SC5 'Ivy' Story/Possibilities/Speculation

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[09] Warrior
If they were to make SCV, what route should they take? What aspect from: SC2? SC3? SC4? and ofcos new things!

Just make sure that this thread doesnt turn into a discussion where we toss things such as comparing BD ivy with SC4 ivy which is what the BD thread is for. The posted ideas needs *direction* to how it affects her with respect to your model of how she is capable of fighting, which would be refined by balancing out by nerfs in certain areas just like what developers would think.

So...what would be good if ppl form conceptual ideas of how the *NEW* ivy's mechanics should be designed, while also giving her weaknesses that can be accepted but not downgraded to the point we feel ripped off and uninspired like BD, which is my opinion already.

So...Ill kickstart with some ideas.

How should CS and SS be implemented?

No doubt everyone wants CS and SS a mixup just like in SC2 which isn't a change nor does it seem to be a step forward. SC3 Ivy's 66[K] into mixup is one of the interesting changes I have seen so far as it allows her to frametrap ppl into command throws, plus she had plenty of other SW tools which give good frames for setup back when Command throws were fast! SC4 Ivy is designed for SW iCS and WP SS before CL was discovered to be possible. BD demonstrates what their original intentions were for accessing command throws but actually quite an obsolete method. SC3 in my ranks is still the big step forward, where SE allows both command throws. CL being useless due no throws and weak lows imo is dull if not a failure. SC3 having one stance making her throws deadly is one thing I wish to see in SCV. The next thing I want to see is a new looking command throw not some shakable SE A, 236A. I like SCIV's swap of command throws from SW and WP and would like it if they gave her a secondary command throw for each stance which can be weaker but still more damaging. And possible for different purposes such as crouch throw or AT.

How should her stance system be designed?

This one is an open-ended discussion where possibilities are endless. Bcos ppl dislike CL, we go how about just having WP <> SW? Ppl enjoyed SC2 freedom of access to tools and so did SC4 Ivy's CL before BD's changes. Everyone wants their char to be versatile, but sure limitations force us to play a certain style, that could be their argument to BD's changes. But the thing is, BD Ivy's CL stance isnt rewarding enough just to have instant access from being cutoff to make it fun. For CL was to be a true transtional stance between WP and SW, it needs to be MUCH MORE versatile than WP and SW. Tho bcos she can 8wr and throw like her other stance, CL isnt really a transition. By more versatile I meant having MORE of "2 mix" choices like the BD's CL 66B into 66B+K or 66B,A+K. More to the point where it can make frame traps like SC3 Maxi or access to many stances like SC2 Ivy. Or I wish for SC5 to have more than one transitional stance than just SE. (Proper special stances, not just simply WP 6B+K into CL like BD.)

I disliked the purpose of stance barriers, if the middle stance is crap. Simple as that. Either give her a versatile CL back, or one with more transitional options. Any cool ideas also post up!

How offense and defense game tools:

SCIV did get her treatment of good tools and being accessible. This one is a discussion where it can never be easily agreed on as conceptual and on game will never be the same. This topic is to say what she can HAVE and at the same time FOREGO so that its a viable design to make her fun and not too broken or pathetic as we witnessed from 1.01 or BD. As a starter, say what moves she can go with each stance and what shall be removed as a result of a buff etc. Tho ofcos its too easy to get greedy like I may be already doing so from the following: :P

-Personally Im happy SC4 have retained her SC3 RO cannon and made use for WP WS BB.
-I like how [A] 6B+K is like her SC1 and SC2 main space offense and ppl can play on that as much as they like.
-I enjoyed the new CL236BB's use as a poke and as a followup.
-Versatile things such 9gB from all stance, her get out move, interupt move with a cost but rewarding.
-More fast close quarter moves back from SC3 Ivy like her 44B, 44A or low SW 1A.
-maybe....maybe CL 214B being relatively more balanced in BD. But I did thought SC4 was unsafe enough as it never matches SC3 X.

Ill post more on this one later.
I dont have alot of time i have class soon but some things
i would like to see for 1.04 or SCV would be

Coil Stance having maybe two more solid lows like many people have said.
1A being improved back to how it was SC3 withe controllable B option would help as would fixing the TC and GI windows and if done correctly, would make Coild mauh better a controlling pace this one would help out on defence andthen maybe we can create or dig up another move like sugessted(SW 1A) this would be another offensive move. Also since coild is the medium between WP and SW can we get it setup for both these stance from either Moves or frame data.

