage threshold that raph has on his horizontals. Unsafe and negative on both CH and NH. I think, because this move evades, it can't be safe on block. Also, it probably wouldn't lead to massive CH bonuses like 22A or 22K (move redundancy). However, there is no good reason why it can't do extra damage. I'm ok with it being -2 on both CH and NH if 4A gets more damage and/or 22A on NH is + on hit.
being almost an autoanswer to some mixups is enough for me....i love the move.


4A+B: Either this move has earlier aGI frames , or SE A gains a few frames on block (-4 or -5?). Using this to counter AAs and 2A seems to be the most common situation so why does the aGI frames last from i8 to i17?
4A+B is a post 11K, AB mixup could be better but at least is an improvement from scIV
SeA has to be +0 like old SeAA, give raph a decent move.

PrepA+B: I don't know anyone who uses this move outside of a combo. You've got prep4 and SE if you feel
prep4 aGI in 1.01 granted prepA+B as meterless damage didn t test in 1.03.



Also i got that prepless A+B twice....
G was involved....but i couldn t reproduce...
I did something like 662G,A+B or something like that i wasn t certain on wich move to do :/...
I forgot to save the match, next time i'll see it i'll save the replay >.>
 
I played in training for over 30 minutes to try and get the Prep A+B thing to come out without being in prep (I had done it a couple times in the past, too, but just thought that I must have missed an input or something and got into prep). First time using Raph since I switched after 1.02 but unfortunately, was unable to get prep A+B to come out.
 
darkfender said:
I think they nerfed raph poke on purpose....they want raph to be aggressive and take amy's role.
I wondered about that possibility, but even though we can punish well and have more range as opposed to speed (Is there some kind of perception that raph is fast? Even the stat pentagon says raph is fast...not that I would base much off that chart mind you), we don't have the safety, aGIs, and mixups. The CH's in prep seem to lean to using prep to draw out counters (for CE or 2B yay...), but prep is lacking as a rushdown tool.
I read few interviews on how we should use prep intensively etc
If this is true we need a video of prep being stepped/66K'd by every character. Prep is not much better than in 4 and the devs should know that.
They nerfed so much, while buffing every other character.(examples are, AB, 1A, 44AB, 22K, 4K, 6K, 33KB and i could go on a lot).
66A+B, 44K, 22B, and even 3B ("broken" thrust I guess). And most of the nerfs make moves <20 dmg, while leaving their frames on block the same.
WuHT said:
Raph's most powerful move comes from his stance, which would be absurdly too good if available in neutral. Was 62-66 damage too much on NH for no meter ?
We had 60 dmg off 22B in SC4 (and crazy guage damage), I don't see why they didn't just nerf the 22B damage and leave the stuns, or make it a CH stun. As another possibility, the old stun would make it possible to do 22B, 3~BBB, A+BA/CE, which would have made it even better. On the other hand the 22K stun prevents the CE follow up, so I'm not sure why they didn't switch the stuns between 22K and 22B; 22K could use the buff, and 22B could have used a nerf.
Does it TC or something that I don't know about ?
Taunt? PATHETIC!/DAME DA!
 
Nightmare, siegfried, phyrra, patroklos etc etc etc have all great tools to discourage you from crouching or punish you if you try. for example to TAP 2.
Yes Raph does not have a powerful mid not from stance or QS. 66(B) can't be too strong because it is already + on block.

I read few interviews on how we should use prep intensively etc :|
I don't recall that interview specifically. However, I do remember the developers (in one of the first demo videos when raph was introduced) telling us that SE was going to be a REALLY beastly stance and all moves from it was going to be absurdly strong. Right now, it's just "strong" which I can't complain.

Also i got that prepless A+B twice....
G was involved....but i couldn t reproduce...
I did something like 662G,A+B or something like that i wasn t certain on wich move to do :/...
I forgot to save the match, next time i'll see it i'll save the replay >.>

I played in training for over 30 minutes to try and get the Prep A+B thing to come out without being in prep (I had done it a couple times in the past, too, but just thought that I must have missed an input or something and got into prep). First time using Raph since I switched after 1.02 but unfortunately, was unable to get prep A+B to come out.
I have a video showing an opponent raph doing prepless A+B (with inputs captured). Check it out in the general discussion I believe I linked it there.
Starts at 0:27 ish
On the other hand the 22K stun prevents the CE follow up, so I'm not sure why they didn't switch the stuns between 22K and 22B; 22K could use the buff, and 22B could have used a nerf.

Anyways, on CH, i'm using 22K ,3(B)~prepA(B)~prep pressure more than 22K, 3(B)~prepBBB into nothing. If I have meter my option may change but at least thats what I suggest.
 
I have a video showing an opponent raph doing prepless A+B (with inputs captured). Check it out in the general discussion I believe I linked it there.
Starts at 0:27 ish

Interesting. I am seeing 2A+B A+B 2A+B for the input. Will try some out in practice mode when I get the chance.
 
