SC5 'Ivy' Story/Possibilities/Speculation

[Davo87]

Heh, two opposing models of stance system here...

Nofacekill3r: Remove CL and have WP <> SW

Most would agree either stay as it is with SC4's CL or choose this one. This model is much more simple and has plenty of options for combos and very little barriers. Tho, it would resemble SC2 more with extra stances.

Eli123s: WP - CL - SW - SE - SP - SE

I love to see spiral serenade make its return, as it WP 44BB is much faster back then. Tho I'd remove SP A for something more useful than transitions into SE. Maybe something that draws like CL 4B but a horizontal, just so she gets in range for SE mixups.

Im kinda confused with the SE being in the middle and the right end? Bcos SP and SE has poor movement and needs time to cancel its a bad idea to be in the middle of stance rows. Should it be like this instead?

Fig1:

WP --- SP
|
CL ---
|...........................} all into SE
SW ---
|
SP --- WP


Fig2:


..........SE
...........|
..........SP
...........|
WP.---.CL.---.SW
.|.........|.........|
..........SE.........





Variety of CL models:

A)

New animations, CL moves should resemble a bundled weapon which lash out like whip but be able to retract quickly for charged impact moves. CL moves no longer have any move that resembles from sword. CL could function as an aGI stance if things get ugly, just so she can mixup into other stances. CL is mobile, have good properties on block, evade, draw in moves but weak in damage which is where SW and WP comes in. CL can still mixup with lows but not much advantage.

B)

CL can combo, do both command throws, generally do good damage on natural hit and good evasion. Tho in order for sword and whip to finish their combos, they must revert back into CL. (Similar to BD model)

C)

CL is a mobile stance which have inbuilt moves allowing Ivy to charge in or do good pushback into WP. It has the tools back from SC3 Sword with good lows but no command throws, still need to go into SW or WP to setup command grab.



Edit: Have to admit a lot of detailed ideas u guys are posting here, pretty impressive in keeping track what she had would be great to come back. ^ ^;

 

[Nofacekill3r]

Honestly I'd just like to see them keep CL stance but improve it so it has better synergy with SW and WP as it is the middle stance.

In an ideal world, Ivy is a character that is extremely versatile, and can handle all ranges of combat (of course not as well as the characters who specialize in said type of combat. SW stance should not be equal to Taki for example.)The core problem with having three main stances to deal with three types of combat (close range, mid range, long range) is that there is a stance cooldown. We all know this. What I mean to say though is that Ivy takes longer to adjust from short to mid to long range, so in effect can't pressure or control the match as well as some other characters who have instant access to both short and long range moves. (Amy, Lizardman, Mitsurugi for example). This is unfortunate combined with the fact that she generally doesn't have extremely threatening tools (in terms of damage) at any particular range outside of command throws.

I believe that this should be fixed by allowing Ivy more control over the way her OPPONENT spaces. What I mean is that you give her the ability to force her opponent to fight at a certain range. As it stands SC4 Ivy is more suited to adapting to her opponent than she is forcing her opponent to adapt to her.



Just to reiterate, things that need to be done with CL in the future (if they keep it):
-The stance doesn't need lows. It needs to be a purely distance control and spacing stance (which it already is to some degree, just not fleshed out enough)

A.) Draw attacks - Function like many of Zasalamel's attacks (4AB, BB4, etc). There only needs to be a few of them and they need to give advantage on hit/CH and be extremely safe on block (about -2 or -3 on block). 4B is not sufficient.

B.) Pushback attacks - We already have 1B,B+K. I'd like to see something we don't use as often (like CL 33A) get increased safety and pushback.

C.) Lunging attacks - We already have 66A, which is enough.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's not to say her other stances should be left alone...
WP and SW need some small improvements to support her spacing game while still needing CL to function to their fullest.

WP - Needs slightly better backdash (I'm not talking Algol backdash, but just a small improvement over what she has). I also daresay that CL 214B should be moved to WP stance where it will serve a better purpose there. 214B along with a fixed 4A+B will allow WP to deal with pressure up close a little better.

SW - Slightly increased range on BB and AA.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also think SE could use some improvements, but not (surprisingly) in the form of an unshakeable SE A236A.

-SE BBBBB JF

*should GB and give free CL 3B on block

-SE A:

*should just be a relatively quick step-catching high (i18, catches left and right step, no longer UB). This will give an excellent option to catch step in SE.

