ChaosK
[13] Hero
Jup pretty much. But i dont have the actual frames.
Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion
- Thread starter Slayer_X64
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Bastet
[12] Conqueror
SBH K has TC properties from i1-i3 and after that (i4 and on) Siegfried can be considered as "standing", so he can be grabbed or hit by highs. At least that's what I found.
IRM
[12] Conqueror
Mr.MeatHook
[12] Conqueror
I have long been wondering how to play against Siegfried. From the start of the game he has been in my top 3 worst matchups. (Siggy, Ivy and Hilde. YES I NOTICE THE PATTERN!)
I can never seem to get in on him, and whenever I do, he will knock me away again. With really really fast attacks that'll stun you and knock you away a distance.
And whenever he's putting pressure on me, every single player goes into that crouching stance and I'm pretty much helpless. It's either low attacks that I'm too scared of his launcher to crouch duck fast enough against, and if I do crouch duck, he'll cancel the sweepy low attack and I have two options. Block Low, where he will hit me with WRB, or block high in fear of it, and eat this low kick that he'll follow up by knocking me across the stage, which will force me to get in again, which I have problems doing, as stated.
And that's scratching the surface of my problems. At one point I trained myself to fly and use Atomic Revenger when he swept low, but that's Aeon specific and unreliable at best.
:( Help would be appreciated. I can't for the life of me fight this guy.
I can never seem to get in on him, and whenever I do, he will knock me away again. With really really fast attacks that'll stun you and knock you away a distance.
And whenever he's putting pressure on me, every single player goes into that crouching stance and I'm pretty much helpless. It's either low attacks that I'm too scared of his launcher to crouch duck fast enough against, and if I do crouch duck, he'll cancel the sweepy low attack and I have two options. Block Low, where he will hit me with WRB, or block high in fear of it, and eat this low kick that he'll follow up by knocking me across the stage, which will force me to get in again, which I have problems doing, as stated.
And that's scratching the surface of my problems. At one point I trained myself to fly and use Atomic Revenger when he swept low, but that's Aeon specific and unreliable at best.
:( Help would be appreciated. I can't for the life of me fight this guy.
Jink
[10] Knight
lol, how precise!I'm not afraid anymore...
- Thread starter
- #1,806
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
welcome back jink! how've you been?
in the crouching stance(SBH: basehold) the low is reactable - if you see it come out you can block it before it hits you. there is no reason to duck for the stance at all. and if you see the vertical, you can step it before it hits you. if he cancels the low(the low is called SBH A btw; the notation for the cancel is SBH a2) you are at advantage, and if you can act fast enough you can actually interrupt siegfried depending on what he does. after the cancel, SIEGFRIED should be forced into a situation where he has to block, not the other way around.
I would say go into training mode, pick whoever you main, set player2 to siegfried, and set up 3 recorded commands for siegfried:
RECORD1: B+K ~ SBH A
RECORD2: B+K ~ SBH a2 ~ WR B
RECORD3: B+K ~ SBH B
then set the computer up in the following manner:
MODE - TEST DUMMY
ACTION1 - RANDOM RECORDING
ACTION2 - NORMAL STAND, ALL GUARD
-----------------------------------------------
this will make the dummy enter basehold and attack you, then guard for a few seconds, then enter basehold and again attack you in an endless loop.
or
MODE - TEST DUMMY
ACTION1 - NORMAL STAND, ALL GUARD
ACTION2 - RANDOM RECORDING
-----------------------------------------------
this will make the dummy block until you hit them, at what point after you hit them, they will enter basehold and attack. its a bit slower paced than the first setup.
*both methods may yield undesired recorded inputs if you make the opponent block a low attack.
this training method will boost your reaction times, and help train you against the stance so that it doesnt completely tear you apart. you'll find the stance hardly threatening once this is done.
of course, here is a detailed breakdown of the stance:
SBH: - this stance tech crouches and guard impacts all horizontals from frame 7. the guard impact window is 10 seconds long, but siegfried risks getting counter-hit out of his guard impact if he stays in stance.
A - low, reactable, will kill step, punishable on block
a2 - cancel, reactable, puts siegfried at disadvantage, leaves him in crouching position, and puts him in a defensive -reverse mixup situation. in theory the move can also be punished if you attack immediately because he is open and vulnerable, but doing so makes you run the risk of eating the non-cancelled A.
B - mid, reactable, tech crouch, does decent gauge damage, safe. can be stepped to siegfrieds left(if you step right). if you wanted to take the risk, you could probably just guard it.
K - mid, fast, linear, unsafe. just block and punish this(any BB will do, or if you know some frame data, any i15 or faster move will do). you cant react to it, but you can capitalize on it. this is also why you dont duck against the stance.
kBE - same deal as K except it hurts more if you get hit by it
This stance is weak to moves that are non-horizontal that have tracking, incase you're thinking of hitting him out of stance. also being in the stance guarantees that hitting siegfried will score you a counter hit.
If there is anything else you need, please let us know. im sure we can help you out.
Mr.MeatHook
[12] Conqueror
Wow...
- Thread starter
- #1,808
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
you asked for help, i was more than happy to oblige. plus i just happened to be here when you asked. ^_~
Mr.MeatHook
[12] Conqueror
No it's just.... wow....
ALSO
What would you say is Siggy's best/most useful stance? And don't say they all have their uses, because in the back of your mind, you like ONE more than the others. ;p
ChaosK
[13] Hero
It seems to me that you may have a problem against spacing chars. You should check out Drake Aldan's spacing article.
In general rather to try to get in their face all the time (which you should be really careful about) you can also try to step OUT of their range and make them whiff and then whiffpunish him or use the frame advantage to safely approach. Since a lot of siegfrieds stuff puts him in a stance this can be a very good tactic against his spacing. Don't backstep against him at close range though because you risk getting launched by CH 3B - only backstep at his tip range.
