Reversal edge mechanic master post by Trace_afj

Trace_afj

[12] Conqueror
REVERSAL EDGE MECHANIC MASTER POST BY TRACE_AFJ

This is a post I wrote on the spanish community group but I'm translating it to english to throw some knowledge out there about everything I know about the new mechanic called "Reversal Edge" with their respective videos and minutes where I got the sources from so you guys can also check that what I'm saying is true, it took a while to compile not gonna lie
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so here it goes, hope you guys find it usefull:

Well, let's sumarize everything that is known about the new mechanic, Reversal Edge (RE):

-RE is a new gameplay mechanic introduced for the first time in SCVI, it's a 1 to 3 frames (?) special kind of guard that automaticly blocks everything but break attacks and unblockeables with the push of a single button; It also has a slash after this "special guard" that leads to a wadger system similar to the one of the Injustice franchise ; once iniciated players have to guess wich button pressed the other and act acordingly to guarantee some damage (kind of like a rock paper scisors mini-game); It doesn't cost any meter at the moment and doesn't have any limit of uses.

- RE is mapped to one button by default, if you want to do it manually it's B+G, we can hold it to "charge" the RE, wich will give more active frames to the parry but it has a limit, so you can't charge it forever. If you release it early before it's fully charged you can guard the RE attack without entering in the clash animation https://youtu.be/PAOM2yPOgf0?t=5m29s and will force a FC on block, however, if you charge it completly even if you guard it, the clash animation will start, but since it's not an unblockable attack you won't take DMG from the intial hit : https://youtu.be/PAOM2yPOgf0?t=4m6s If the RE's strike hits you in an airborne state the clash animation won't start https://youtu.be/meCvnwimIH0?t=5m36s.

-When we push the RE button we will activate an auto-parry, wich has a ridiculously short window of start-up, as seen in this video where Sophie recives a CH from Mitsu from the back but she still has time to turn around and activate her RE to stop the second hit of Mitsu's string, wich leads me to think you can interrupt every non NC string even if you get hit by any strike of the string https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=8m18s.

- RE can also be used as a post-GI counter ( source https://youtu.be/dYAUuJ1Phuw?t=1m47s ), RE's parry loses to BREAK ATTACKS( source https://youtu.be/iA6US0jfqNA?t=1m12s ) and UNBLOCKEABLES (?), and it deflects MID, HIGH and LOW attacks, THROWS, CEs, and also their own REs strikes (source https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=6m43s ).

-When the RE clash animation takes place both characters have the same options, it doesn't matter who iniciated the clash: A B K G, GI step forward, sidestep (2 or 8) or backstep.

If both players choose the same attack option A B or K (?) or if the RE's iniciator does a B and the other does a G the clash animation will reset begining a second round, this second clash is much quicker so the window to enter your input is shorter, and if players get tied again, the one who iniciated the clash will win. Info provided for @Futabot at CES event
If you have a guard tie on second round, RE initiator gets a GI. If you attack tie, initiator attack succeeds. (Tried it on G, G. A, B ties)

Also we know that if you choose G it will lose to B ONLY IN THE SECOND ROUND OF THE CLASH (this is the situation https://youtu.be/PAOM2yPOgf0?t=4m31s)

Here are what options win vs what during the first round of RE:

A > sidestep and K.
A < B , G ( https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=2m29s ) GI, forward step and backstep.
B > A ( https://youtu.be/PAOM2yPOgf0?t=44s ) , G forward step and backstep ( https://youtu.be/PAOM2yPOgf0?t=1m19s ).
B < GI, sidestep ( https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=6m44s ) and K
K > B ( https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=7m36s ) forward step y sidestep
K < A, GI and backstep.
G > A, B, ( https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=46s ) K ( https://youtu.be/2CZsr7z4PJw?t=1m34s) and GI.
G < (?)
G = sidestep, forward step or backstep.
GI > A,B,K
GI < G
GI = everything else
forward step > A ( https://youtu.be/PAOM2yPOgf0?t=1m41s )
forward step < B ( https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=10m12s ) and K ( https://youtu.be/dYAUuJ1Phuw?t=21s )
forward step = G , GI sidestep or backstep.
sidestep > B
sidestep < A , K ( https://youtu.be/2CZsr7z4PJw?t=1m9s )
sidestep = G, GI, forward step or backstep.
backstep > A , K ( https://youtu.be/dYAUuJ1Phuw?t=4m15s )
backstep < B
backstep = G, GI, forward step or sidestep.

-We also know that using RE depletes your guard meter, but if it succesfully deflects any strike the guard meter you spent on the RE will be refunded, look at Sophitia's life bar here sourcehttps://youtu.be/PAOM2yPOgf0?t=4m34s.

-If RE's strike whiffs and we're quick enough to punish the punish will be a guaranteed CH or also a Lethal Hit on every character that has LH whiff punishers (source https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=8m41s ).

- If RE's strike clash with an horizontal it will break the horizontal attack animation and may guarantee something (source https://youtu.be/CuRyOuNy3cE?t=7m12s ).

- Sometimes even if the RE deflects the enemy hit its strike may fail due to its vertical hitbox (source https://youtu.be/2CZsr7z4PJw?t=1m45s ).