*gives +3 on block and can transition to SW or WP unlike other SE moves. This would in effect let her mix up between SS/CS, but the opponent would have to guess wrong twice (once in SE, and another time after she has adv) in order for the throw to land. SC3 SE seems a little too good by SC4 standards.

*It would also give +16 stun on hit/CH for free WP 3A or SW 1KB (punishment for stepping).

-SE K/66K

*Completely uninterruptable if immediately done after 214 (which will now be WP 214) on Hit or Counter Hit, as well as WP 3 on block.

-SE BBB, A+B, and A+K are unchanged
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know this looks like a long list, but what I really want is SC5 Ivy to be a more polished and fluid SC4 Ivy.


Really I'm suggesting a few simple things:


-Improved pushback and safety on select CL moves (33A for example) and the addition of a few more draw attacks with very good frames on hit and block.

-Move CL 214B to WP

-Slightly improve WP backdash

-Slightly increase range on SW BB and SW AA (Sophitia range would be nice).

-Revamp SE without adding guaranteed damage to SE A.

-Fix whiff issues, glitches


And please don't make any stupid changes like you did in SCBD, Namco. :)

 

[IvyFanboy]

Yeah played Ivy in BD...she's utterly unplayable on that thing. I did CS once (and to be honest i tripped on the analog and lucked out)! not iCS...but CS. Couldn't even do the run partition SS.

But beyond that atrocity...

I really like the push pull Ivy best. I would Also love instance stance switching. I see no need to lock the stances. It's not that hard to prevent broken combos from forming in this design. As well it might be cool to give strings with forced stance switch options. EX: Saw we have some new CL move that goes 3AB+K or 3AB or 3AA+K. The first attack would end in sword mode and do a pull, the second would keep them in place, the third would naturally push them out. This gives a natural flow to the transitions. She should always be able to have the opponent in range if she's landing attacks. This also eases thigns if you're in a bad stance for your scenario, you can turn your next move into a trasition as well as a spacing mechanic on block or hit.

 

[dittO]

What I'd like to see in a possible SCV Ivy would be:

- Only 2 weapon states (Sword & Whip)
- And 2 special stances (Serpent's Embrace & A new special stance)

Each weapon state should connect with each special stance. For example: SW + SE and WP + new special stance (or vice versa).

It would be really cool If they indeed made a new special stance, something like the 8 metalic parts (are they 8? :p) of her sword got separated and floating around her, so she could do new flashy moves like WP 6bA+B or so...

I didn't like the CL state idea from the beginning, not as which purpose serves in IV, but mainly because I don't like it visually.

 

[Eli123s]

Dav

Im kinda confused with the SE being in the middle and the right end? Bcos SP and SE has poor movement and needs time to cancel its a bad idea to be in the middle of stance rows. Should it be like this instead?

Me

So she have WP, CL, SW, SE, SP. SE would focus on close to mid range, and SP would focus from mid to far range. Spiral could have it old stuff as well as Namco could create many new attacks.

I guess it look a bit confusing with all the text, I get carry away sometime I guess. What I was trying to suggest is she have 5 stances WP, CL, SW, SP, SE. Where SE was more close range and SP was more for far range.And yes all these stances must easily transition to on another, the stance must flow together.

And ditto yea I feel the same way about CL that the appearance looks awkward. It just doesn’t seem to fit her personality (as far as personality goes in SC games). Her sword was solid and deadly, and her whip was deceptive and stunning. Her weapons really represented her personality, but coiled didn’t reflect that at all.

Gameplay wise CL is an amazing stance, but the visual appearance of CL lack any real connection to Ivy.
So if there is a SC 5, I want CL gone, but her step/movement for SW and WP should be equivalent to her SC4 CL step/movement, and again all her CL move should be distributed, and give her back every single move she had in previous versions.
In the End she has 4 Stances; 2 normal stances and 2 special stances. Normal: WP and SW. Special: SE and SP

Throws
And it seems in BD that Namco will not let Ivy do her Command throws in one stance. (Maybe its in there but I doubt it). Pervious version she was able to do that.
SC2 there was a way to do CS in SW –Flaming CS – SW 37623 214ak. As well as you could SS in Whip. So there was that mix up. Although it seems like a glitch, but I don’t think so, I think they purposefully put it in the game.
SC3 SE able to mix up CS/SS – Although speed was crucial for this other wise you had no mix up.
SC4 CL CS/SS – I think allowing the throw come out of CL is the reason why they change the command throw input. That way you first have to choose which throw you want to do then input the command. In SC3 where you input the commands and at the last split choose CS/SS
I think whichever team designs Ivy game mechanics, always tries to allow the throws to be done in one stance. But the higher up probably didn’t like that about her and just took that as well as her other good tools. Cause you know this game is about balance right.-_-

