Siegfried Matchup Discussion Thread

I have faced very few "good" Maxi's, but most maxi players have a tendency or pattern when it comes to lows. Block a lot and don't get hit by the lows is pretty much my only advice, terrible I know. I also seem to use 6K more than normal versus Maxi. 2A and 1K are also essential pokes to stop his rushing, imo.
 
DONT. LET. HIM. COME CLOSE!!!

Use a lot of 22_88 A, agA, 3B and B6. In close combat, try to interrupt him with kicks and push him back or use throws.
 
Haven't fought alot of siegs but when I do meet a good one, I have problem closing in. What's the general consensus on sieg-maxi matchup?
 
I think Sieg's a hard match for Maxi. Seriously if you space well he has a lot of trouble getting there. Good or not.
 
I've hit a stone wall versus an Astaroth player friend of mine. He's definitely a solid player but after hundreds of matches it is looking kind of grim. It's coming down to the point where I feel like Siegfried lacks tools to deal with Astaroth.

Tools in Sieg's favour:
WR (B), SCH B is an NC against astaroth:
-effective duck punishment and decent damage options off of it and that's pretty much it.

3B
-Can be used for bullshit tip damage / oki game.

B6
-Maybe catch some back step or bullshit damage in the war of attrition.

agA
-Typical usages for whiff punishment/pressure; can be TCed by astaroth relatively easily and almost inadvertenlty
Sieg's TC game isn't as strong as in SC4, which means astaroth can throw out a lot more command throws

22BB/22BB4SCH
-Solid tool all around to build some guard damage if they don't want to step 22BB4, SCH B. Useful after evading some moves like Asta 66K/ 22B
-On block, he can get FC 3K at close range I believe, but that's not very scary

22A
-Decent move, could be be better with more TC; doesn't space asta very well though due to relatively short range in the match up.

SCH mix-ups post 3B:
-Asta can 66K under SCH A
-Asta can step SCH B, and punish with 22B
-The player I have played against began to wisely to favour stepping, the minimal damage off of one SCH A before they get pushed out is nothing compared to the awesome damage off of 22B BE.
-You can make asta pay for using 66K with SCH B for quite a bit of damage; smartstaroths will not use 66K.

Siegfried guard pressure?
-While handy against other characters, you can't tack on guard damage with SCH Bs/agAs very easily against astaroth.
-Way too risky to try and break with (B) since you're asking to be 22Bed; the good news is if you have astaroth flashing red they might go into panic mode and eat damage trying to evade your moves.

Backstep: Now lethally useless against astaroth.


Tool's in Astaroth's favour:
22B, if you get stepped with this it leads to decent damage and guarantees another 22B force block vs grounded for guard break pressure.
-This move can be stepped on reaction, the timing window is a little tight, but if astaroth guesses right on one of your mix-ups he gets hefty damage.
-22B BE, this move is impossible to step at close range, even if you run past astaroth with a move he will turn around and hit you. I don't understand why.
-I've started to just guard this move against standing, but the pay-off is pretty pitiful at mid-long range and if I mess up I go flying.
-If you sit there trying to wait for it, he also could just run up and throw you from your entire control zone away!
-Edit, this move cannot be just guarded at minimum/short range due to astaroth technically stepping to the side/behind your character. Just guarding becomes regular guarding as your character turns; just guarding is only possible at midrange giving you either 3B combo or 3B tip stun to maybe a combo.

Command Throws:
-Why can he potentially get 107 damage midscreen off of an A throw (clean hit + BE)? Now with buffed throw range.
-Why can he get 97 damage midscreen and way more near a wall off a B throw?

44A:
-This is a powerful tool since it kills both step, hits mid and, TCs, and is quite safe if used at mid-range. The only thing that helps is if they try and do something afterwards like 66K you can hit them out with 3(B), unfortunately this can be used at a range where agA cannot kill step.
-The player I play against no longer uses 44(A), even if I did SBH aGI it, at mid-range SBH B is too far to connect.