Another thing is to see more of the gaurd breaks leading to broken guards
like WP 44A SE66k/SE K I like the idea guard break having a niche move that fits in
that opens up oppents to combos & mind games. I might be hoping for to much with that
so i wouldn't mind if we could just get some plus frames and some setup out of them.

Lastly(for now any way) would be for SE to be done some form of justice as of right now
we have solid way of entering it but it's almost pointless because we cant do anything with tools it provides.
Start by either making it moves like BBB, B 6B 4B..., A 236A(please make this none shakeable), A+B come out a bit fast because as of right now if you enter SE from 214B in coil(Offense-Defense) you can be poked right out of the stance(i know Zas tears this thing to shreds both ways), maybe this could be fixed by up grading the step speed in SE i know fram data could fix the problem but i dont know what numbers would be good without cheaping it. all right g2g
Give her a new command throw that can only be broken with K and has an even longer animation than CS. That would be awsum.
The first thing they should change about her command throws is the animation. It hasn't changed since SC2, it's really boring now. Also, I think SS looks worse than in SC3. It was really flashy in the last game, with differently coloured lighting sparks.

I'd like them to do something with SE. It's a cool stance, but it doesn't do us any good. Once we end up in SE, we are in trouble, not the opponent. IMO it should be accessable from every stance, and maybe from more moves, not only CL 214. The sad thing is that they deciced to tone if down even more in BD, which pretty much means they aren't likely going to make it better =( I hope I'm wrong.
Ivy is find the way she is she's already god tier and her potential is by far the best on the game. Wit that said i'll like too see a couple quick lows in CL& SW and change that CS&SS animation it's boring too watch now.
I'd like new grabs. Dare I say make a 3rd command grab! I'm not sure lows grabs would fit Ivy...though it would be interesting to have an iCS high and low. Ivy = command Rock?

They need to keep SC4 stance switching. It's perfect in all its glitches spare one! B+K at end of SE and CL stances entering SE is useless and depressing to have occur. Maybe add some more moves that force stance switch, can be stopped by holding down a button, but offer a reward (SW 22K vs SW 2A+K) for the added effort.

I would like SE completely redone. Keep K and BBB and lest see some new stuff.

Make 5JF worth my damn time to learn, currently it's for flare, I would never risk it in a competitive match.

More RO cannon set ups! Love doing that!

Allow stance switching while holding guard, not just when you let go of G.

I would also like some better anti-step options. Right now all her goods are pretty linear or steppable/shortranged A's.

Maybe a new decent low? Her lows are kinda weak compared to some characters.

Generally If I had my way I say take SC 4 Ivy, scrap the crappy options like CL 1A and just throw in new stuff there. Her stance switching, step, and other things are great. Fix SE and 5JF and of course fix her glitches like a+bA+B but also the 214K and 6 whiffs and 214B turnarounds. We'll see. Seems ivy is always a top characters till this BD massacre...lets hope I'll be playing Ivy in SC5.
and 214B turnarounds.
They already "fixed" that in BD, by removing the tracking of CL 214. Just the way Namco fixes things, by destroying them completely. You would not believe how crappy this move is now. It's not usable anymore.
i hav a idea for how an ivy low grab would go like :)

it would kinda look like her B+G throw and her SE A 236A and put her into BT and she could also hav a JF follow up

=D =P

This IS just an idea ppl so dont be nasty lol
i think ivy needs a few draw moves like zas has(not 3 second attack throws but real draw moves).
and some mixups from CL 6A because K and A+K are getting old.

Edit: HOW about a stance where the sword is broken up and floating around ivy then you could have a command throw like her critical finish.
Could be interesting to see Ivy use many push and pull moves in combination with her constant stance shifts. Example: CL 3BB+K could turn into 3BA+K. It pushes back and puts you right in whip mode. It would be very nifty if all forced stance shifts worked in this manner. I like 3BB+K, bit it doesn't make sense that you go to SW when you just pushed them back.

I do not want to see Ivy adopt more JFs though. I'm not a fan of them personally (spare iCS), and she doesn't need them.
We all know, in reality, that namco will just change every single one of her stances, and make her play completely different. Or, add four new stances to go along with the current 3. And 1 more useless special stance to sit next to SE.

