sdnkorento
[08] Mercenary
GENERAL NOTICES
This study helps to understand capacity of Siegfried's okizeme and pressure game. It also determine if alternative combo-endings are worth to use. For more details of study, please go on with methods and results.
Data is divided in three sections: ”methods and tests” give information of the whole study. It describes testing conditions and assumptions need in whole project. ”Additional tools and data needed” section serves as a ling between methods and the results. ”Research data” contains the values and findings. Some moves are not included A+B for instance, since they have no real good applications or they rarely hit grounded opponents.
Please skip the ”methods and tests”, ”additional tools and data needed” and ”research data” in order to access in framedata and results
METHODS AND TESTS
Tests mainly consisted of frametesting and observations.
Frametests were done by programming computer Sieg to do FIRST input line, and interrupting with character mentioned in SECOND input line. In most cases, I added 66~B+G~wait in computer's inputs to put you in grounded position. Xs are either unknown starting condition or start-up times.
2B~8B (+19 -> i35)
+19 means that 2B ground hit leaves you at +19 frames, and follow-up (8B in this case) has start-up of i35. Unknown starting conditions or start-up speeds are referred as x.
Because I used Nightmare as an assistant in these experiments, I needed both Twisted Jester's and Sacharja's move-framedata. Any errors in them distorts the final results. However, I have confidence in data. And what would it matter if move have +9 instead of +10? In case you want to check up results, retry testing conditions first.
When knocked down, the fastest way to retaliate is to attack straight away, NOT to tech first and then strike. By teching, you receive extra disadvantage, but it all depends on timing. JF ukemis were not used, so it might change things. However, no one is going to pull JF techs on every knock down.
When interrupting from the ground, double-direction moves were avoided, because new buffer-system makes moves like 66B buffering really hard. More reliable results were got by using single-direction moves, (4,6,8) if possible. WS- and FC-moves were also great help. Moves with built-in evasion were pain in ass since they messed up many clashes
ADDITIONAL TOOLS AND DATA NEEDED
Some data weren't available in framedata, especially in Sacharja's material. Therefore some research were done to aid study, mainly on transitions but also on some moves with unknown or unclear speed. Data are doublechecked, but I'm not 100% correct. Maybe stances have some strange properties or tester is just a slowpoke. Errors in these will lead eventually in wrong results.
I tried to not rely much on from-stance-to-stance data. From-neutral-to-stancemoves are better.
FROM-STANCE-TO-STANCE TRANSITIONS
i27 SBH -> SCH
Sieg 2[A+B]~8B+K~SCH K (-4 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close B+K~NSS B (i42)
i23 SBH -> SSH
Sieg 2[A+B]~4B+K~SSH K (-4 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close block 4B (i38)
i26 SBH -> SRSH
Sieg ~6B+K~SRSH B (+0 -> ix -> i17)
Night on block 236~GS A+B (i43)
Sieg ~6B+K~SRSH A+B (+6 -> ix -> i29)
Night on hit 1[A] (i49)
Sieg SCH k~6B+K~SRSH B (-4 -> x -> i17)
Night on block B+K~NSS 236~GS B (i47)
i20 SCH -> SBH
Sieg 3~B+K~SBH K (-5 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close block WL~K (i41)
i27 SCH -> SCH
Sieg WS~2_8B+K~SCH K (-1 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close block B+K NSS A (i39)