-You can interrupt RE's strike if the one doing it miss-times the releasing of the button and eats a hit while doing the RE's slash, you can also provoque this situation by delaying strings for example.
 
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FallenAngelII

[09] Warrior
REVERSAL EDGE MECHANIC MASTER POST BY TRACE_AFJ
-When we push the RE button we will activate an auto-parry, wich has a ridiculously low window of start-up, as seen in this video where Sophie recives a CH from Mitsu from the back but she still has time to turn around and activate her RE to stop the second hit of Mitsu's string, wich leads me to think you can interrupt every non NC string even if you get hit by any strike of the string (source
).
This is worrisome. Hopefully this was just a back-turn glitch that'll get fixed later or Soul Calibur VI will become like the Dead or Alive series where we'll just be RE:ing back and forth all match.
 

HogisGuy

[12] Conqueror
An interesting read. Thank you Trace. Well done.

It's certanly going to be exciting to explore this new mechanic but as i wrote in another thread, i'm a little worried that it's going to end up as a tiring gimmick and maybe slow everything down. Especially if they are just gonna go back and forward like that. May be wrong of course but we'll see.

EDIT: Also, i don't expect tournament level players playing like in the vids. I can see this thing becoming really cool and entertaining to the casuals for a long time.
 

AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
Wonder if you bait and punish RE by doing half a string let's say is safe like Sophitia BB but instead of BB just doing single B while opponent holds onto RE that little bit longer expecting BB but you actually do B - CE wonder if that will come into play
 

Artilust

[10] Knight
Worst case scenario it takes an entire bar, and so, you'll likely only have enough meter to do it twice by the second or final round.

Not a fan of any type of rock paper scissors "wager" type move or comeback mechanic, but it doe apper to be a good 18-20 frames and unable to be spammed. Still, I can see some kind of random okie-doke in high level when its down to the wire.

Better than guard crush into critical finish, for sure.
 

Rikuto

[10] Knight
.... so the long and the short of it is, everyone gets a free spammable attack with armor on it that leads to a derpy and entirely unnecessary RPS minigame.

Oh, that's going to go over well. Yet another bad yolo fighting game mechanic to undermine frame data and matchup knowledge. What an age to be alive.


Worst case scenario it takes an entire bar, and so, you'll likely only have enough meter to do it twice by the second or final round.

Not a fan of any type of rock paper scissors "wager" type move or comeback mechanic, but it doe apper to be a good 18-20 frames and unable to be spammed. Still, I can see some kind of random okie-doke in high level when its down to the wire.

Better than guard crush into critical finish, for sure.


It has armor/auto-parry so why wouldn't you spam it? And it doesn't take meter either -- in fact it generates an alarming substantial amount of it. Sounds like a pretty busted Abare tool to me. I can't think of a single positive benefit of having this in the game.
 
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Trace_afj

[12] Conqueror
Yet another bad yolo fighting game mechanic to undermine frame data and matchup knowledge. What an age to be alive.

It's a shame but I couldn't agree with you more, I'm very skeptical about this new mechanic, there's no way people are not going to find uses to an "auto-parry everything with a single button without spending meter" thing .

With this existing on the game as it is right now mix-ups will allways revolve around this mechanic some way or the other; for example when Mitsu goes into relic stance (RLC) he won't be able to attack inmediatly fearing the opponent will just RE , so bye frame advantage, the safest thing would be something like wait to se if the enemy does the RE and in that case use RLC B that is now a GB attack if I recall correctly to break the RE's parry.

The mix-ups you can apply are going to be very limited with just the mere existence of RE, way too restrictive abusable and invasive mechanic in my opinion, the meta-game it's going to be very turtle-ish I foretell.
 

linkorz

Super Moderator
I think RE will be about as relevant as power crushes or rage arts in Tekken 7. You have to guess right 3 times to get damage. First, that they'll attack, second, that the attack they're doing will be something with a longer recovery, and third on the RPS.

EDIT: I should also mention, you risk taking damage yourself with RE.
 
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Trace_afj

[12] Conqueror
I think RE will be about as relevant as power crushes or rage arts in Tekken 7.

You're wrong, thoose mechanics in Tekken 7 can be used only once per round, RE is there ALL the time, there's a big difference. Also is worth using it even if you don't get anything guaranteed during the clash because the attack that iniciates it does damage so...

Edit: I think it would be interesting if you could only use RE when your life bar is like really low, it will make more sense.
 

linkorz

Super Moderator
You're wrong, thoose mechanics in Tekken 7 can be used only once per round, RE is there ALL the time, there's a big difference. Also is worth using it even if you don't get anything guaranteed during the clash because the attack that iniciates it does damage so...

Edit: I think it would be interesting if you could only use RE when your life bar is like really low, it will make more sense.
Huh? You can spam power crush all you want
 

Rikuto

[10] Knight
I think RE will be about as relevant as power crushes or rage arts in Tekken 7. You have to guess right 3 times to get damage. First, that they'll attack, second, that the attack they're doing will be something with a longer recovery, and third on the RPS.

