Siegfried SCV Non-Gameplay Related Discussion
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Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
Crispin Freeman, siegfried's Soul Calibur 3 English VA aka this guy: http://www.youtube.com/user/crispinfreeman#p/p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voFDnJ0Qi50
EDIT: also lol @ wikipedia's comment on the siegfried section of characters in the soul series
Wikipedia said:Siegfried
This section may be too long and overly detailed.
Please consider summarizing the material while citing sources as needed.
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
So you wrote the regular Wikipedia article as well as the 8Wayrun article. Good to know.
Cupui
[09] Warrior
I was hoping he'll get a new stance
So he'll able to confuse his opponent more with his roulette lol
So he'll able to confuse his opponent more with his roulette lol
Cupui
[09] Warrior
I hope 2KKKK will be more useful
I love that move but....
I didn't find any better usage than stomping my opponent after match ( just for harassment lol )
anyway it's been a while since I posted here...a year ago lol
good to see u all :)
I love that move but....
I didn't find any better usage than stomping my opponent after match ( just for harassment lol )
anyway it's been a while since I posted here...a year ago lol
good to see u all :)
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
While the fundamental design of Siegs gameplay - a mindgame-heavy character with high risk/high reward - is there, it lacks proper execution. That is to say it's not balanced right. In many scenarios the supposed choices aren't choices at all. And the opponent - assuming he has the necessary knowledge - can avoid a mix-up - both on the offensive and defensive side - entirely by simply always choosing the same option. Jink brought up many good points in regard to his stance-system. Apart from a few choice transitions Sieg is mostly doomed to be a sitting duck on block and follow-up options - if not guaranteed - often feel very limited. This is a problem that many characters in SC have suffered from since the very beginning. Stances mostly feel clunky and have very few viable options, even further limited depending on the transition. If Daishi & Co. really want to make the game "flow" better like they claim, stances are a good place to start. And Sieg, being a heavily stance-based character, is a prime candidate for some serious change. I'd look in the direction of VF for guidance, or if they want to stay true to their roots, to Mitsurugi, whose stances I consider very well designed by SC standards. Looking at Sieg specifically, though, there are also a few other options...
The return of 1F-Stanceshifts
Some of you might remember these back from the SC1 days and - to a lesser degree - from SC2. Simply put, Sieg could switch from one stance to another within an incredibly short timeframe. This allows for sheer endless possibilities in mix-up. Imagine having access to SCH's pokes, SRSH's mix-up, SSH A+B and SBH GI all at the same time. This makes you think why they removed it in SC3. One thing is probably the "mobile" stance transitions he gained in that game. A backstep and sidestep simply cant be instant for graphic reasons alone. But Id also say simply implementing true 1F-shifts again for all transitions would actually be overpowered and very abuseable. And while Id love for Sieg to become a better character, I do not wish it to happen at the cost of him becoming easy-mode. Part of the attractiveness of his design is that it requires a balls-out-approach in gameplay. You cannot at all play Siegfried "safe" and expect to be successful. You have to commit to your choices and put your head on the chopping block all the time, the risks are - and should always be - great. Its the rewards that need work. This is why I think 1Fshifts could be reintroduced in part. Jink provides good suggestions with instant access to a completely reliable evade vs verticals as well as SBH's Auto-GI. Keep the moving component to all his stance transitions to prevent instant access to all his stance moves at the same time, but make sure he still has the options to keep his opponent on his toes at all times. Still, at least all neutral -> stance transitions should provide faster access to stance moves.
Stance mobility
Mobility promotes fluent gameplay. The less viable options you have when pushed to defend besides blocking, the more static, predictable and boring the game becomes. This doesn't mean that Sieg should fly and jump around like Talim (although his SC3/4 stancegame arguably provides better evasion than hers), but obviously gluing him to the spot for him to take it up the ass is not the right way to go about things either. We can - again - look back at past iterations of the series and see that its already been done better and have to - AGAIN - wonder why the fuck this aspect of gameplay was cut out later on. Concerning Sieg specifically there's NBSR (the old Chief Hold from SCH 2), which - apart from looking menacing and manly as fuck - provided great mobility and an actual way of approaching your opponent while already in stance. GYS (old SSH/SRSH transition from neutral in SC2) also comes to mind, but 2_8B+K already serves that purpose. Then theres 6B+K. SRSH is an all-in stance. Entirely without any pokes or defensive options by itself, which is fine. What irks me is that the transition to 6B+K is so slow and clunky, when its purpose is to rush and pressure the opponent. It doesnt even need a TC or an Auto-GI or anything of that sort, but it needs to be quick and cover some distance. Sieg relies heavily on momentum that is created by the opponents hesitation. This is good design in principle when executed correctly, but it is heavily hindered by long-winded animations and huge delays between actions - or moves that plain and simply dont do what theyre supposed to. Which brings me to my next point...