But really, if they were to keep her the same, and just make a couple changes-

-Revamp SE, make it not useless.

-Give a way to go from SW -> WP without SE or CL in the middle.

-Make her 5JF a 10JF, and amp up the damage, because I'm an elitist.
I'll love to see her breast bigger and a more slutty outfit also how bout giving CL a better unblockable and CS/SS used in every stance.
You want bigger tits? O_O

Damn, you just want a walking tit! Now, where is that walking tit gif when you need it?
I'll love to see her breast bigger and a more slutty outfit also how bout giving CL a better unblockable and CS/SS used in every stance.

Now is that too wishful + a hint of sarcasm? :P

Im pretty much happy with the current SC4 and as Destinizish puts it, it needs a minor additions to make her just a bit better. Plus as we all want... new command throw animations...>_>, I agree SC3 SS looks more cooler with the camera angle and the lights flashing purple, yellow and then red. I want to give the designer of the animation a handshake and mbe treat him some sushi to get him to make the next one. XD

As for CL 4B, dont u guys think she can frame trap some of the chars already? being -2 and she gets i13 1K makes throws or i17 not a threat. If she gets + in this area, she is gonna lose some good tools in terms of balance, which is why Im find it justified why her frames on hit arent that great in SC4. I prefer keeping her short range pokes as it is unnerfed over trading for linear tools like CL BB or WP BB NC or + frames.

JFs? Imo only if they give high rewards. Still hidden JFs are very exciting to be discovered.

They already "fixed" that in BD, by removing the tracking of CL 214.

Thats back to SC3's uselessness. But if it still avoids things, its still better than SC3.

CL 214B -- (i know Zas tears this thing to shreds both ways), maybe this could be fixed by up grading the step speed in SE i know fram data could fix the problem but i dont know what numbers would be good without cheaping it. all right g2g

Doesnt sidestepping to her right during SE evade Zas' BT B+K? On hit she should be able to do so.
Unless you get the counter hit stun/pop im sure he can 6AB us on hit. (I do/had it done to me a couple of times)

Im fine with having most fo what we have in SC4 go to SC5 but the big glare WTF is the point of _____<(insert move here) can/should be fixed. Like i want to see at least two combo's that make use of 6BA+B
as of right now we have one very flawed combo.
Another thing i want to see with this move is to have it murk the SG it hits 9x and ends in GB but yet it Soul Crushes in 50 hits. Am i the only one thats this sounds crazy to. Im not saying make is SC in 8 or anything but 13-23 sounds reasonable as this move doesn't land all that often without getting blocked but if it did better SG damage ppl wouldn't just take in on the SG an keep it movin.Lasty for this move id like a little smigit more track as there has been so many times i swear this move was going to hit only to be stepped.

I agree with you on coil 4B it sets up SW 1A nicely. This is the kind of thing i was talking about when i said coil should setup the other stances. Just like 236BB's can setup different ranges or CL 1B,B+K can setup for WP or SW due to its push back and + frames if coil had more tools that did this it would be alot better at supporting the other stances.

Though i dont like the overall change of BD Ivy somethings in that version of ivy are nice like this stuff
SW BD Changes i liked
+ On CH, WS B launches a little higher, CL 4B is connectable with 236BB for 90dmg. It's still inconsistent (Something in compensation for the combo we lost in 1.03)
+ 2A+K is now -14 at close range.
Coil BD changes
+ BB is Natural Combo (30dmg) + frames on hit
+ AA is +5 on NH
+ WS AA becomes NC at tip and far range.
+ 66BA+K spins opponent on CH, goes to Whip would love this in SC4 (i tried it the day i saw ring post it sadly it doenst work
+ 66B+K looks like SW 3B, it's +4~5 and goes to SW
WP BD Changes
+ Step speed equal to CL and SW
+ AA is +2 on hit
+ BB is Natural Combo (30dmg) + frames on hit
+ 4B,B+K gives a weird spin stun on CH, with guaranteed should have been this way from jump
+ FC 3B~A+B_[A+B] launches everytime. I checked it, and on hit A+B cannot be interrupted! This is the best change in WP so far.(same thing)
+ 2B is +1 on hit. Also, it does 16 dmg (+2), and FC 2B does 20 (+6)I would gladly take just the plus frames but the extra damage is nice