But if they are heading in this direction then she should have a throw in each stance
SW ==>Summon Suffering— Why back in sword, because it look bad ass. The way it is now looks week. I mean in WP the piece are already separated, so SS looks like the pieces getting stuck in the opponent body, and falling out after Ivy take steps back. The way it was before was awesome, the Sword being one solid piece would violently spilt, then rip them the enemy apart. Then piece by piece the Sword would defiantly form to one solid weapon. It was like no matter way object was in its path, it would destroy it and become one with the other pieces. And they should add more lighting effect to both SS/CS lighting effects are lame. Command can be the same in SC4
WP ==> Calamity Symphony. Command can be the same in SC4
SE==>New Throws 1. Command input 376231-->actually her only inputs
SP==>New Throw 2. Command input 376231. Or inverse: 194213
And the throws need to be flashier. There current incarnations are dull

This remind me I will upload try to upload a few video of a hack BD using Ivy’s move set with Hilde/Astaroth/Algol/some other characters using a special cheat. Basically they will have Ivy’s move set and I will also assign them her weapon too, I can assign weapons of other characters, but it affect her hit box (I will upload some of that too. I tried her CS using Algol (his hands were missing) model and wow the CS animation look much more intense. Although with this cheat I can’t even access CL or WP, any time I enter though stances they change back to sword. Any ways with Astaroth the range of iCS is broken, and with Hilde 5hit looks very interesting.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

Yeah played Ivy in BD...she's utterly unplayable on that thing. I did CS once (and to be honest i tripped on the analog and lucked out)! not iCS...but CS. Couldn't even do the run partition SS.

But beyond that atrocity...

I really like the push pull Ivy best. I would Also love instance stance switching. I see no need to lock the stances. It's not that hard to prevent broken combos from forming in this design. As well it might be cool to give strings with forced stance switch options. EX: Saw we have some new CL move that goes 3AB+K or 3AB or 3AA+K. The first attack would end in sword mode and do a pull, the second would keep them in place, the third would naturally push them out. This gives a natural flow to the transitions. She should always be able to have the opponent in range if she's landing attacks. This also eases thigns if you're in a bad stance for your scenario, you can turn your next move into a trasition as well as a spacing mechanic on block or hit.

What he said.

 

[Davo87]

So far in BD she has one forced transition in each of those stances.
SW: 66A, 66A+K.
CL: 66BA, 66B+K, 66BA+K.
WP: 6AA, 6AB+K.

I agree she needs more to make her transition more smoothly if she does not get stance hold.


Eli: I mistaken the last SE in the post, as its actually part of a new sentence.

- Only 2 weapon states (Sword & Whip)
- And 2 special stances (Serpent's Embrace & A new special stance)

Each weapon state should connect with each special stance. For example: SW + SE and WP + new special stance (or vice versa).

I like this concept, bcos it means she could get a better stance than CL. I like it this bcos it means she gets to do 2 things differently inside the both of WP and SW. So far I dont like the direction they took with SE. Imo its time to get rid of SE and give her new moves. I want them to stop reproducing any of the moves from SC2 stance transitions. I suppose 5JF can stay and SE K series. Tho I just dont want to see stuff like CL WS AA coming out of SE which is basically SC2. I hate to say this, but SE is getting old. Give her 2 new special stances which are less mobile but with good good good properties and fun.

 

[sillycatsteven]

i like CL the best so i hope namco don't remove CL. i also like the idea of a new stance (maybe SP) but i think it should be another SE-type special stance. so my idea is this:


SP<-------------A+K-----------------------WP------(certain moves such as 3)----->SE
..............................................................|
SP<--(certain moves and A+K on recovery)--CL--(certain moves and B+K on recovery)-->SE
..............................................................|
SP<----------(certain moves)---------------SW------------------B+K----------------->SE

WP<-->CL<-->SW still switches the same


i also like IvyFanBoy's idea a lot. esp this:

EX: Saw we have some new CL move that goes 3AB+K or 3AB or 3AA+K. The first attack would end in sword mode and do a pull, the second would keep them in place, the third would naturally push them out. This gives a natural flow to the transitions. She should always be able to have the opponent in range if she's landing attacks. This also eases thigns if you're in a bad stance for your scenario, you can turn your next move into a trasition as well as a spacing mechanic on block or hit.

 

[dittO]

About CL state...