Stance design and tools
Every move needs a purpose, else its just a waste of budget on animations and programming time. Every stance should serve a specific purpose and the tools available from that stance should be designed with that goal in mind. SCH is a good example of this. While the initial evade needs work, the moves from stance all work fine. SCH K as poke/interrupt, SCH A to control steppers, SCH B as whiffpunisher after evade and SCH A+B as combo-follow-up. If it is mobile again, it could use some additions to make it viable as a spacing/approach tool, though. Giving it access to the old SC2 22_88AAB and B6 would be great ways to achieve that.
Then we have SSH. 99% of the times youll go into that stance it will be from 22B and at least 3/4 of the time after the transition youll input SSH A+B to get the fuck away. Even the motion of 4B+K into SSH from neutral is a backstep, so the stance is apparently meant to get some distance to the opponent and set up Siegs spacing game. SSH AA does fine as combo follow-up, SSH K is great as ch fisher, but SSH B... Not only is the move terrible by itself, it also doesnt make any sense design-wise. The stance is not meant for 50/50, so I see little reason to make it a mid combo-starter. A good idea would be to turn it into a semi-slow (i20ish) linear mid that is around +0 on block, pushes the opponent very far on block and hit and only allows for guaranteed follow-ups on air-hit. This is entirely conform with the stance design and also fills a necessary niche to discourage jumpers and set up spacing more effectively (as SSH A+B's purpose is mainly as an evade, its recovery is too long for Sieg to actually space that well afterwards).
SRSH... apart from needing to be turned into an actual dash, has three main problems. First, people can just lie on the ground and not care about the mix-up at all. And second, the core mix-up of the stance can entirely be avoided by stepping to Siegs right. Third, half of the stances moves are plain useless or dont make sense. While the stance doesnt necessarily need to be Siegs main wakeup pressure tool it would make sense design-wise for a dash to set up oki. And all it would take is for one option to be decently fast and hitting grounded/rollers. My suggestion would be to turn SRSH Bs animation into Strifes 6B. Remove the tracking against steppers, but make the hitbox big enough to catch rolls in all directions. Keep SRSH K as it is, a sweep thats aimed at the ankle/calf shouldnt really hit grounded. SRSH A is the most horrible move Ive witnessed in my history with fighting games. Make it mid, fast, slightly unsafe and you have a winner to cover evades and step attempts. SRSH A+B is too slow to be effective in the mix-up and making it faster might make SRSH B obsolete. My suggestion would be giving it guard crush properties to serve the offensive needs of the stance and still provide a viable alternative to the core mix-up already provided. Both a guaranteed low-dmg follow-up and just really high +frames on guard would work fine.
SBH forsakes all mobility to make Sieg a living fortress. The Auto-GI gap needs to go and horizontal kicks either included as auto-GIable or covered by some other defensive option, else its too much of a no-brainer for the opponent to counter the stance, which would make no sense since its entirely defensive in nature. That also makes it problematic to design moves that fit into its design, tho. SBHs core is its auto-GI and it doesnt really need more than one guaranteed follow-up if its auto-GI is made instant (which would make perfect GIs an even rarer occurence than they already are). SBH B is fine as tech-trap and combo follow-up and SBH A+B only really makes sense if its turned into an actually viable TJ and SBH's auto-GI made vulnerable to lows.
Overall, Siegs neutral game also needs some work. It should mainly be made to complement his stance game, solid enough to cover its weaknesses, but not attractive and effective enough for players to actually want to omit Siegs stance game entirely in favor of "safety", cause thats just not manly. Some decent pokes, punishers and spacing tools should do the trick.