i23 SCH -> SSH
Sieg 3~4B+K~SSH K (-5 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close block B+K NSS A (i39)
i21 SCH -> SRSH
Sieg WS~6B+K~SRSH B (-1 -> ix -> i17)
Night on close block B+K NSS A (i39)
i16 SSH -> SBH
Sieg 22~B+K~SBH K (-3 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close block 8B (i34)
Sieg 22~B+K~SBH K (-3 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close block B+K~NSS A+B (i34), NSS A+B beats SBH K though, around i15-16
i21 SSH -> SCH
Sieg [A]~2B+K~SCH B (-4 -> ix -> i18)
Night on close block 236~GS A+B (i43)
Sieg 22~8B+K~SCH K (-3 -> ix -> i11)
Night on block 44B (i35)
Sieg 22~2B+K~SCH K (-3 -> ix -> i11)
Night on block 44B (i35)
i19 SSH -> SRSH
Sieg [A]~6B+K~SRSH B (-4 -> ix -> i17)
Night on close block 2B+K (i40)
i19 SRSH -> SBH
Sieg 88~B+K~SBH K (-3 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close hit 4B (i38)
i24 SRSH -> SCH
Sieg 88_4[A]~8B+K~SCH K (-3 -> ix -> i11)
Night on block B+K~236~GS A (i38)
Sieg SSH [A]~8B+K~SCH B (+1 -> ix -> i18)
Night on block WL~K (i41)
i23 SRSH -> SSH
Sieg 4[A]~4B+K~SSH K (+5 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close hit 1A (i29)
i20 SRSH -> SRSH
Sieg 4[A]~6B+K~SRSH B (-3 -> ix -> i17)
Night on block 2B+K (i40)
Tested many times with different setups
START-UP OF NEUTRAL TO STANCEMOVES
i20 B+K~First input
i36 B+K~SBH K (x -> i16)
i43 B+K~SBH A (x -> i23)
i36 B+K~SBH K
Sieg A~B+K~SBH K (-2 -> ix)
Night on close block 4B (i38)
i43 B+K~SBH K
Sieg A~B+K~SBH A (+4 -> ix)
Night on close hit B+K~NSS A (i39)
i24 4B+K~First input
i35 4B+K~SSH K (x -> i11)
i42 4B+K~SSH A (x -> i18)
i35 4B+K~SSH K
Sieg 4A~4B+K~SSH K (-8 -> ix)
Night on block 236~GS A+B (i43)
i42 4B+K~SSH A
Sieg A~4B+K~SSH A (+4 -> ix)
Night on hit 4B (i38)
i21 6B+K~First input
i50 6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i29)
i38 6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i17)
i39 6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i18)
i50 6B+K~SRSH A+B
Sieg a+kA~6B+K~SRSH A+B (+10 -> ix)
Night on hit 2B+K (i40)
i38 6B+K~SRSH B
Sieg 4A~6B+K~SRSH B (+0 -> ix)
Night on hit 4B (i38)
Tested many times with different setups
i39 6B+K~SRSH K
Sieg 4A~6B+K~SRSH K (+0 -> ix)
Night on hit B+K~NSS A (i39)
i57 6B+K~6B+K~SRSH B
Sieg 4A~6B+K~6B+K~SRSH B (+0 -> ix)
Night on hit B+K~NSS 236~GS A+B (i57)
Strange enough, last transition seems to be like i19 instead of i20. (First one i21 and second is i19)
i25 8B+K~First input
i36 8B+K~SCH K (x -> i11)
i43 8B+K~SCH B (x -> i18)
i36 8B+K~SCH K
Sieg 6A~8B+K~SCH K (-1 -> ix)
Night on close hit 4B (i38)
Sieg agA~8B+K~SCH K (+2 -> ix)
Night on block 8B (i34)
Varies between i36 and i37.
I43 8B+K~SCH B
Sieg agA~8B+K~SCH B (+2 -> ix)
Night on block WL~K (i41)
START-UP OF MOVES IN NEUTRAL
i35 8B
Sieg B6~8B (+1 -> ix)
Night on close hit 8B (i34)
START-UP OF STANCEMOVES
i34 SBH B
Sieg ~SBH B (+0 -> ix)
Night on block 22B (i33), 22B beats SBH B
Night on block 8B (i34), trade almost impossible to get
i43 SCH {2}
Sieg a+k~SCH{2} (+17 -> ix)
Night on close hit 8A (i26)
BLOCKSTUNS
SCH k~SBH Block -4
Sieg SCH k~SBH K (x -> i16)
Night on block FC 3B (i20)
RESEARCH DATA
Framedata consist of frames and test-conditions in case you want to retake the test. Frames indicated how many frames are added in enemy's move in order to make characters clash or double hit so +16 DOESN'T mean free 1K. Framedata won't tell how far move leaves your opponent, so having tons of frames won't bring you happiness if you cannot use time advantage effectively.