66K:
-Actually not a huge deal for siegfried, he has a lot of good moves to deal with this. E.g 3(B), SCH B, 3A
-Also steppable, Astaroth players would be wise not to rely on this against siegfried since he can step punish it pretty well with 22BB/22BB4
-66K BE can go through 3B now, because namco figured astaroth needed to be better. The second hit is really easy to JG and guarantees a 3(B), not a 1B however.
-66(K) if you JG this at tip, you can beat out anything the asta player may have buffered with 3(B); from a match I recall my 1B trading with an asta command grab though.
6B CH, or post guardbreak:
97 or so damage mid-screen, losing against a breakable wall, low wall, basically an entire health bar in a lot of other circumstances and he builds insane meter in the process.

Overall:
The range astaroth can play at prevents him from having to deal with any mildly scary sieg pressure; if you start using beastly +2 advantage with i15 moves for pressure asta can just beat out all options with 66k BE (except for Sieg's 66kBE because it multi-hits). SBH aGI becomes useless, you're forced to JG 44A, and step or JG 22B, you cannot step 22B BE. Throws are obviously a guessing game, if you can predict one really well you get SBH TC, SBH B - if you do it like a human you get NC WR (B), SCH B for a decent 67 damage.

Your real hope is to catch them with agA/3A while they step and fish for a 22B, or 3B if they try to bullrush; it's a pretty lame mix-up between both players.

It may also be in the Sieg player's best interest to avoid walls in general since asta can get massive damage and ridiculous ROs with 63214B+G, 22B BE, Air throw in a pretty wide arc/long-distance.

Winning with Siegfried:
4 WR (B), SCH Bs
3-2ish 3(B), SCH kBE, agAs (less with wall combos)
5 throws
5 3A. 2A+Bs/33Bs
3.5 1Bs
6-4 iagAs (if you step-kill/land them near a wall you can get pretty solid damage)
2.5-2 SBH Bs: good luck breaking asta guard though.
4-3 22BBs (plus you can blow some meter if you want to get some agA wall combos)

Winning with Astaroth
4-5 22Bs
2.5-1 22b BEs (less near a wall)
2.5-1 command throws (less near a wall)
A lot of 44As but that is a spacing tool
Also, asta 1K RO is lame, because he needed more options near a ring edge.
Astaroth CE is also really good now if you don't predict it. And for 1.5 meter total can probably ring you out really easily.

So what am I missing? Is it just a guessing game between asta and Sieg where the Sieg player is forced to win more 50/50s than astaroth? Are there any other tools? One consideration is to throw out more RSH bullshit moves; he can punish RSH K with a crouch throw and gets a standing throw mix-up post RSH B. SSH is basically trash.

Tentative conclusion?
Figure out how to play Nightmare or Hilde against astaroth.
 
Anyone have any advice for fighting Yoshimitsu? He kicks my ass almost every single time. Voldo also. I hear the Voldo match up is in our favor but I'm so ignorant of his options I can't fight him.
 
Yoshi match-up changes drastically when he's in on Siegfried since iMCF after most attacks can frametrap anything except 3k/1k/66k. 214A is a universally good move since it tech steps and ducks (not sure if it can be caught by 3A). Siegfried has good punishment options for blocking a yoshi low however.

As for yoshi stances:
All options out of full screen Meditation mix-ups can be defeated by 3B and lead to CH damage.
You should sit on dragon fly mix-ups blocking low and reacting to DGF B, DGF K is a fast low, DGF A is a + on block high, DGF B is reactable.
Siegfried is one of the few characters with an answer to Super Dragonfly, if you see him fly up, 44(B), SCH kA+B+K is a half-life punish.

If the yoshi knows the match-up they will try and use 214A to defeat all options out of blocked 3B, if you see this happen you can deal with it the next time by SBH aGIing post 3B block to scare him out of that option.

Yoshi still has a mean mix-up out of FC with FC 3K/9K both knocking down, giving yoshi a solid mix-up.

Yoshi however dies to mid-range spacing and cannot effectively punish a lot of mid-range push back moves e.g. 22BB. Other than that, typical sieg rules apply, frame trap with agA / SCH B to your heart's content. agA, 3A works wonders in this match-up.

Also, beware 22K into CE, it's a dirty frametrap. Actually just beware of attacking after yoshi attacks in your face in general.
 
