Raphael Wishlist 2.0

[Egg]

Raph should laugh more at his opponents imo. Hes a villan and an arogant one. More evil laughing would be cool.

Resonable things:
Ive said this more then on one occation. Can you please help us out can make 2/8 B+K a little easier to use? Not broken by any means, but can you either make it reliable against ducking opponents or maybe improve the hitbox or even the range? Mabe a tc on 6/4 B+K??

improved frames or damage on 33A would be nice.

make 66B+K safer?

Give raph back his old stun off of 4A. A+BA used to be guranteed afterwards.

Change the Stun on prep BBB to a diferent stun so that you can do this combo

2/8B+K 3B prep BBB CE. (Id like to have a non wall combo that does over 100 with raph)

6K seems a little to slow to me. Maybe make it a 1 frame faster.

66A+B should either be able ring out behind or not launch as far so that you can land BT B+K or better consistantly. This might be asking to much but hey Viola got some nice Buffs.

66K should cause a slide stund on a launched opponent imo.

example: 66A+B (turn around) 66K tech trap setup for 236B/66A+B/66B+K.

Thats all I can think of for now.

 

[darkfender]

given the fact they won t even waste time reading....and probably will come with another stupid nonesensical change like the last years...

Well

First of all:
Consider that the new QS mechanics made raph even slower...
33KB now sucks due to that....11K is also slower than it seems and almost blockable on reaction seeing the step (nerf from old 1K).


22B => add TS, add damage or give back old stun.

6K => give back the old TJ the new is slow and sucks

33KB => faster TJ, safe i am really tired of being back thrown while using it....its also unsafe, add slight right tracking (scIV)

3B => add huge pushback

SEA => neutral on block, -2 would be acceptable but considering how bad raph is he needs a +0 nothing less.

prep => lower ending moves unsafeness to something acceptable...using prep is already so risky.

22K => obviously fix the stun chain on CH, the move is already bad

1B => remove nerf...if it was a joke it wasn t funny....its a matter of not trolling customers....nerfing bad moves to bad characters....

1A => add ton damage.

66A => should be safe

prepK => i14 prep without a mid is useless and prepA was all but broken.

BBB, second or at least third B should track

AB, B should track (see scIV), +2 on hit, -14 on block.

66A+B => raph is the only character without a decent pauncher....add combo options.

66B+K, Should track right and shouldn t miss at short range also should damage guard a lot.

SE => make transition faster

remove wall glitches

DO NOT add nerfs.....add overall damage

Adding all this probably wouldn t even be enough to make raph a mid tier.....

What i expect...
A minor almost unnoticeable unnerf/boost just to make us shut up....the patch was just unrespectful of people who played almost ONLY raph and payd for the game...it was not the first time and its clear that namco doesn t want to waste time on testing/understanding raph.....their fault if they lack competitive players that can give inputs......making raph this bad won t be any for sure...

For once risk to make raph good so you can adjust it AFTER.....nerfing him forever won t lead anywhere else than to have nobody playing him.

It seems too much? probably because for years we get used to work with awful tools.

 

[Toxinio]

I played Raph for 3 months and really like the man. He's fun and rewarding to play, but also full of frustration.
I think aside bug fixes and buffs mentioned above he can benefit from following changes:
- replace current prepA with 3A like it was in SCIV
- make prepK track more consistently with no change in speed, just make it reliable
- make SE realign to opponent even when BT. It's a common situation when you evade high or throw with SE with your side or back to opponent and then can do nothing to punish him. Well, maybe it's too much :) but it would be fun to use. Also they'll still be able to beat you with any mid or low.
- make B+K available from Preparation
- change notation of 11_77K with 22_88K (eleminate high kick move)
- remove notation for 44A+B for more convinient use of 4A+B
- 236B from prep would be awesome

 

[Paranormal_Oreo]

Add back teleports from SCIV
Change SCV 44B to SCIV 44B
Make it so if you hit opponent with 66A+G, it does 55 damage but if you mash A, you get health, mash B, you get tiny bits of meter, mash K, you do more damage, and mash G, you heal your guard guage by a 4th.
Make Prep K track both sides 100%
Add laughs to more moves to better conceal 3A+B:5
Fix weird 66A+B launches
Reduce damage on A+B A ender

 

[darkfender]

Add back teleports from SCIV

:D my fave move i already studied the move deeply enough to make it almost useful....(yep i like bad moves >.>).