EDIT: I should also mention, you risk taking damage yourself with RE.


No. You get damage the moment it lands. Everything after is gravy and it can go either way.

One guess for damage. And yes, it's a risk, but it means you don't have to respect the frame data at all. Having to respect frame data is important in any fighting game because its one of the few controllable situations where a player can make a safe gamble. Take that away and all you're left with is yolo, which is what we have here.

It's not even meter resource limited like armored attacks were in V, so we're looking at probably one of the worst mechanics to ever be put into a soul calibur game. Not that I expect this to change. The Japanese rarely give honest feedback and the SCV team showed they were unwilling to listen to the west.


TBH, this whole thing feels like somebody on the staff really wanted to integrate some kind of flashy QTE battle into the game so they could feature-stroke the games resume for the press and they couldn't think of a reasonable way to trigger it so we're stuck with this mess of a mechanic.


Alt-conspiracy theory is that SCV tried to emulate Third Strike's parries, now SCVI is trying to emulate SF4's focus attacks. Maybe in SCVII they'll try to rip off V-trigger. /shrug
 
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linkorz

Super Moderator
If you're counting the damage you get for landing the RE, it's not 1 guess, it's 2 guesses. Like I said, you have to guess that they'll attack AND that they'll do something with long enough recovery that they won't have time to block/step and punish the RE. It's literally just a DP except significantly worse. I can mainly see it being used for string defense/when the hit from landing the RE will kill. Oh, it also loses to break attacks.

What we should really be complaining about is GI. It's SC5 GI except meterless and it parries grabs. wtf
 

Master_Thespian

Imminent Heel Turn
If you're counting the damage you get for landing the RE, it's not 1 guess, it's 2 guesses. Like I said, you have to guess that they'll attack AND that they'll do something with long enough recovery that they won't have time to block/step and punish the RE. It's literally just a DP except significantly worse. I can mainly see it being used for string defense/when the hit from landing the RE will kill. Oh, it also loses to break attacks.
It also loses to CE attacks and I'm unsure about throws. But this is how I see it as well. I do think RE will also occasionally see some use near walls and edges since GI repels throws and GI themselves don't parry to the sides anymore. Even though it's dependent upon which move the opponent throws out, RE can result in a position change in a game where that is currently harder to pull off.
What we should really be complaining about is GI. It's SC5 GI except meterless and it parries grabs. wtf
Yes. I've been sending tweets to Okubo and SCOfficial about this. I'm *hoping* they made it like this just for the press event thinking it would help scrubby journalists out but this makes me extremely concerned.
 

Rikuto

[10] Knight
Wouldn't be the first time I've seen fighting game devs dumb a game down strictly for the initial unveil. Thinking back to DOA 5, during the pre-alpha they were using a 3 point hold system instead of 4 point.


So, who in the western community actually has a communication line going with the devs? I mean it's always somebody.
 

Artilust

[10] Knight
I may have confused the reversal edge with the "rage art"

I don't think it will be that difficult to guard impact if it's being spammed, also looks linear.

They could always make the auto-gi frame start midway through so it can't be spammed as a hail Mary counter with low risk
 

Signia

[13] Hero
-If RE's strike whiffs and we're quick enough to punish the punish will be a guaranteed CH or also a Lethal Hit depending of the circunstances (source
).

The move being used here is 22A, which was unique in SCIV in that it stunned characters that were whiffing if you were off to the side a bit. It did not stun on CH or NH from the front. In SCVI it's possible that this is the move's Lethal Hit condition and not a property of RE on whiff.
Worst case scenario it takes an entire bar, and so, you'll likely only have enough meter to do it twice by the second or final round.

Not a fan of any type of rock paper scissors "wager" type move or comeback mechanic, but it doe apper to be a good 18-20 frames and unable to be spammed.

Longer than that. They're at least i26, easily steppable and punished for big damage.
 
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FallenAngelII

[09] Warrior
Longer than that. They're at least i26, easily steppable and punished for big damage.
The problem is that according to OP, RE can interrupt strings, even if the 1st hit is a CH, as if it partially cancels hitstun. This would limit the number of combos available and turn comboing into a Dead or Alive-style rock-paper-scissors.

Also, RE also renders a lot of reverse mix-ups (and even some legit mix-ups) useless. The problem is not the i26, the problem is that the i25 frames include frames that make characters immune to almost all moves in the game, so if you throw it out, if the opponent is doing anything but an RE-breaking move or stops moving mid-string, the RE will likely hit.
 

Artilust

[10] Knight
The problem is that according to OP, RE can interrupt strings, even if the 1st hit is a CH, as if it partially cancels hitstun. This would limit the number of combos available and turn comboing into a Dead or Alive-style rock-paper-scissors.

Also, RE also renders a lot of reverse mix-ups (and even some legit mix-ups) useless. The problem is not the i26, the problem is that the i25 frames include frames that make characters immune to almost all moves in the game, so if you throw it out, if the opponent is doing anything but an RE-breaking move or stops moving mid-string, the RE will likely hit.
The jury is out on that. I dont know how likely I am to believe that you can mash out a RE during CH or NCC. Sounds unlikely.