I find Raphael to be an extremely annoying opponent for Sieg. All those annoying little pokes combined = big damage on slow Siegfried.
 
kPc said:
I'll make a vs for raph and Yoshi tomorrow
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We should make a stickied thread with links to all your MU threads. Would be really good for transparency, especially for new players.

And then we should do the same for Heatons move analysis threads.
 
Was reading Pyro's tidbit on Yoshi; very informative.

I just feel manhandled in that matchup do to the mix-ups. I have trouble blocking many of Yoshi's lows on reactions and end up eating door knocker combos. Probably just match-up ignorance.

On the same note I feel helpless against Cervantes. Just seems to do what they pelase to me while I toss out 1k's and everything else seems to get guarded. Maybe I'm just having issues gaining momentum, but I don't even know where to start in this match-up. If I get a chance I'll see if I can get some gameplay so you can see where I'm choking.
 
Hello. I'm finding Asta vs Sieg okay actually. On the other hand, I really hate Natsu, Maxi, Mitsu, Omega.

I've studied Sieg vs Natsu sufficiently so I am very confident in it.

Need opinion on Sieg vs Mitsu/Omega.

:)
 
Here are my opinions:

Asta vs Sieg is not that bad. I'd say 6-4 slightly in astas favor.
Maxi vs Sieg is an even 5-5 imo because you can space him quite effectively, keep attention to his TC/TS though.

Mitsu is retarded yes, but i don't think he gives sieg more trouble than he gives any other char, 6-4 imo. Not that bad.

Natsu looks quite strong in this MU on paper because her AA kills his 3(B) game (i10 AA/A:6 close range to beat the knee, 66B to beat the rest) but tbh, i have yet to see a natsu who really consistently shuts down my 3(B)s. Also just 6-4 imho but could technically be worse.

Now omega is plain horrible imho. I might sound like a salty scrub here but to me it feels like 8-2. Almost impossible for me imho. The one time i beat MattJF from poland, i was so happy that i teabagged the shit out of his omega out of happiness lol.
 
Thanks Chaosk. to follow up your points:

I think Asta Sieg is even though, but that's not so important for me to discuss because i don't see it as a problem... yet.

Maxi vs Sieg cannot be 5-5 IMO. In mid-range the situation is even. 22(B) and 33B and 66B at tip give sieg a lot of problems. A:G:A and B6 cannot deal with those. I can bait and punish those with 3B but I need to burn meter for punishment. Overall the risk reward in mid-range is very even, so i think the neutral game is okay. However, Sieg rushdown on maxi is difficult! 3B on block gives a 22... i can block it to not get hit but maxi does good guard damage and he is left at advantage. Lows and everything can be 6A+Bed.... And maxi rushdown on sieg seems tricky because of sieg's lack of a 2A....

I think Mitsu is 6-4 as well :(

I think Natsu vs Sieg is even. On paper that is... ... Sieg is so hard to play because in theory his risk reward here and there is really good, but requires a severe amount of mental capital and concentration to pull off.... for every option that natsu does after a blocked 3B, sieg gets more damage with an accurate prediction.

Why is Omega so hard for you?
 
The Pyrrha Omega match up is very difficult for Siegfried, but I'm sure there must be a way to put her into place lol.
Just believe...

So what I do is... Not that what I do is what should be done, I need practice too against her... Just my 2c.
Use less 3 (B) ~ SCH~, as most of the time it ends into a disaster for me at least
I guess pokes like B6, 1K, etc are ok...
Use less stance transitions, I mean just go into one stance don't change into anoher as she can NS/DNS B once she gets the message...
Try 22A, aga, iaga... When she is far away I do 66A, no idea why though, sometimes she gets hit...
Just guarding could work only against her...
GRABS... so sweet
WRAA2, then try to confuse her, either WRB or if she seems to be standing up 2B+G ~ 1K
Try to play safe

Well, stances are kinda... a lot risky against her but if you manage to confuse her that would be great.
SRSH K/B ~ damaging combos
SBH her 8B+K (that quake) to GI it and then do your damaging combos ^_~
22k(A) I guess for stepping and going into SCH, then take a risk... or use the SCH K BE glitch to enter another stance and make her wonder what just happened
2B+K? I tried that and sometimes I'd escape her stabs, some others I'd get backstabbed >:(
SSH... well I guess not

So the keys could be patience and to have your eyes opened for any openings or JG chances... and praying lol jk
But I guess it depends on your opponent too. There is a huge difference if the opponent is aggressive or defensive.