As I have previously mentioned and as many people have also mentioned, I want to emphasize that it's NOT that I don't appreciate how usefull this stance is for Ivy in SCIV (we all know how great it is in many aspects), It's just that:

- I don't like this state visually (a laso sword, lol) (this is the most important for me)
- and I don't like Ivy's moveset being divided at three different states because it feels like each state has limited use of moves (even if it's not entirely correct) (this has become even more apparent in SCBD...meaning worse)

Pretty much like Eli said, CL moves should be respectfully distributed into the other weapon states and of course keep CL step instead of WP or SW step.

I must say, this has become a very interesting thread, and IF by ANY chance (although i doubt it) people from namco-bandai watch forums like this, who knows, maybe if there's a SC5 they may bring us our dream Ivy :)

 

[Eli123s]

Well here are some video using a hack to give Ivy's Moveset to other characters.
An interesting note, when using this hack is if you give Ivy moveset, the other character’s weapon will always try to be in sword stance. So if you want to go into coil you have to buffer A+K near the end of a sword move and quick do the coil move right after, otherwise it goes back to sword. Also you can press A+K(s) during grab animations to go into coil or whip, but you have to do the move right way, before it go into sword, some weird glitch so I could never do SS.

At the same time if I am playing Ivy but she using someone else's weapon, CS will not connect most of the time. The rest of the cast has linear weapons, and the motion of CS is her sword grabbing them. So their linear weapons don’t work and it just whiffs. Ivy can still go in to coil and whip and stay in them, so I can do SS then.

When you give Kratos Ivy moveset and verse any other character except another Kratos, the chains around his arm will be gone, and you have these white bars around his arms. They behave like a whip though. But if it a Kratos vs Kratos and one has Ivy moveset, the that Kratos will have the chains around his arms

Another note: I was struggling at some part with 5hit JF and CS. PSP pad feels so weird :s
I have some more that I will upload soon. One in particular is where I had Setsuka have Ivy moveset. I did CS and it was just like in SC3 where that wire thing was part of the CS animation. Well I upload that video when I get the chance.

BD Algol & Ivy

BD Astaroth & Ivy

BD Dampierre & Ivy

BD Hilde & Ivy

BD Hilde & Ivy 2

BD Kratos & Ivy

Kratos & Ivy 2

BD Kratos & Kratos


Edit:
BD Taki & Ivy

BD Tira & Ivy

BD Yun-seong & Ivy

BD Maxi & Ivy

BD Maxi & Ivy 2

BD Mitsurugi & Ivy

BD Setsuka & Ivy

 

[sillycatsteven]

About CL state...

As I have previously mentioned and as many people have also mentioned, I want to emphasize that it's NOT that I don't appreciate how usefull this stance is for Ivy in SCIV (we all know how great it is in many aspects), It's just that:

- I don't like this state visually (a laso sword, lol) (this is the most important for me)
- and I don't like Ivy's moveset being divided at three different states because it feels like each state has limited use of moves (even if it's not entirely correct) (this has become even more apparent in SCBD...meaning worse)

Pretty much like Eli said, CL moves should be respectfully distributed into the other weapon states and of course keep CL step instead of WP or SW step.

I must say, this has become a very interesting thread, and IF by ANY chance (although i doubt it) people from namco-bandai watch forums like this, who knows, maybe if there's a SC5 they may bring us our dream Ivy :)

crossing my fingers, and trying very hard not to make comments about our dream ivy's dress or boobs (dispite their vague symbolic or metaphoric meaning)....


i guess it's just a personal preference. i personally liked Ivy better because of her three different states. i didn't start maining her until SC4, so my view is obviously biased towards the 3 states. i couldn't use ivy as effectively or efficently in 2 or 3 even though i tried to use her in both. i liked the idea of snake sword but i feel namco didn't do the weapon fighting style well enough in 2 or 3.

slightly out of topic, but i'd always felt that if namco had switched hilde's and ivy's fighting style in SC4, people will be more receptive towards both. ie, give ivy the charge system and only SW and WP stance (and SE). the main way to switch from one to another is to release charge (and go through SE). charge A -> WP while charge B -> SW, you can of course still release both charge regardless of stance. as for hilde, she gets 3 stances dagger only (DG), dagger plus spear (DS) and spear only (SP). she starts in DS and, similar to the current ivy, B+K moves towards DR while A+K move towards SP. she might need a new stance similar to SE though. hilde would put her spear on her back and sheath her dagger on her hip.