First row contains advantage given and damage inflicted on grounded opponent (which is 70% from standing damage). Second and third row describes testing conditions. Other rows are just extra information. Due to possible errors, the real values might vary +-2 or so. Some curious observations are included in some moves.
THROWS:
A+G Hit +16
Sieg A+G~8B (x-> i35)
Sieg WR 4K (i19)
B+G Hit +16
Sieg B+G~8B (x -> i35)
Sieg WR 4K (i19)
FC A+G Hit +34
FC A+G~6B+K~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i57)
Night WS A (i23)
Free 33B Guaranteed near wall for 45 Dmg
FC A_B+G Lift up GHit +14, Dmg 0
FC A+G~8B (x -> i35)
Downed head first Night 2K (i21)
Another throw after lift won't connect and nothing is guaranteed. Not escapable on ground hit. Catch side-rolls and gives headlift if opponent is landed head first but in other cases only ground spin. Front-roll gives only ground spins and back-rolls probably avoids all.
FC A_B+G Ground spin GHit +0, Dmg 0
FC A+G~1K (x -> i15)
Downed leg first Night WS K (i15)
Not escapable on ground hit
1B Hit +5
1B~1A (x -> i27)
Night BT 2A (i21), Nightmare beats 1A
1B~6B (x -> i25)
Night BT 2A (i21), Sieg beats BT 2A. Therefore, it's atleast +5~+6
GROUND HITS:
1A GHit +8, Dmg 11
1A~1A (x -> i27)
Night WR BT 2K (i19)
Turns opponent to BT. Catches all roll directions, but miss opponent who is lying close Sieg.
1AA GHit +8, Dmg 18
1AA~6B (x -> i25)
Night FC A (i17)
6B crushes 2A meaning they hit at the same time. Try Night 2B (-8) on block followed by 2A against Sieg's 6B and observe clash. If first A connects, only back-tech is possible. Rollers get hit and techers re-KD. On close, wont' hit at all.
B GHit +22, Dmg 11
B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS B (i16)
Doesn't really catch side-rolls
~SBH GHit +30~31, Dmg 11
~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i26 -> i17)
Night WR 6K (i14), SRSH B beats 6K - advantage more than +29
~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night WR 8K (i23),8K beats SRSH A+B - advantage less than +32
Using SBH K as a tech-trap fails, because opponent must tech front to get hitted.
B2A GHit +14, Dmg 21
B2A~8B (i35)
Night BT 2A (i21)
If first B connects, A will tech-traps techs to Sieg's right. A can be escaped by teching backwards and it is blockable but it still hits grounded if they're not too close and catches side-rollers. Won't hit grounded if they lie too close.
B2[A] GHit +18, Dmg 28
B2[A]~8B (i35)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Charged A hits grounded if they're not too close and catches side-rollers.
BB GHit +11, Dmg 9
BB~1A (x -> i27)
Night WS B (i16)
Sideteching is possible after first B.
BBB GHit +9, Dmg 16
BBB~6B (x -> i25)
Night WS B (i16)
Sideteching is possible after first B.
BB~SCH GHit +22, Dmg 16
BB~SCH B{2} (x -> i43)
Night FC 3B (i20), FC 3B beats SCH B
Night FC 2B (i22), SCH B beats FC 2B, therefore +22
Side-teching is possible after first B.
2B~FC GHit +19, Dmg 12
2B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches rollers to Sieg's right side, but has a short range.