Change SCV 44B to SCIV 44B

do not agree cuurrent 44B is not bad.

Reduce damage on A+B,A ender

why on earth?
its only good on CH or tech trap....nefing more the move would be another issue...the move has already lot of drawbacks.



A reason to not get back old 22B:
4B stun chain is really important to raph game as it have always been.

Keeping the stun chain and getting old 22B back would result in a broken stun chain leading to:
22B into 3B,BBB into CE that seems a little too much.

Getting removed stun chain would hurt raph a lot....

 

[Kojiro_Kirijo]

When is the next patch supposed to be released ? Is it even sure there'll be another one ?

 

[Zanaken]

Add laughs to more moves to better conceal 3A+B:5

You want Namco to add more voice acting to help you glitch better? I never use this move outside of 22B and 33B, for some odd reason it seems to have a really high success rate for these moves (90%+)

 

[Paranormal_Oreo]

You want Namco to add more voice acting to help you glitch better? I never use this move outside of 22B and 33B, for some odd reason it seems to have a really high success rate for these moves (90%+)

Sorry for the late reply but,yes. It would make it a slightly better move. If they add a move with the exact same laugh and a slightly animation turning it into a safe, tracking, mid, then, voila! Mixup! lol After 22_88B, I would go for a better option such as 2A or A+B, A since 3A+B:5 is techable. Same with 33_99B. If your opponent constantly techs though, you could do CH 22_88K into 3A+B:5 tech trap for all directions. It is blockable if you don't actually ukemi though so mix it up!

 

[WuHT]

Since this has turned into a patch wishlist/discussion thread, lets keep on topic.

Small point, but why is B+K's auto-attack high, high? Since they shouldn't be able to block in the first place, the 2nd hit should be a mid to at least give raph advantage should they ever throw a vertical that recovers faster than B+K's auto attack can hit them (such as 2nd hit of pyrrha's BB)

---
Not sure why i keep going back to my first post, but slapped on a "outta 10" importance meter to me personally since I didn't want to rank things as I was typing it out before.


Here is a crazy thought: If BBB was i15 (which means it no longer competes with 3B) it would be fast enough to combo after the current 22B on NH. I sort of feel that both BBB and 3B are lacking, in part because they are being compared to each other so they can't be too strong.
Now 3B can get buffed via better damage (18 is unacceptable) while BBB gets a critical 1 frame speed bonus.
Raph's punishment options now become i12=6BB, i15 = BB and i16 = 3(B) and i20 = 236B.
Before anyone says "what about 3K?" just know that 3K is the low risk short ranged poke kick.

 

[Freaky]

He needs damage. If not from combos at least from pokes. He has to guess right significantly more than any other character.

He also needs reliable tracking horizontals. Pretty sad that Mitsu's verts track better than Raph's horis.

I would still love to know the reasoning behind Namco's nerfing of SE A as well...

 

[WuHT]

SE A tracks really well though AND stops step during SE AND has backturn on hit with a lot of advantage. I guess they wanted to reduce its strength by removing the 0 on block, which was nice because you could followup with a fast attack. At least -6 is completely safe and lets you move after its blocked.

The problem is that at -6, 4A+B aGI gets beaten by most simple AAs and even 2A because it is too slow (or -6 is too much because aGI activates on 9f so 9+6 = 15 is the fastest move you can aGI). In order to sustain offense, at worse the move should be is -2 to -3 on block. It would be a similar position as if you got them with a NH 2K, except SE A has very little pushback on block.

SE A is still a very powerful move, being i15, mid and 100% tracking. The biggest drawback is it comes only from a stance you enter after entering an original stance so its like a charged move except everyone sees it coming.

He also needs reliable tracking horizontals. Pretty sad that Mitsu's verts track better than Raph's horis.

Sad truths that will hopefully get rectified. Out of reliability, damage, or safety for his horizontals, i'd settle for reliability improvements.