 

[Kaz]

I dont hate CL look or love it but i get why we have coil
do you guys remeber SC3 we had moves all over the damn place
i think the whole point is so we dont have move occuping every direction
on the d pad/8wayrun and i think its homage to indiana jones thats why
step is so good.

When i had brought up CL setting up for SW and WP i didn't mean a Draw and Push
thing i think its difficult enough playing Ivy(actually challenging) i just ment like move A
pushes back naturally on block/hit and this may be a good move to transistion into Wp
while move B stuns/KD/draws close on hit/ block and would benifit by going to SW.

Imagine Namco giving Ivy a Draw/Push system that we had to control. they barely made Ivy
right this game we can see what they intend her to be like from BD so lets not give them more to
mess up on.

 

[Spiral_Embrace]

My opinions on Ivy's stances, you guys are free to evaluate whether or not this would make her worse or better...

How do I want her stances???

- = This is the one she had in SC2 where she spins her whip in the air...I want her notation in this manner...accessible in ANY stance...since no move has this notation.

- = The Spiral Serenade notation...

Despite the fact she can switch stances by holding down the desired notation to change...changing from one state to another is unsafe...Therefore...

Namco should add a directional notation where Ivy will spin backwards, diagonally, forwards, upwards etc. Much like SC3...But it can be controlled by the player to avoid any hits while benefiting from a successful stance change...

 

[IvyFanboy]

if you buffer stance change its 100% safe except for embrace. I dont think any ivy simply hits the notation unless its done at the end of or during a move.

I just want to see better horizontal moves. Her anti step game is a bit weak. It's very easy to get to comfortable using her in linear ways.

 

[Rezildur]

I would make mostly stylistic changes.

Reduce the size of her boobs, and cover them up more. Give her a costume that is a little more menacing, but still seductive. Give her a 2P that is something like her SC2 2P.

Change the voice actress to someone more feminine, that can pull off her SC2 laugh.

Give her back Spiral Serenade, even if the mechanics of it are changed.

 

[Sora]

I would make mostly stylistic changes.

Reduce the size of her boobs, and cover them up more. Give her a costume that is a little more menacing, but still seductive. Give her a 2P that is something like her SC2 2P.

Change the voice actress to someone more feminine, that can pull off her SC2 laugh.

Give her back Spiral Serenade, even if the mechanics of it are changed.

TBTH, Ivy would not be Ivy if not for this. I know it doesn't agree on a -lot- of people but simply put, this is Ivy's trademark if nothing else.

Gameplay wise, its really all been said. Haha. One thing I really wish is that WP becomes a better stance, but just how, well, that's hard for me to say. :p

PS. We all know that SC5 Ivy is going to be yet ANOTHER whole new moveset anyway. ><

 

[IvyFanboy]

I would make mostly stylistic changes.

Reduce the size of her boobs, and cover them up more. Give her a costume that is a little more menacing, but still seductive. Give her a 2P that is something like her SC2 2P.

Change the voice actress to someone more feminine, that can pull off her SC2 laugh.

Give her back Spiral Serenade, even if the mechanics of it are changed.

No...I'm thoroughly convinced she has a hidden 3rd command throw where she crushes the opponents head with them...just need to figure it out...I'm suspecting I have to rotate both analogs if you get my drift.

But no...I just wish she looked more like her 2D art. Lets be honest she's much hotter and younger (by younger i mean she looks like hot 30s instead of good 40s that you might consider with a few drinks) looking in her concept art than in her 3D model.

 

[TheLastDragon]

Why when i use ivy, it feels like i put in the right commands for the summoning grab but it wont come out half the time and i go as fast as i can put it in. can it be buffed to fast or somethin? LOL!! I wish they had the old command arrows during pratice mode like they use to :(
Can someone help me out please.

 

[Davo87]

First of all, do u use stick or pad? If its stick, more than half the time its because ppl miss the diagonals when they do it fast. Secondly the buffer window for each move are all slightly different, which means you got to know when to start buffering after a move else the first part of the command wont register.

Now post in this thread next time: http://www.8wayrun.com/f29/ss-cs-ics-info-t7/page12.html

 

[Linkrkc]

Reduce the size of her boobs, and cover them up more. Give her a costume that is a little more menacing, but still seductive. Give her a 2P that is something like her SC2 2P.

TBTH, Ivy would not be Ivy if not for this. I know it doesn't agree on a -lot- of people but simply put, this is Ivy's trademark if nothing else.

Sora, look at SC2 Ivy. They were nicely sized but not ridiculous like they are now.

And the best non-dominatrix Ivy costume is still SC1 2P.