2~SBH GHit +25, Dmg 12
2~6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i26 -> i18)
Night FC 3B (i20), SRSH K beats FC 3B, advantage more then +24
2~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i26 -> i17)
Night WR 4K (i17), 4K beats SRSH B, advantage less than +26
3~SCH GHit +26, Dmg 12 or 19 (33B 14 or 21)
3~SCH {2} (x -> i43)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Catch rolls to Sieg's left. Lift opponent pretty far when hit grounded
7B GHit +18, Dmg 16
7B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night FC 3B (i20)
Note the difference between 7B and 8B. Doesn't catch side-rolls
8B GHit +23, Dmg 19
8B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS K (i15)
Doesn't catch side-roll
9B GHit +22, Dmg 22
9B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS B (i16)
Somehow trading WS K was impossible. Though +1 compared to 8B might sound small, it was pretty clear in tests.
B4 & B:4 GHit +27, Dmg 29 or 33 (B:4)
B4~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i50)
Night WS A (i23)
Catch rollers to Sieg's right, but might miss depending on range. Seems to be more reliable on close
22B GHit +5, Dmg 18
22B~6B (x -> i25)
Night FC 3B (i20)
Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's left side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
22~SSH GHit +25, Dmg 18
22~2B+K~SCH B (x -> i21 -> i18)
Night WR 6K (i14)
Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's left side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
33~SCH GHit +26, Dmg 14 or 21
33~SCH {2} (x -> i43)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Catch rolls to Sieg's left. Lift opponent pretty far when hit grounded
44B GHit +15, Dmg 26
44B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WR 8K (i23)
Doesn't catch side-roll.
44~SBH GHit +38, Dmg 26
44~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Doesn't catch side-roll
44BB GHit +10, Dmg 21
44BB~1A (x -> i27)
Night WR 4K (i17)
44B~SBH GHit +19, Dmg 21
44B~SCH {2} (x- > i43)
Night WS A (i23), beats SCH
Night BT 2B (i25), lose to SCH
Therefore, around +19
66B~FC GHit +10~11, Dmg 29
66B~8B (i35)
Night WR 6B_FC 2B (i22)
Sometimes 8B lost to Night's 2B after shallow ground hit of 66B. On close, +11. Have no roll-catching abilities but fairly good tracking. Opponent must me on the roll to avoid hit. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
88B GHit +5, Dmg 18
88B~6B (x -> i25)
Night FC 3B (i20)
Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's right side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
88~SRSH GHit +28, Dmg 18
88~8B+K~SCH B (x -> i24 -> i18)
Night WR 6K (i14)
Seems like transitions into SSH or SRSH have same speed, unlike usual. Despite the small +3 difference, 22_88 are virtually same. Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's right side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
1K~FC GHit +16, Dmg 9
1K~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR BT 2K (i19)
On hit, turns opponent into grounded BT. Catch all roll-directions but has short range so easily escaped by rolling away from Sieg
2K GHit +8, Dmg 7
2K~B (x -> i24)
Night WS B (i16)
Doesn't catch side-roll
2KK GHit +6, Dmg 4
2KK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
2KKK GHit +6, Dmg 2
2KKK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
2KKKK GHit +6, Dmg 2
2KKKK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
2KKKKK GHit +6, Dmg 2 (Add up to 19 due to rounding)
2KKKKK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
3KK GHit +11, Dmg 9
3KK~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR 8K (i23), 8K beats 8B
Night BT 2B (i25), 8B beats BT 2B, therefore advantage is +11
Catch all roll-directions but has short range
2A+B GHit +17, Dmg 23
2A+B~6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WR 6B (i22)
Doesn't catch side-roll
2[A+B]~SBH GHit +30~31, Dmg 23
2[A+B]~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i26 -> i17)
Night WR 6K (i14), SRSH B beats 6K - advantage more than +29
2[A+B]~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night WR 8K (i23), 8K beats SRSH A+B - advantage less than +32
Doesn't catch side-roll
66A+B GHit +6, Dmg 30
66A+B~FC 2B (i22)
Night WS B (i16)
Have slight ability to catch rollers to Sieg's right
a+kA:2A GHit +23, Dmg 12
a+kA:2A~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS K (i15
Hits only when opponent lying sideways and is not too close, but when they start rolling this hits normally. Catch all rolls, but it's a bit range-dependant. Second A avoidable by teching back. Depends lots on distance and it's not as reliable as 1AA. Damage is usually 2 more because of sidehit.