All in all i dont think Ivy needs an overhaul, just some tweaks Like WP 44A+B,B being garunteed after the GI I would take a small damage nerf if it was going to work 100% of the time as it sets up space for the Stance. WP A+B Gi/Repel window should be bigger or earlier or something just so we got it more often. Small stuff that would make a big difference
an unblockable attack that is mid that turns into an AT if the jump or crouch that takes 3 frames to do and does 300 DMG.

but more realistically i think i'm gonna have to agree with every one who says new animations for iCS/SS
I'm fine with either suggestion, I like SC4 Ivy but if they removed CL stance I'd still like her.

If they keep SC4 design, all I ask is that they revamp SE. My suggestions:


-should GB and give free CL 3B on block

-SE A:

-should just be a relatively quick step-catching high (i18, catches left and right step, no longer UB). This will give an excellent option to catch step in SE.

-gives +3 on block and can transition to SW or WP unlike other SE moves. This would in effect let her mix up between SS/CS, but the opponent would have to guess wrong twice (once in SE, and another time after she has adv) in order for the throw to land. SC3 SE seems a little too good by SC4 standards.

-It would also give +16 stun on hit/CH for free WP 3A or SW 1KB (punishment for stepping).

-SE K, 66K, BBB, A+B, and A+K are unchanged

The net result is that she can deal with step, and if the opponent becomes content with just blocking to avoid SE K frametrap, you can either use SE A for +3 frames and a frametrap in either WP/SW, or you can use SE BBBBB JF for a free launcher on block. The catch is that for this stance to be used to its' fullest you will need to know how to execute the 5 hit JF, or they will be able to duck for minimal risk (SE BBB and SE K/66K will still catch duckers, but won't be as punishing as 5 hit JF)

If they just make her a SW/WP Ivy, they should give WP some decent drag moves (a la zasalamel) and SW should have a few pusback moves for easier transitioning.

SW and WP would look alot like SC4 SW/WP, except with some improvements:


-Give her SC2 SW BB, or SCBD CL BB (more range). Needs to be combo on NH (unlike SC4 CL BB) and adv on hit.
-Give her SC4 CL 6B, change the command to 6B+K or something. Slightly increase the pushback, and make it -3 on block.


-WP would inherit SC4 CL 214B
-BB would be replaced with SC4 Ivy's CL 1B, B+K.
-WP would also inherit SC4 CL 4B, which would now be only -1 on block.

-All glitches with both stances should be fixed, including WP 4A+B GI whiff nonsense.

I think you get the point, if she had two stances again they should both be viable and have a lot of synergy. I noticed most SC3 players spent the majority of their time in SW.
Long Post—Sorry :P
Well this is what I feel they should do for Ivy in SC5

Game play
Basically SC4 Ivy, keep all the trick we found with her. Stance change, WP/CL/SW 9gb, WP/CL 8kB. But there a few things I would like to see changed.

Command Throw
Make her command Throws inescapable from the back, just like in SC3. And return the damage, stop decreasing it. It should be the most damaging throw in the game…
Give back her old command throw. Or at least give her 2 new throws using the old commands inputs.

Serpent Embrace
SE -- First give her back her command throws in that stance. The tool she has right now can all be stepped. Maybe put her old command thrown annotation in this stance, but give her two entirely new throws. One returns to sword or other to whip.
SE JF 5hit-- Give the guard crush back. Really please.
SE A, A236. – Actual I would mind if this was still shakeable, but the first A must always create that shake stun, even when A236 is not imputed. The move right now is pretty useless. With that stun always happen we have opportunity create a mind game with SS/mid.

Sword Moves
Bring back SW 66[K] Goes into SE. but still keep SE 66K where it exit and goes to SW, so then it wont be spammed.
Bring back SC3 Ivy SW 44A, and 1A, and SW/WP FC3K
Fix the 214K glitch
SC4 66B return it to the way it was in SC3. SC3 SW 44B was deadly

Coil Moves
1A make this move more effective. Make it launch on normal it, or give us the option to launch manual with B just like SC3. Make the Auto GI more viable, make it longer and/or let it Auto all weapon based vertical, except stab moves
Fixed 214 glitch, but it the only way to fix it is by removing it tracking, then don’t.
Fixed A+B A/A+K so that the last it wont wiff.

