RIP DLC

Nine-L said:
It's as simple as saying fighting games are less popular with the mainstream because unlike other genres, fighters require that you actually know things about what's on the disk.

I've never bought into this whole "competitive and casual fighting game players have equal input because both are blahblahblahwe'reallsnowflakes and whatever" line of thought. There's just no such thing as a fighter that truly appeals to a casual demographic for more than the standard honeymoon phase. At a certain point, everyone will just get better and then all the casuals have to bitch about how everybody else's character is too strong and they either stop playing or end up ruining the game for everyone else.

The best way and only real to appeal to casuals with a fighting game is to make the execution pretty much braindead, to make even the simple stuff flashy and cool to look at and lots of ancillary crap like costume DLC and what not. And after a while it won't matter because like I said, the non-casuals will just get better and better and the casuals will just get bored. And it happens pretty fast sometimes.

You've just got to have some really specific tastes to be able to enjoy a fighter outside of the competitive scene which is really what they're intended for. It'll get better when/if the online experience for them begins to more closely resemble an arcade rather than the YouTube comments section.
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Pointing the finger at the casuals again. *rolls eyes*

Not sure about them, but I would like to see presentation in SC for the most part like they have been doing for previous games, until online came along. Something that doesn't make the game go by a season, which I bet the usual casual audience would do to SCV once DOA5 and TTT2 comes along. People will still play SCV though. Myself included, but I know I'll be playing a little more TTT2 and DOA5, because I just love fighting games in general, and I would like to try them out.
 
Sorry dude, it is the casuals. I'm not going to pretend like it isn't just because it's not politically correct to say it since reality is inconvenient for them.

EDIT: Before anyone gets their tampon string in an awkward twist over this, even if you don't go to tournaments, but you're on this website reading frame data, learning character specific strategies and memorizing hit levels in Maxi and Viola blockstrings or whatever, you're not a "casual" as the term is being used here, and it wouldn't be fair to call you one.

"Casual" as it's being used here and as it should be used everywhere is pretty much referring to the grabs are unfair/only scrubs go for ring outs/waaaaaah crowd. Oddly enough it's the opposite of most competitive activities in that the casuals here are the ones that play with a set of rules of what constitutes proper play. Yay internet.
 
jtdam09 said:
I had to read this twice, and realized you said this. My input on this statement.....

I think of it like this. The market/mainstream audience like to choose these few games: Tekken, Street Fighter (Street Fighter 2 was the starting point), and Mortal Kombat. Popular of course, but there is one main gripe that bothers me about Tekken and Street Fighter. They borrow from other games, and I think VF could be put into this equation as well. Think about it.

During the 90s these were popular games, but something was missing about them. That's where other games in the 90s solved those problems, and once those popular games included those features as well, the game who first used it got left into dust, because the popular games had that and then some.

Street Fighter 2, when it was first released, lacked many things: Super Specials, Jumping specials, being able to jump twice, and probably more than that. Super specials were first introduced by one of the SNK games I believe, while I know that jumping specials and being able to jump twice actually came from World Heroes. Street Fighter borrowed that, and the rest was history for them, while World Heroes is left in the dust and SNK had to go bankrupt at some point, until they rose up again by releasing the King of Fighter series.

VF, the first to use 3d polygons, but not the first fighting game to use 3D, actually lacked a sidestep feature. This game was like Street Fighter 4 but without the specials. The first game to actually use this feature was Battle Arena Toshinden, which was a great game back then might I add. Plus it was the first 3d weapon fighting game, while including specials along the way, but I'm sure people didn't like the idea of sidestepping special attacks. Other criticism was Battle Arena Toshinden's slow paced gameplay. Other games pretty much tore this one apart. Tekken and VF took the sidestepping, Soul Edge became its spiritual successor with faster gameplay and neglects the use of special attacks, which each character only had two back then, while the "sidestepping special attacks" in 3D games was solved from Street Fighter EX (I may be wrong about that one). Battle Arena Toshinden's popularity dropped after that.

Mortal Kombat was known for its blood and gore, so that pretty much put it on the map in the Western Audiences. All they had to do was that, and it was guaranteed to stay. Every game, except maybe Killer Instinct and Eternal Champions, were unsuccessful, while I believe games like Weaponlord had potential.

DOA came along and that's where defense was a huge impact. It's advanced countering system, and personally, their amazing interactions to the environment, are what made this series stand out in gameplay. The bouncing physics was just an extra, while the sex appeal was just to put this game into a longer run. Now VF has countering system I believe, but I think they may have had it before. Tekken has it with a few characters, while borrowing the environment idea. DOA still beats them in that department.

I think with most fighting games, it is about solving a problem, rather than using some odd little gimmick (Rage system in Tekkens case). Innovation, I would like to call it while at the same time pushing it to the market as well. Recently, I think Skullgirls is one of those examples that is an innovative game. Blazblue's system is innovative, but visually it looks like Guilty Gear.

A little offtopic from the original discussion, but I do think this should be discussed in another thread though. This is interesting.
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I do agree that this must be discussed. Any other threads already started or do you want to make one?
 
Nine-L said:
It's as simple as saying fighting games are less popular with the mainstream because unlike other genres, fighters require that you actually know things about what's on the disk.