SBH A+B GHit +19, Dmg 29
SBH A+B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches rollers of Sieg's right. Covers left side too, but only if opponent is far away. May jump over grounded opponent.
SBH B GHit +19, Dmg 26
SBH B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WS B (i16)
SBH B will catch rolling to Sieg's right. On top of that, they will end up really close Sieg, which will benefit Sieg
SBH [K] GHit +15, Dmg 17-16-15 (add up to 49 because of rounding and second hit being 75%)
SBH [K]~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR BT A (i20)
No roll-catching, but leaves close on hit
SCH B GHit +17, Dmg 14
SCH B~6B+K ~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WR 6B (i22)
Catches rollers to Siegfried's left
SCH {1} GHit +23, Dmg 17
SCH B~6B+K ~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches rollers to Siegfried's left.
SCH {2} GHit +24, Dmg 24
SCH B~6B+K ~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WS K (i15)
Catches rollers to Siegfried's left. The difference between SCH {1} and SCH {2} tested many times.
SCH kB GHit +6, Dmg 15
SCH kB~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR 4A (i29)
No roll-catching
SCH k~SCH GHit +19, Dmg 15
SCH k~6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night FC 3B (i20)
No roll-catching
SSH A GHit +9, Dmg 14
SSH A~6B+K~SRSH B (i38)
Night WR 4A (i29)
Catch all roll directions
SSH [A]~SRSH GHit +9, Dmg 14
SSH [A]~SRSH A+B (x -> i29)
Sieg WR 4K (i19), 4K beats SRSH A+B
Night FC 3B (i20), SRSH A+B beats FC 3B, advantage around +9
SSH AA GHit +9, Dmg 25
SSH AA~1A (x -> i27)
Night FC 2A (i17), FC 2A beats 1A
Night FC 3B (i20), 1A beats FC 3B, advantage around +7~+9
SSH B GHit +18, Dmg 21 or 24 (shallow or deep hit)
SSH B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Hits rollers if they rolls to Sieg's left
SSH ~SBH GHit +33, Dmg 21 or 24
SSH ~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night FC 2B (i22)
Hits rollers if they rolls to Sieg's left
SRSH A+B~FC GHit +9, Dmg 33
SRSH A+B~6B (x -> i25)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches slightly rollers to Sieg's left. Better tracking while hunting rollers from far. Damage is usually 2 more because of sidehit.
BT BB GHit +14, Dmg 16
BT BB~8B (i35)
Night BT 2A (i21)
BT B doesn't have ground hit properties. BT BB catches rollers who try to roll Sieg's right.
BT 2K GHit +15, Dmg 8
BT 2K~8B (i35), used FC B+G and 44B~SBH A+BG as setups
Night FC 3B (i20)
Catches all side-rolls.
STUN HITS:
CH SBH K CHit +33
CH WS B~SCH k~SBH K~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i50)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Also tested with plain CH SBH K and same results
MISCELLANEOUS:
WS ~SCH
Knocks back so much that SCH K won't connect except near wall or edge. Possible to ringout with SCH KK
SSH A+B
Hit grounded but advantage is useless since you spin away.
SRSH B
Has shallow hit for 18 damage and deep hit for 28 damage. No other difference found between hits.
RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS
This section's purpose is to sum up whole study. All results and conclusions are drawn from data section, only the most common knowledge is not found from there. Do not forget that conclusions reflects author's gaming style though it aims to be all-round information package for different kind of Siegfried-players.