Whip Moves
FC 3 A+B, make it a bit easier
WP 22A 4, please make it more damaging, or more ring out range, or make the opponent land closer, so that there is a BT 2K/A+B mix up.

Kick Moves
Also allow every single Kick move accessible in every stance, why would kick be stance depend, it kicks it make no sense. Let Ivy kick be accessible in every stance
Make Ivy SC4 WP/CL 11/99 K become more useful
Also her new SW 3K, return to what it was in SC3 where you have the option charge it

Also moves that have essential the same animation from stance to stance should also have the same inputs. Meaning that WP 44 A is the same animation as CL 4A, but they have different input. This always made her feel unpolished to me. WP 6B+K/CL 6B, WP 11A/ SE A+K, CL 33A/ SW 66A (Although there is a slight difference between her footing)
Broken Destiny
Also keep some of the broken destiny change, particularly the CL 66BA series, it became more useful.

Maybe some New Stuff
Maybe give have a new stance (SC2 Spiral Serenade). I know she already complicated, but thats what makes her so fun to use. So she have WP, CL, SW, SE, SP. SE would focus on close to mid range, and SP would focus from mid to far range. Spiral could have it old stuff as well as Namco could create many new attacks. Maybe a new unblockable that advance in opposition to SE A+B. Maybe a move used in the SC4 intro Ivy vs Hilde, the move look like Ivy’s SEBBB but instead she swings her whip down-up. With Ivy weapon there is so much creativity. I hate when they remove old move, if they were bad/broken, it can be fix by changing the properties, but taking them out of the game completely removes the games ingenuity.

I would love to see these things in SC5, and yea the moves have to be balance. None of the move should be overpowering and there should be that risk/reward for using moves. If they do change some moves for the better I would not mind if they reduced the damage. So really they can keep her frames the same, it just give her more tools and give her an incentive to use the other tools currently not used much in SC4.

Artistic Change
Critical Finish
I would also like if they can give her a new critical finish. Well pretty much everyone should get another critical finish animation. Anyway for a new CF for Ivy, she should first make her sword wrap around the opponent. So that it look like a snake wrapping around it pray. After the sword has wrapped itself around the opponent, the tip of her sword, acting like the snakes head, should dive in delivering the finishing blow, like a snake devouring its pray. Just to make the animation more creative they should have a somewhat transparent rendered snake as the outside body of the sword. So that it really does look like a snake devouring its pray. Well yea that just my little wish for her CF animation.

Also hope they make her look more bad ass next time, like she did in 2 and 3. SC4 Ivy does not look threatening at all, just sedative. I was disappointed in that, usually Namco had a balance of threatening appeal and her seductiveness. Also hope in SC5 that Namco provides all her previous costume variation from the older Soul Calibur games, and has them as standard outfits for Ivy. So people can play Ivy using, lets say her SC2 2P, without creating it from scratch. Also if these costumes were standard, they would probably behave like the default costume in SC4, meaning they wouldn’t turn to little flakes and disappear if they broke.

I hate SC4/SC3 Ivy English voice, although the English voice actresses did better job at the dialog in 4 than she did in 3. But since Namco use most of her old SC3 grunt/fighting noise in SC4 she still make my ears bleed, only difference is her death scream is slightly more tolerable. And yea she still sound like a man. Well it doesn’t matter because I always have it on Japanese. The SC4 Japan Ivy voice is much better to listen, when actual fighting but if you play the single player with this Japanese voice dialog, she once again sounds like a man again.
I miss the old Japanese voice for Ivy, she actual sounded like a woman, but did not have that high pitched, ear piercing, pubescent girly voice that most of the female cast had/still has (Xianghua anyone). In the previous version Ivy Japanese voice sounded tough and feminine, with a somewhat psychotic personality (love SC3 iCS where she laughs and the scream, that was wicked, the SC4 iCS is lame).

Also in SC4 CS/SS only create the death scream on the last hit. Change it back to what it was in the previous SC version, were each hit caused the opponent to moan in agony. And if the KO was in the middle of the animation, the opponent starts spewing out death screams like no tomorrow. I miss that a lot…I know Namco stop the scream from happening so that it be less annoying, but CS/SS are special so there :P

Oh almost forgot, give back her old Fahaha…hahahahahaha laugh, it was simply awesome.
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