The return of 1F-Stanceshifts
Some of you might remember these back from the SC1 days and - to a lesser degree - from SC2. Simply put, Sieg could switch from one stance to another within an incredibly short timeframe. This allows for sheer endless possibilities in mix-up. Imagine having access to SCH's pokes, SRSH's mix-up, SSH A+B and SBH GI all at the same time. This makes you think why they removed it in SC3. One thing is probably the "mobile" stance transitions he gained in that game. A backstep and sidestep simply cant be instant for graphic reasons alone. But Id also say simply implementing true 1F-shifts again for all transitions would actually be overpowered and very abuseable. And while Id love for Sieg to become a better character, I do not wish it to happen at the cost of him becoming easy-mode. Part of the attractiveness of his design is that it requires a balls-out-approach in gameplay. You cannot at all play Siegfried "safe" and expect to be successful. You have to commit to your choices and put your head on the chopping block all the time, the risks are - and should always be - great. Its the rewards that need work. This is why I think 1Fshifts could be reintroduced in part. Jink provides good suggestions with instant access to a completely reliable evade vs verticals as well as SBH's Auto-GI. Keep the moving component to all his stance transitions to prevent instant access to all his stance moves at the same time, but make sure he still has the options to keep his opponent on his toes at all times. Still, at least all neutral -> stance transitions should provide faster access to stance moves.
Stance mobility
Mobility promotes fluent gameplay. The less viable options you have when pushed to defend besides blocking, the more static, predictable and boring the game becomes. This doesn't mean that Sieg should fly and jump around like Talim (although his SC3/4 stancegame arguably provides better evasion than hers), but obviously gluing him to the spot for him to take it up the ass is not the right way to go about things either. We can - again - look back at past iterations of the series and see that its already been done better and have to - AGAIN - wonder why the fuck this aspect of gameplay was cut out later on. Concerning Sieg specifically there's NBSR (the old Chief Hold from SCH 2), which - apart from looking menacing and manly as fuck - provided great mobility and an actual way of approaching your opponent while already in stance. GYS (old SSH/SRSH transition from neutral in SC2) also comes to mind, but 2_8B+K already serves that purpose. Then theres 6B+K. SRSH is an all-in stance. Entirely without any pokes or defensive options by itself, which is fine. What irks me is that the transition to 6B+K is so slow and clunky, when its purpose is to rush and pressure the opponent. It doesnt even need a TC or an Auto-GI or anything of that sort, but it needs to be quick and cover some distance. Sieg relies heavily on momentum that is created by the opponents hesitation. This is good design in principle when executed correctly, but it is heavily hindered by long-winded animations and huge delays between actions - or moves that plain and simply dont do what theyre supposed to. Which brings me to my next point...
Stance design and tools
Every move needs a purpose, else its just a waste of budget on animations and programming time. Every stance should serve a specific purpose and the tools available from that stance should be designed with that goal in mind. SCH is a good example of this. While the initial evade needs work, the moves from stance all work fine. SCH K as poke/interrupt, SCH A to control steppers, SCH B as whiffpunisher after evade and SCH A+B as combo-follow-up. If it is mobile again, it could use some additions to make it viable as a spacing/approach tool, though. Giving it access to the old SC2 22_88AAB and B6 would be great ways to achieve that.
Then we have SSH. 99% of the times youll go into that stance it will be from 22B and at least 3/4 of the time after the transition youll input SSH A+B to get the fuck away. Even the motion of 4B+K into SSH from neutral is a backstep, so the stance is apparently meant to get some distance to the opponent and set up Siegs spacing game. SSH AA does fine as combo follow-up, SSH K is great as ch fisher, but SSH B... Not only is the move terrible by itself, it also doesnt make any sense design-wise. The stance is not meant for 50/50, so I see little reason to make it a mid combo-starter. A good idea would be to turn it into a semi-slow (i20ish) linear mid that is around +0 on block, pushes the opponent very far on block and hit and only allows for guaranteed follow-ups on air-hit. This is entirely conform with the stance design and also fills a necessary niche to discourage jumpers and set up spacing more effectively (as SSH A+B's purpose is mainly as an evade, its recovery is too long for Sieg to actually space that well afterwards).
SRSH... apart from needing to be turned into an actual dash, has three main problems. First, people can just lie on the ground and not care about the mix-up at all. And second, the core mix-up of the stance can entirely be avoided by stepping to Siegs right. Third, half of the stances moves are plain useless or dont make sense. While the stance doesnt necessarily need to be Siegs main wakeup pressure tool it would make sense design-wise for a dash to set up oki. And all it would take is for one option to be decently fast and hitting grounded/rollers. My suggestion would be to turn SRSH Bs animation into Strifes 6B. Remove the tracking against steppers, but make the hitbox big enough to catch rolls in all directions. Keep SRSH K as it is, a sweep thats aimed at the ankle/calf shouldnt really hit grounded. SRSH A is the most horrible move Ive witnessed in my history with fighting games. Make it mid, fast, slightly unsafe and you have a winner to cover evades and step attempts. SRSH A+B is too slow to be effective in the mix-up and making it faster might make SRSH B obsolete. My suggestion would be giving it guard crush properties to serve the offensive needs of the stance and still provide a viable alternative to the core mix-up already provided. Both a guaranteed low-dmg follow-up and just really high +frames on guard would work fine.