I agree with Darkfender this time. Raph lacks a strong mid horizontal to kill step. It may not hurt to ask for two buffs minimum. Prep K tracking is a must, but then we can have either SE A 0 on block or 33A with more safety on block and more damage on hit.
I honestly don't think we'll be seeing SE A being 0 on block. It'll likely be something minor negative on block, between -7 and 0 even is probably project soul's break even point. Returning a move to a pre-patch phase means they're admitting a mistake, while changing it to a new value allows to save some face.

Against a omega pyrrha who spams a 66B, QS 22B setup, you'd be surprised at how little step kill options raph has that won't get shut down by a QS into a fast TC. The correct answer is for Raph to take the defensive and just use his own TC or QS, but it just goes to show you that trying to hard-shutdown an opponent's strategy is not raph's strength.
 
Returning a move to a pre-patch phase means they're admitting a mistake, while changing it to a new value allows to save some face.

but they did a mistake.....
I hope really they won t ruin a character just to avoid to admit a mistake really....
Its also universally clear they went really too far nerfing low tiers.

I mean a +0 on block is deserved even for scIV standards considering you risk the transition and scV is made of broken moves .-.

if they want to avoid 0 give us old +1 of seBA :D. jokes aside we should be clear we need that +0 giving reasons to that.

(SE transition unsafeness and lack of potential to abuse the move giving the first 2 that comes to mind).

@fendante its not like scIV
here patroclos, astaroth, phyrra and many others. can take away half health bar gambling a duck.... while the same cannot be done against them.
In scIV you should remember instead that ducking without a reason wasn t effective at all.
 
The sole injustice of SCV Raphael remains that he can't do 4A safe.
It's minus on CH .... it can be safe. It's not like it's going to frame trap into itself.

*goes back to mashing*
 
Against a omega pyrrha who spams a 66B, QS 22B setup, you'd be surprised at how little step kill options raph has that won't get shut down by a QS into a fast TC.
Imagine if we had a functional 2_8B+K...
The sole injustice of SCV Raphael remains that he can't do 4A safe.
:sc5pat1: - You call overall nerfs to a low-mid tier character not injustice? You must be malfested as well!
 
:sc5pat1: - You call overall nerfs to a low-mid tier character not injustice? You must be malfested as well!

keep in mind you consider raph as low-mid tier character... but not everybody does....

and to make it even more sad...... is that with any games... sometimes they purposely make certain characters worse..... knowing they are not as good to create a more 'flavorful' game....

so to some players creating all characters perfectly balanced might be the most ideal game... but for some others and the developer that might not be their goal

-LAU
 
and to make it even more sad...... is that with any games... sometimes they purposely make certain characters worse..... knowing they are not as good to create a more 'flavorful' game....

so to some players creating all characters perfectly balanced might be the most ideal game... but for some others and the developer that might not be their goal

-LAU
Thats what dampierre is there for though right ? I'm actually they have a dedicated joke character. Unless namco wants two, then I have no explanation.
 
A point of discussion: everyone agreeing on one specific buff or fix obviously assumes that we're all on the same page as to what we want. I think this might be harder to find consensus on than it would seem at first glance - similarly to what LAU indicated, not everyone agrees on Raphael's overall tier placement or viability. What some might think would be a buff vital to him even being able to compete at a high level - for example, giving 22B back its pre-1.02 patch properties - could be seen as superfluous to others. Some may feel that those buffs are absolutely useless, and may feel that their own ideas - another example being the return of SC4 44B - are far more helpful to Raphael's overall game.

Much of this ties in to individual player preferences. Ever since the patch, I've tried to cut back on the use of 22B, and can more or less subsist without it or the combos it gives - indeed, I personally find 22B ~ 2A mix-ups to be extremely rewarding, more so than any combos it gave. Furthermore, another may prefer to space far outside of 22B's range, and harass with short range pokes when the opponent closes the distance. There are a few different routes to victory with Raphael, and at this point it's extremely hasty to declare any one path "right" or "wrong" - consensus should be difficult to find.

In essence: for now our time is probably best spent making do with what we have now and trying to find new ways to implement those tools, instead of just glancing through them quickly, declaring them either useless or too powerful, and discussing how best to change him in the next patch. If we just glance over all of the tools we have at our disposal, we might end up missing something extremely powerful that's right in front of our faces.
 
LAU said:
and to make it even more sad...is that with any games...sometimes they purposely make certain characters worse...knowing they are not as good to create a more 'flavorful' game...
Lol come on, its not like raph has been nerferd in every game since 2...
While I am content to play Raph however he is (and if at all, we ain't no ZasYunTal), I still believe that some obvious weaknesses need to be adjusted. I'm all for using prep as long as people don't know about it, but I cannot get over the idea that its use will be reduced once people figure it out (even realizing not everyone will memorize all the frame data and respond perfectly to every situation). Prep (and even raph arguably) has always been gimmicky (in a good way), yet in the current iteration, judging from the small horizontal buffs (and even the proposal to buff verticals, maybe even the stuns (or not)), seems to have been adjusted with some "positive" fixes in mind.
But I guess we all know that anyway.
 
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