GROUND-HITS ADVANTAGES:
Bread 'n' butter -moves highlighted. The stance-transition moves are most beneficial as expected. Surprisingly, none of moves were negative, which indicate that SC4's ground-game mechanics have unwent changes. Please notice that values are not 100% correct and should be study with care. Do not draw hasty conclusions.
Keep in mind that you'll usually end up with greater advantage than it's listed. Opponent must be quick to react fast and have timing to buffer his/her moves.
+0 Flapjack (Ground-spin)
+5 22B / 88B
+6 2KK-series / 66A+B / SCH kB
+8 1A_AA / 2K
+9 BBB / SSH A_[A]_AA / SRSH A+B
+10 44BB / 66B
+11 BB / 3KK
+14 B2A / BT BB / Flapjack (Lift Up)
+15 44B / SBH [K] / BT 2K
+16 1K
+17 2A+B / SCH B
+18 B2[A] / 7B / SSH B
+19 2B / 44B / SBH B / SBH A+B / SCH k
+22 B / BB / 9B
+23 8B / a+kA:2A / SCH {1}
+24 SCH {2}
+25 2 / 22
+26 3 / 33
+27 B:4 / B4
+28 88
+30 / 2[A+B]
+33 SSH
+38 44
GROUND-HITS DAMAGES:
This chart shows how much damage each move deals. Only 2KKKKK and SBH [K] are added as combo. S stands for shallow hit and D stands for deep hit. Plus-sign mean that move will usually cause sidehit on grounded opponent which will cause more damage.
0 Flapjack (Ground-spin) / Flapjack (Lift Up)
7 2K
8 BT 2K
9 BB / 1K / 3KK
11 1A / B
12 2B / 3B(s) / a+kA:2A(+)
14 33B(s) / SCH B / SSH A
15 SCH kB
16 BBB / 7B / BT BB
17 SCH {1}
18 1AA
19 3B(d) / 8B / 22B(+) / 88B(+) / 2K-series
21 B2A / 33B(d) / 44B / SSH B
22 9B
23 2A+B
24 SCH {2}
25 SSH AA
26 44B / SBH B
28 B2[A]
29 B4 / 66B(+) / SBH A+B
30 66A+B
33 B:4 / SRSH A+B(+)
49 SBH [K]
OKIZEME-RELATED ADVANTAGES:
CH SBH K was included because it's resemble ground-hit combo-ender. Throws are included because frames gives general idea of after-throw pressure
+5 1B
+16 A_B+G
+33 CH SBH K
+34 FC A+G
STANCE-TRANSITION SPEEDS:
Transition speeds indicate how much you must add to stance-move's start-up time. For example, it takes i38 to do SCH K from SBH. As you see, entering into SBH is fast but getting into SCH take longest time. SRSH and SSH are quite equal.
These data can be used to find out if you have uninterruptible stance-moves follow-ups. For example, after successful 22B ground-hit (+25), you have uninterruptible SRSH K (i19+i18) unless opponent has i12 mid or low.
When opponent realize that he/she can't get up without putting their head in lion's mouth, they prefer rolling. That's where anti-rolling tools comes into play.
From neutral to:
i19 SRSH
From SBH to:
i23 SSH
i26 SRSH
i27 SCH
From SCH to:
i20 SBH
i21 SRSH
i23 SSH
i27 SCH
From SSH to:
i16 SBH
i19 SRSH
i21 SCH
From SRSH to:
i19 SBH
i20 SRSH
i23 SSH
i24 SCH
In other words, getting into certain stance takes:
To SBH:
i16 from SSH
i19 from SRSH
i20 from SCH and from neutral
To SCH:
i19 from SSH
i24 from SRSH
i25 from neutral
i27 from SBH or another SCH
To SSH:
i23 from every stance
i24 from neutral
To SRSH:
i19 from SSH and from neutral
i20 from another SRSH
i21 from SCH
i26 from SBH
For uninterruptible SSH As you need around +30 from ground-hit. If you love SSH, know the right situations for maximum effect. Curiously, you get faster into SSH when switching from stance.