I've never bought into this whole "competitive and casual fighting game players have equal input because both are blahblahblahwe'reallsnowflakes and whatever" line of thought. There's just no such thing as a fighter that truly appeals to a casual demographic for more than the standard honeymoon phase.
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Perhaps you misunderstood what I have said. They do have equal input for an overall package. The fighting game is not different in terms of marketing to anyone, it is just a matter of finding your group. Having a game that can be played on a competitive level, while being able to draw new players in is what a proper fighting game should establish.

On the competitive side, the points of tweaking combat (nerfing, buffing, animations etc.) are what they make points of and are extremely important for core game play. On the other hand, those who are not going to tournaments or going here make input on other parts of the game (perhaps fidelity? Maybe even modes or parts of existing combat as well.) make equally as important points for it's lasting power as a game. And that is the important issue with that, the game as a whole. Core combat only goes so far, you have to look at the bigger picture in order to understand it. One can not deny that both sides who argue for whatever stupid reason have important points. It only gets blocked out when someone tries picking fights because they do not understand or misinterpret something.

This is not main topic so this is all I will say on the matter until I find a suitable place for these points.

EDIT: I made a new thread if anyone is interested in this topic. "Food for Thought: What the Soul Calibur needs."
 
Casuals and hardcores absolutely have an equal say in what goes on in any game for one simple reason: sales. If you ignore either side, it costs the publisher money. Even if someone just picks a game up for a while, they still paid their money for it. On launch day, the tournament player who will glean every bit of data from the game they possibly can is exactly as important as the one who will spend as much time in creation, or the one who will play it for a while and move on. All three of them put their cash in the register, and that, ultimately, is the only thing that Namco cares about.

The real challenge is appealing to all of those demographics. They need deep, balanced gameplay for the first group. They need a lot of options and accessability for the second and they need continual support to keep the third's attention. The problem with SCV is they just didn't have time to accomplish it all. Or the faith from Namco. Gameplay was simplified a bit too much to the point of losing depth. Options, while plentiful in the CAS sense, were hampered by missing fan favorite styles. And its looking like DLC got its plug pulled way too early.
 
EternalArcadia said:
hey! My unhealthy obsession with Adventure Time and fantasy games and stuff doesn't need to be brought to reality.
But I like Sophitia as a character because her flaw that makes her shine so much is that she disobeyed a god proven true knowing the full cost of that for her children, only to STILL have things be in vain.
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So, what do you guys think would convince Namco/Daishi/Project Soul to upload more DLC? I mean I thought the whole "please take my money" idea would work because they have most of the equipment programed into the game anyhow... I hate the fact that Legendary Souls taunts us with Cervantes as Inferno, SCIV Siegfried and SCIV Nightmare and also releasing two character packs and never releasing the rest (just wanted Paladin armor from SCIV or Siegfried's armor from SCV...). Why do this to us?
 
Sirsideburn said:
So, what do you guys think would convince Namco/Daishi/Project Soul to upload more DLC? I mean I thought the whole "please take my money" idea would work because they have most of the equipment programed into the game anyhow... I hate the fact that Legendary Souls taunts us with Cervantes as Inferno, SCIV Siegfried and SCIV Nightmare and also releasing two character packs and never releasing the rest (just wanted Paladin armor from SCIV or Siegfried's armor from SCV...). Why do this to us?
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Because it wasn't making money.
 
ChaosK said:
Wrong, soul calibur was making good money for namco. In fact it was their best seller for the last sales.
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Soul Calibur was selling like hot cakes when Namco was riding it along the gravy train. Then, after they rushed Soul Calibur 5, they went ahead and started riding Tekken until its wheels fell off.
 
Sirsideburn said:
So, what do you guys think would convince Namco/Daishi/Project Soul to upload more DLC? I mean I thought the whole "please take my money" idea would work because they have most of the equipment programed into the game anyhow... I hate the fact that Legendary Souls taunts us with Cervantes as Inferno, SCIV Siegfried and SCIV Nightmare and also releasing two character packs and never releasing the rest (just wanted Paladin armor from SCIV or Siegfried's armor from SCV...). Why do this to us?
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If we could answer that, we'd all be doing it already. I really don't know why they stopped it.. Daishi himself said the next pack would come out and then boom, done. The latest sales figs say that, right now, SCV is their lead seller, so there really is no logic as to why they cut it right now. It can't be Tekken, if it were they'd cut it closer to TTT2's release. The only options that make any sense at all to me are that Namco's execs are idiots and axed it, or they told PS to shift gears to a super SCV, SCVI, or another game entirely.
 
Regardless, they still killed a DLC line before it was complete. Even if they were supposed to switch gears to SCV.II or SCVI, whatever, there's still no reason why they wouldn't finish up the DLC run if it was profitable (enough?).
 
Yeah that's what I don't get, it was making them money why stop the DLC just as it was picking up steam, I'm beginning to realise they REALY aren't going to release that final character pack :-(
 
I wish they woud've continued the DLC.That means no holiday themed outfits for SC5..which SC4 had..

Also I thought of something.
Remember the Nightmare outfit parts for the DLC?
Well since you can't customize his torso (for some stupid reason) none of his torso gear could be used with an actual Nightmare. Algol can be customized yet Nightmare (who once was) can't?!
Anyway, that got me thinking that might be the reason they decided to stop where they did.
I mean they probably planed to stop after the SC5 character pack, but realizing that Nightmare's gear would be un-usable with Nightmare, they thought they'd get the Japanese School Girl outfit that a lot of people wanted instead and be done with the DLC.

Just a thought.
 
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