I thought I read somewhere that the match up was 9-1? Seems too much for me...


Siegfried vs Astaroth...
Hmm.. I have problems for this one too, but I guess just guarding his slow attacks could save you...

Siegfried vs Maxi...
The more I play against him the more openings I find... Plus you can stop some of his strings with K.
Also JGing him and grabbing him can earn you the victory.

Siegfried vs Natsu...
Jump/ jump attack bombs
Play safe

Siegfried vs Mitsu
His attacks seem to track that much that even if you go behind him he can still hit you...
Lol joke... or is it true?
Patience and mixups I guess

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However I feel that the key to killing most/ if not all of the cast is reading them, adjust to their playstyle and give them a hard times with your mind games...Also we shouldn't let our opponent feel like we are predictable and the stances help a lot in giving them trouble guessing...

Also, as Siegfried players I guess that we should first learn our opponents' moves and best tools, as if they were our main playstyles imo...

Anyone who would like to correct me please do it... We are all here to share and help each other :D

EDIT: Am I off topic? Did you need something like "Siegfried vs Pyrrha Ω is 2-8"? etc...
 
I think the main problem for me is the DNS B, which TC all of his fast horizontals and safely zones her, which makes spacing her extremely hard. Because of its TC you can't even use iaga and 3(B) gets punished by her stab on tip range. In close range however, she has much better options than sieg and overall the damage output of the two chars seem to be quite similar, same for the guard pressure. Of course her being a punishment char, unsafe moves aren't an option too.

So yeah i feel pretty helpless in this MU.
 
ShenYuan said:
I think Asta Sieg is even though, but that's not so important for me to discuss because i don't see it as a problem... yet.
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Xeph and I have talked about this, and it's basically who hits who first. Essentially 5:5

ShenYuan said:
Maxi vs Sieg cannot be 5-5 IMO. In mid-range the situation is even. 22(B) and 33B and 66B at tip give sieg a lot of problems. A:G:A and B6 cannot deal with those. I can bait and punish those with 3B but I need to burn meter for punishment. Overall the risk reward in mid-range is very even, so i think the neutral game is okay. However, Sieg rushdown on maxi is difficult! 3B on block gives a 22... i can block it to not get hit but maxi does good guard damage and he is left at advantage. Lows and everything can be 6A+Bed.... And maxi rushdown on sieg seems tricky because of sieg's lack of a 2A....
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Are you sure? JagA and B6 seems to deal with him just fine. He also has terrible punishment at range, so keeping him at bay is a big part of it. 6:4 for Siegfried at far, 6:4 for Maxi up close - like most of his match-ups against close range fighters.


ShenYuan said:
I think Mitsu is 6-4 as well :(
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Probably, but then again, aren't all of Mitsurugi's match-ups at least 6:4?


ShenYuan said:
I think Natsu vs Sieg is even. On paper that is... ... Sieg is so hard to play because in theory his risk reward here and there is really good, but requires a severe amount of mental capital and concentration to pull off.... for every option that natsu does after a blocked 3B, sieg gets more damage with an accurate prediction.
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I've gone into the lab a few times and have found some really janky shit (in addition to what Belial's found) against her PO stuff that might possibly put it 6:4 Siegfried, though I've had a few disagree. Again, it basically boils down to 6:4 at distance, 4:6 up close.


ShenYuan said:
Why is Omega so hard for you?
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Because she's a stupid fucking whore of a character who needs to be removed from the game forever.

4B + pokes give me a lot of trouble, and Siegfried's poor close range game basically enables her to disrespect you and your frames forever. TAS B is also very dumb, and you get stabbed for everything.

However, I've found that you can actually space her extremely well, even with her DNS stupidity. It's another case of 6:4 at distance, 0:10 up close - or at least that's what all of my matches with Partisan tell me.
 
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