SRSH transitions are generally fast except from SBH. and 2[A+B] gives both +30 on ground-hit making your 6B+K~SRSH B (i26 + i17) very hard to interrupt. As SSH and 44 gives even more than +30, the only problem is to make opponent stand. Another almost-uninterruptible SRSH B (i21+i17) attempt is after 3 on ground-hit which yields +26. Note that SRSH-mixup is not guaranteed after B4.
ANTI-ROLLING MOVES:
All moves that have some kind of roll-catching ability listed below. By roll-catching I mean ability to catch left or right rolls. Some important moves picked up and listed in the end.
Moves that catch Sieg's left:
3B (Fast)
SCH Bs (Stancemove)
SSH B (Stancemove)
SRSH A+B (Stancemove)
Moves that catch Sieg's right:
B4 (Slow)
2B (Short range)
SBH B (Stancemove)
SBH A+B (Stancemove)
66A+B (Weak roll-catch)
BT BB (BT-move)
Moves that cover both sides:
22B (Left roll preferred)
88B (Right roll prefferd)
66B (Not a real roll-catcher, has nice tracking only)
1A (Long range only)
SSH As (Long range only)
a+kA:2A (Long range only, doesn't have normal ground hit)
B2A (Long range only)
BT K (Medium range, but BT-move)
1K (Short range, fast)
Flapjack (Short range)
3KK (Short range, nearly useless)
Recommended:
3B – For left side, great speed, good advantage
22_88B – Excellent covering both sides, great advantage
1K – For short range catching, great speed, decent advantage
a+kA:2A – For long range catching both sides, great advantage
COMBO-ENDERS AND TECH-TRAPS:
Besides of the most damaging combo-enders, 66B, 44K, 66A+B and SRSH A+B, Siegfried has somewhat wide selection of moves that gives good pressure after knockdown or combo. Depending on how much risk you are willing to take, the choices will shape your okizeme-style.
Generally, only SRSH B grants all okizeme-options, SBH B and SCH {2} allows ways for opponent to tech out of slowest slams and shorter stuns shut the most interesting moves out. Alternative for the ones mentioned before is B4 which gives nice damage but great advantage as well. For those who want to gamble there are 44, 22_88 or even 2[A+B] and if you can't make 44 to connect.
For deeper analysis, each situation must be studied separated. Not every characters were tested and some side-teching directions depends on character. Reliable only with Siegfried but data will give big picture. Keep in mind that every detail is observed though – none is made from my mind. In case of error test Siegfried or different range.
SRSH B
Easy to set up, the best combo-starter for Siegfried. Heavily punishable, so better make successful SRSH B worth it. Has two versions, shallow hit (18 damage) and deep hit (damage)
66B and 66A+B
Deals over 60 damage but leaves you with almost barely significant advantage. 66B and 66A+B put you in FC with tiny advantage which will limit you options effectively.
B4, B:4 and 1AA
1AA nets you 60 damage. Though it's is a tech-trap, it push opponent pretty far negating plus-frames. B4s give great advantage and +60 damage as well. Delay them a bit to set a tech-trap, which can be escaped to Sieg's left. Prefer these over 66B and 66A+B
44B
44B's follow-ups can grant you extra damage but punishment as well. 44B and SBH B will force them to stand up or tech, which allows SBH K to step in. In addition to this, you can enter into SRSH-stance, which has pure 50-50-mixup and possibility to smash lying opponent with SRSH A+B. Sadly enough, four out of these five options are punishable but damage will easily increase up to 80-100. In addition to every built-in traps, 44B itself works as a all-catching tech-trap.
22
Where as 88 is watered down version of 44, 22 opens even more stance-options. SSH has generally slow mix-up with not so devastating effects but it still has it's use. You won't be in big danger even if your follow-ups fails.
88 and 2[A+B]
2[A+B] is similar to 44, but you're no able to enter SRSH-stance without a chance getting interrupted. 88 place you straight into 50-50 mix-up but with no real threats to make opponent stand up. Therefore both of these are not recommended.