I would still love to know the reasoning behind Namco's nerfing of SE A as well...

They took the time to remove TC from his 1B. I'm shocked too.

 

[Freaky]

Speaking of reliability, A+B needs its animation redone. It was wonky in SC4, and to keep it the same in SC5 just screams laziness. The first hit retracts so far and goes down at a weird angle and.....it's just ugly and unreliable. No reason they wouldn't have noticed this move's flaws through play-testing, they must just not care.

 

[Mandritti]

On Command throw 66A+G

Spoiler

I suspected that command throw was _intended_ to drain meter or otherwise do something unique with it since version 1, but the underlying system somehow prevented it. (i.e., if the meter mechanics are handled in a module that is in a composition relationship with the character modules, overriding that behaviour would require messing with the system).

Anyway, I have two sorts of wishes. My wishes for Raphael himself, which I admit may simply be impossible or improper as patches to this post-release game, and my wishes to patch SCV Raph. (Things that patch Raph are what I want for Raph in a universal sense, although they are conditional on the balance and relation to the rest of the character, and the other characters in the same edition).

They're short lists, and sorted.

Raphael SC V patch wishes

• Absolute foremost important fix: 22B combo. Combo to 33K, combo to 3A, to A+BA, one of them should always work. If the mini A+B step always hit, that's fine, but even that can miss a certain specific crumple.
• Prep K interrupts step in some theoretical case.
• Fix 22K for antistep.
• -> Between 22K, 22A, and I dunno, 33A I guess. Only 22K needs the change.
• ->-> Accomplish this by making the 22K stun combo consistent and huge. It's so avoidable. Make it worth going for a roundhouse to the face.

..

• B+K evade have a distinct use from step, do something step cannot accomplish, that no character's step can accomplish.
• Win quote that refers to the hat (idea by Runemaster).
• Let 236B cause misalign for characters who run or TS around it. Let them deal with camera screw.
• 4(B) consistently link to some Prep input.

Raphael design wishes

• Dat laugh.
• Always have Cranial Scraper - I don't mean Prep Parry; I want the Cranial Scraper
• Put 66A in a string.
• 5A mixup.

---
I really am happy with Shadow Evade, with prep overall, with BBB, 3B, and especially happy that 6B is fast again.
I believe that if 22B represented the threat level to which it was designed, yes, that would buff his antistep game. 22K should improve but still be something you don't actually see at higher level.

 

[WuHT]

• B+K evade have a distinct use from step, do something step cannot accomplish, that no character's step can accomplish.

Yep, functioning as a move that beats strings (where step would fail) or can handle pyrrha's 66B BE would be righteous.

• Let 236B cause misalign for characters who run or TS around it. Let them deal with camera screw.

Lol that is going to piss people off way too much.

• Always have Cranial Scraper - I don't mean Prep Parry; I want the Cranial Scraper

The current prep-parry AT animation seems redundant to me, plus the cranial scraper AT is much more satisfying (no chance of wall splat but I can live with a damage buff to compensate).

 

[Heaton]

The current prep-parry AT animation seems redundant to me, plus the cranial scraper AT is much more satisfying (no chance of wall splat but I can live with a damage buff to compensate).

Not only would there be a damage buff, but we'd also have WHAT A JOKE back.

 

[Gojira]

I've always thought that B+K should just teleport him behind the opponent instead of in front, which would solve the problem of being interrupted by strings even though he succeeded in landing an auto-evade. Though that might cause problems if there's a wall behind them... actually, how does Natsu's BE teleport deal with this problem?

 

[WuHT]

If they advance forward, the short range of the B+K auto-attack may whiff if you teleport behind them. Best example I can think of is 236B types, and I know it would be very frustrating if B+K would fail against pyrrha or omega pyrrah's 236B.

---
I'm looking at some of the other comments (not necessarily in this thread) about Raph's weaknesses, and the threat of a mid with strong reward (in terms of raw damage) seems to pop up. The benefits of having a strong mid goes without saying, so the next point is to re-affirm the near-candidates.