Scroll down here to see a video, of how this could look like in practice. Hope its helpful for you.
Mr.MeatHook
[12] Conqueror
*through clenched teeth* I said I saw the pattern...
- Thread starter
- #1,812
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
siegs most useful stance, at least in this game id say is probably SBH, though SCH is pretty decent as well. but of course they really do have their uses. SSH is our spacing/whiff punishment stance, SBH is our defensive aGI/read stance, SCH is our evasion/block pressure stance, and SRSH is our rushdown/mixup pressure stance. however i personally do not like SSH or SRSH because in this game they have some fairly large holes in them. thats not to say i wont use them from time to time however...
Mr.MeatHook
[12] Conqueror
I like the one where he slashes 3 times...
Slade
[14] Master
It can't be stepped to his right (?) if I recall. I've definitely been hit out of sidestep by this move, although I'm not entirely certain which direction I was stepping. It didn't appear to be because of tracking (he still charges straight forward off axis) but because of a wonky hitbox.
Unless the wiki is wrong, it's only -14 so i15 BBs (Algol, Mitsu, etc) can't punish it. Only Yoshi/Pat/Pyrrha/Leixia/Viola/Dampierre/Gloomy Tira can BB it, and Pyrrha/Gloomy Tira/Leixia have better alternatives for punishing -14 (stab, 3AA, 6KK). I wish it was -15 though, because then Aeon could get 6B BE. As it is we're stuck with AA punish (or CE, but I'd rather do AA into a mixup).
- Thread starter
- #1,815
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
ah my bad. wiki is right. im wrong. its -14. everyone makes mistakes.
although i think its fair to use BB's as a point of reference, as most standard BB's are i14. im not going to go on a character specific basis, but if your character has a better alternative punisher to i14 moves that is better than BB, then obviously you should use it.
and if it were -15, sieg would get more than just a single K for a punish.
anyways as for the K tracking, the move does have a bit of a wonky hitbox, but it will not catch step unless you step late. the hitbox is a little wide on his left side. but this move isnt something that will hit anyone out of step, unless they were slow to innitiate step in the first place(remember normal step frames dont activate until frame 4.). regardless the move can be stepped to either side. therefore the weak side for Basehold is conclusively his left side.
infact each stance has a weak side, incase anyone was wondering. here's the stance, its purpose, effective range, and its "weaksides", as well as additional breakdown information:
SBH(defensiveGI/TC vs horizontals, capable of minor wakeup pressure|close-long range|weakside = left) -SBH B tracks strongly to the right. note that SBH A comes from the left side but it is completely reactable. it will only kill step if step is either innitiated late, or at disadvantage. the stance does have the ability to catch backstep. SBH K does not track sidestep, but can catch backstep.
SRSH(offensive Mixup/Pressure|close range|weakside = right) -SRSH B tracks moderately to the left. note that SRSH K will kill sidestep. SRSH A is too slow to practically kill step unless the opponent is over aggressive and fails to excersize caution or the use of meaningful step, and it can also be ducked on reaction. the stance is meant to be used at close range, and thus will catch backstep within its effective range.
SSH(defensive zoning/baiting/whiff punishment|close-mid range|weakside = backwards/right) -SSH B tracks very slightly to siegs left, but will only catch step if it is far too early, or too late. note that SSH A comes from the right. the move is reactable to block from standing, but it is fast enought that it has the possibility to kill step. backstep will generally also kill this stance so long as you are as far out as about mid range, and is overall the safest exit to the stance.
SCH(offensive Reverse-mixup/gauge pressure stance, secondary purpose as an evasive whiff punishment stance|close-mid range|weakside = backwards/right) suprisingly this move's weakside is the opposite of what it was in the last game. -SCH A will kill all sidestep, regardless of step cancelling, but is vulnerable to step TC's. it should also be noted that the second hit of SCH A will not connect normally unless siegfried is near a wall, leaving him at disadvantage, unless he should choose to enter stance using SCH {A} ~ SSH, in which case he is placed in a secondary reverse mixup situation where he is at +5(in such a case, SSH K will catch any move that doesnt TC on frame 5, SSH A will catch all step on frame 17. this reverse mixup situation is completely vulnerable to backstep, however.) SCH B does not kill step, but it does retrack step if re-aligned, so it will kill some step TC's, at risk of being delayed and leaving an opening for a stronger direct punishment. SCH B also has the posibility to kill backstep if the opponent innitiates the backstep at close range(it will fail to do so at mid or long range) Overall the safest exit to this stance is to backstep, with sidestep being a more offensive option with generally better damage opportunities.
If there are any additional questions about Siegfrieds stances, please feel free to ask.
- Moderator
- #1,816
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
That thing randomly re-aligns for absolutely no reason, and then people start yelling at me because it tracked once out of twenty fives times.
- Thread starter
- #1,817
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
lol like i said before it does have a bit of a wonky hitbox, but it will only track if they step too late, or if they attack with a move that has an awkward hitbox which just happens to unluckily move into the path of the move.. so really the onus is on them, they should have stepped faster, the move truly is linear.
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- #1,818
Party Wolf
Administrator
Why does siegfried eye twitch when he beats nightmare? I'd like to know an answer for that question.
AlphaKEG
[10] Knight
So when you guys JG......what do you do? Lol.
Did you spell his name wrong on purpose? -.-
Solo
[14] Master
Don't ask us, ask this genius...
It's all about those reverse mix ups when you have frame advantage...
Ok seriously. I usually don't bother with it unless it's a slow move I know I'll get some half decent damage from.
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