SBH forsakes all mobility to make Sieg a living fortress. The Auto-GI gap needs to go and horizontal kicks either included as auto-GIable or covered by some other defensive option, else its too much of a no-brainer for the opponent to counter the stance, which would make no sense since its entirely defensive in nature. That also makes it problematic to design moves that fit into its design, tho. SBHs core is its auto-GI and it doesnt really need more than one guaranteed follow-up if its auto-GI is made instant (which would make perfect GIs an even rarer occurence than they already are). SBH B is fine as tech-trap and combo follow-up and SBH A+B only really makes sense if its turned into an actually viable TJ and SBH's auto-GI made vulnerable to lows.
Overall, Siegs neutral game also needs some work. It should mainly be made to complement his stance game, solid enough to cover its weaknesses, but not attractive and effective enough for players to actually want to omit Siegs stance game entirely in favor of "safety", cause thats just not manly. Some decent pokes, punishers and spacing tools should do the trick.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
i couldnt agree more with you sacharja. there's a few things that i have different ideas about, but regardless of opinion what you've said pretty much hits the head on the nail. some things i'd like to add:
-Give stances much better mobility when the movement is suited to their purpose ie) SSH should have a particularely noticable and useful backstep/8wayrun movement to further help with spacing.
-make neutral stance transitions short, and make stance~stance transitions take a little longer. although stance~stance transitions themselves shouldnt be too terribly long either. at least much quicker than they are now.
i didnt quite agree with your SSH statement simply being because if SSH B was an i20 SL, regardless of what you do, the opponent simply needs to duck against the stance and excluding SSH A+B either punish or whiff punish, making SSH K serve almost no purpose at all unless neutral transitions are made 1F transitions where SSH K can still CH fish at least from neutral. of course this is also done under the assumption that stance movement hasnt been re-introduced. if it were to be re-introduced, im still not sure if SSH B would need such a drastic change because then it would serve an effective role as a whiff punisher so long as the speed is bumped up by a few frames. or better yet we could go for something similar to SC1's SSH {B} into chief hold or another stance to double as a whiff punisher and a potential oki/mixup tool after whiff punishment.
great stuff for SRSH, and SBH.
on a side note i also still want to see some of those weird collision issues fixed, like stepping through 2A, and 22_88B whiffing and putting your back to your opponent. and again get rid of silly disadvantage stuff like 4B. make 3K NCC and give sieg something different for 11_77K.
-Give stances much better mobility when the movement is suited to their purpose ie) SSH should have a particularely noticable and useful backstep/8wayrun movement to further help with spacing.
-make neutral stance transitions short, and make stance~stance transitions take a little longer. although stance~stance transitions themselves shouldnt be too terribly long either. at least much quicker than they are now.
i didnt quite agree with your SSH statement simply being because if SSH B was an i20 SL, regardless of what you do, the opponent simply needs to duck against the stance and excluding SSH A+B either punish or whiff punish, making SSH K serve almost no purpose at all unless neutral transitions are made 1F transitions where SSH K can still CH fish at least from neutral. of course this is also done under the assumption that stance movement hasnt been re-introduced. if it were to be re-introduced, im still not sure if SSH B would need such a drastic change because then it would serve an effective role as a whiff punisher so long as the speed is bumped up by a few frames. or better yet we could go for something similar to SC1's SSH {B} into chief hold or another stance to double as a whiff punisher and a potential oki/mixup tool after whiff punishment.
great stuff for SRSH, and SBH.
on a side note i also still want to see some of those weird collision issues fixed, like stepping through 2A, and 22_88B whiffing and putting your back to your opponent. and again get rid of silly disadvantage stuff like 4B. make 3K NCC and give sieg something different for 11_77K.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
I never suggested making SSH B a special low, I kind of hate that property to begin with as it only really seems to serve the purpose of keeping fast 2As from being even more overpowered than they already are. Tho Id be totally fine with SSH B becoming an effective whiffpunisher instead of a spacing tool.
As far as pokes go. A return of SC3 66KB, 3K and 4A would be great. I dont really know what to do with the 4B series as its hard to give it a purpose thats not already covered by another poke. I suppose you could make metal music play in the background every time he starts the animation or something.