Now 66A+B is not what I call rewarding on hit, plus the move is slow enough so that un-twitch ducking is easily done.

66(B) does almost 60 damage, but imo has a really odd niche. It's + on block (or prep pressure). It's got really long range. It functions as both a long-range whiff punish but also as a long-range poke to initiate offense.

22B imo is better as a +8 frame engine then for raw damage (unless you have meter)

236B is his signature long-range whiff punish, and ~40 damage + knockdown is "decent" in my book rather than "strong".

The above 4 moves are also safe, and this lead me to realize that Raph doesn't really have a lot of powerful, yet unsafe mids. Prep K is stance specific, and isn't powerful at all on NH (18 damage and even frames on hit). 33KB is 40 damage + knockdown, but annoyingly has range-pushback issues and is requires QS.

And then it struck me! As an often neglected move (seems only mr. hai commented on it) 6B+K sits in a very interesting position of being a i19 mid with no built-in evasive qualities. On block it is a totally safe and on hit it is VERY mediocre (20 damage and +1 frame).

6B+K is redundant, and imo is too comparable with Raph's 2B (imo a clearly superior move) with the obvious key differences:
Can't hit grounded
Shorter range
Slower by 3 frames
Can guard burst
Keeps opponent standing rather than force-crouch on hit.
*mandritti can you explain to me why you love it so much ? The only time i've seen it in usage was one of slavi's video where the opponent (after blocking 6B+K) would just dash forward and eat a Raph 4(B) consistently for some odd reason

I propose that 6B+K's safety get increased to something significant to -16 on block. As a tradeoff, it could lead to increased damage. Maybe 6B+K's would be similar to something like patroklus' 3B.

How do you guys feel if 6B+K leads to a ~60 damage combo (at the expense of safety)?
I'm not too well versed on stuns, but I don't know if you want another situation like 1.01 22B where you have the option of stun combo, 2A/3K into +frames mixup, or the ability to CE (which may make the move too versatile). Maybe the same crumple stun off a 66B?

 

[Mandritti]

*mandritti can you explain to me why you love it so much ? The only time i've seen it in usage was one of slavi's video where the opponent (after blocking 6B+K) would just dash forward and eat a Raph 4(B) consistently for some odd reason

Does one simply remove Astaroth's 4B? His (K)?
Yoshi's meditation -> K ?
Mitsu's bA?

One does not just cast aside Staff Style OTG A+B, Gladius Style's B+K, or Cervantes' WS A+B.

6B+K is Raph. He'd have to be rewritten not to have it. (If this Amy deal is actual character growth, it may happen.)

tl; dr Because pathetic. ^_^

----

I have a reply to these ideas about his game, but it became a subject for General Discussion in my estimation, so I am posting there.

 

[Gojira]

B+K doesn't teleport until active frames, and most 236 moves only move forward before the impact frames, not afterward. BBs are another story, but largely I don't think it'd be a problem. If it's really a problem, alternately they could just let you use B+K4 to option which side to teleport to like in SC4.

As for improvements to 6B+K, this isn't changing the move itself but it would be awesome if Raph had a guard break that puts him in Prep at +12, and I think having a BE or charged version of 6B+K might be the right move for that.

 

[darkfender]

.....

Basically the most the time pass the most we want scIV raph back....

Awesome suggestions BTW

Just a couple facts people seems to have forgotten
22B,B:B was about 60 dmg i can t get why suddenly 22B had to be nerfed......just give him some more damage at least
44AB was also 60 DMG

66B+K has serious whiffing problems i'd make it as old 11B and it would really be nice we don t need advantage on block.

We need a powerful i16-18 mid to discourage random crouching btw...66B and such are slow.
I mean did you see pat 3B? just to say one.

Raph actually is pretty balanced for a balanced game....the problem is everyone else doesn not have all those drawbacks on all his moveset (almost every move has at least not one but a couple drawbacks)...unfortunately the same rule isn t applied to anyone else in the game....

But if i could say one fixing his prep on HIT is the first thing they should do.
Prep on hit should be a SAFE bet not with risk reward against raph.

Second thng is giving him a solid mid and buffing his throw range maybe....then some minor buffs also would be wellcome.