As far as pokes go. A return of SC3 66KB, 3K and 4A would be great. I dont really know what to do with the 4B series as its hard to give it a purpose thats not already covered by another poke. I suppose you could make metal music play in the background every time he starts the animation or something.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
Safety is for pussies. Id love me some Freeman VAing tho.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
well its manly enough =D
Signia
[13] Hero
That much pushback and only -1 on guard? At i16? You crazy?
Special mid? That's only used as a last resort if the hit level looks completely ambiguous.
Lol you are crazy. i16 attack that's -2, part of a string and positive on hit. Don't you realize how stupid it would be, being able to mixup between finishing or not, while having a strong reverse mixup even if they guess right? At -2 some characters are forced to use something other than a mid if they want to stop your K, and his evades would work at that disadvantage.
And then later you suggest he get an i12 mid? ._.
Please don't suggest specifics like frames of move if you don't understand the current balance of the game... and you won't understand it unless you know everybody's frames (at least the good moves). You also need to understand why the frames are designed in the way they are. Pushback moves have to have negative frames on block proportionate to the length of pushback, mids can't go under i15 unless it's a special case or it has some big weakness or else reverse mixups aren't very different at mid disadvantages compared to low disadvantage.
There are also tons of other rules that are followed in SCIV, and deviations have to have a big price. Don't suggest random shit that's obviously too strong like a safe i13 ringout mid or an i15 low that's positive on hit. And don't fill every small hole the character has, that's what makes characters interesting.
KrayzieCD
[11] Champion
I can tell you didn't play previous Caliburs Signia, frame stats like those were commonplace before SC4.
EminentRising
[09] Warrior
surely we cant be having sieg with normal plus frames and being remotely safe. thats reserved for good characters like X, the greeks, hilde
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Cannot comment on this issue of avaricious wish-lists without noting that i'm in favour of buffs that arn't strictly to help players get away with playing dumb and expecting to win or forcing the opponent to work significantly harder to match them.
Signia
[13] Hero
Nope, but I knew frames were like that in the other games. I just don't see why we'd bring it back to the way it was for Sieg unless everyone else gets similar tools.
wtf does this have to do with anything
I probably know more about your character (in SCIV) than most of you (not slayer), and I know everyone else's frames too (for the important moves). I also know quite a bit of VF5 and some Tekken6 frames for comparison. So I feel like I've got a got pretty good perspective to how different settings in systems of frames (for lack of a better term) affect the game, and the rules of SCIV's system and how moves are balanced.
If you're suggesting all the frames will be different in SCV, and the system will work differently, and that I don't how good it really will be in comparison to everything else... well neither do you. SO it's even more pointless to talk frames in a new game if you think of it that way.
Those moves would be silly in that system...
I think Sieg should at least have a standard mid kick (that's the i15 -6/+4/+4 mid kick that most characters have as their 3K), but not his 3K because it goes into a string. He already gets "fear advantage" if they wait to confirm he's not continuing the string, why add more hitstun and give them less reward if they decide to guess and guess right?
Or he should get more advantage on his b6. +2 doesn't cut it for an i16 move. Should be +4.
I'd also want an i18-i19 mid that makes it scary to not duck that is safe and takes a decent chunk (30ish damage) and/or knocks down. Like 3A but is safe (-9 or whatever is high enough for him not be able reverse mixup using stances) but with no tracking. The way it is now, with strong tracking to one side, and hard to step to the other side? and a mid? with range? rings out and combos by a wall? -15 is about right.
But then I'd ruining what makes this character unique. What's interesting about Sieg is that he can't hang in close range. He has to space where he can catch step (with agA) and they can't. Where he has good mid and low pokes and they don't. Where fast moves won't hit him out of his evades.
I'd rather improve that aspect of his game rather than his weaknesses. Give him a way to get into that spacing, like giving him a backstep that doesn't suck. Or give him Sophie's 4B+K (i20 mid -6/KND/KND with light pushback) or something similar. Though really one could use agA and backstep on block to get out. Make 3B launch at tip range, everyone else's launchers ('cept Cerv's) do, and he uses a big fucking sword.
Outside this sweetspot Siegfried has shit. Once again, he has a big fucking sword, and should not be out-spaced by a Cassandra that knows how to step. His ranged moves should be safer or stronger than most, not the other way around. This weakness should be removed because a character that has bad close range and large weapon should have the upper hand at long range.
His other strength is CH damage, but he needs NH damage too, for no reason other than the fact that his moves are slow and he uses a large weapon. Or, give him more SG damage.
What makes SC unique is the character asymmetry. Idk why every soul arena wants to fuck that up by fixing everyone's weaknesses and making everyone play the same.
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