1B
Tech-traps every direction but you need to step once forward. Step to your left before 1B might help as well. On hit, +90 damage but have to be done very quick to cover every direction. Be sure to train this well before trying out in real fights because there's no award for missed 1B
B2A and
While allows you to enter SBH with same advantage as 2[A+B], you can tech-trap them with B2A giving opponent more pressure. If the lying opponents gives headache, smash them up with B2A (with slight delay it will hit after shallow SRSH B), SBH B or just 33B after plain B. To avoid all this, they must tech backwards or to your left, so enter into SRSH where you can freely mix-up without being interrupted. Don't you too often due to uncertainties.
Conclusions
B4s, 1AA, variations of 44Bs, 22 and sometimes B-variants. Avoid 66B and other sluggish moves since you have better moves available
SBH B
Though SBH B has highest damage output, you won't bump into it very often. Almost 100% guaranteed after late B+K GI. Because it is launcher, you can apply highs such as a
A as well.
66B, 44K and 66A+B
Sluggish moves deals most damage again, this time scaling up to 72+. Using these kills your okizeme, in fact 44K putting you in disadvantage. 44K have slight front-RO properties but 3B or 3A do the same trick with easier timing.
B4 and B:4
B4s is not a100% tech-trap anymore. On close the fastest B4 is 100% guaranteed, others can be avoided by teching Sieg's left. From further every hit will land and even tech-trap every direction. Not spammable because of tricky timing, but gives great advantages on hit and +70 damage as well.
44B
Nothing special, +65 damage and a tech-trap if you have good timing. Otherwise the same old reliable 44B
a+kA:2AA and 1AA
First one has somewhat hard timing, but grants you +70 damage and cannot be escaped. 1AA won't work well, so this time, prefer a+kA:2AA. Push opponent pretty far though.
22_88
Because SBH B is launcher and follow-up will lift them again. Opponent cannot tech and therefore avoid SSH B or SRSH A+B unless they roll or stand-up which leaves them open to your nasty mix-ups. SSH A will catch all rolling directions but 88 has no real answers against rollers to Sieg's right. You can do plain 88B and 1K the rollers and have decent frames on close. In short, both are viable options to keep pressure on.
aA
Worth to mention: nice damage, decent wake-up, but insane when you wall-splat them for relaunch.
Conclusions
Different variations of 44Bs for daredevils. Sometimes B4, 22_88, a+kA:2AA and aA's near walls. For ringouts just 3A or 44K. 66B, 66A+B and 44K if you want highest guaranteed damage.
SCH {2}
Just like SBH B, this gives nice damage, but it's hard to pull this without being stepped, interrupted or GIed. Sidehit gives better damage and shuts out some tech possibilities.
66B and 66A+B
Both hits +70, but only 66B is reliable. 66A+B can be teched to Sieg's side depending on character but on side hit it will connect.
B4s
Tech-traps only Sieg's right, front and backward. Even sidehit won't change properties. 70 damage plus tech-trap and yields nice advantage.
44B
Techable to both sides on normal hit, but during sidehit will catch every direction. However watch out for close hit, because 44B might jump pass opponent. Damage is good, +65 and wake-up monstrous
3B, 3A and agA
For ringouts to front, just use this. Not tremendous pushback, but good enough to win by RO. Damage is +60 and they all give decent advantage. Near wall, aA might splat but it's hard to pull. Forget 66A because it has the same damage but might miss on bad timing.
22_88
Just like after SBH B, puts some pressure on opponent to stand up. After 88 they can avoid SRSH A+B by rolling to Sieg's right, but after 22 they cannot roll to any direction. Just condition them well with 1K after 88B and everything is fine.
2A+B
If hit, does +60 damage but SBH K won't tech-trap. However on sidehit SBH K will catch them all and it won't whiff like 44B does. Sadly some characters won't get hit at all by 2A+B.
1AA and a+kA:2AA
1AA has issues to hit close but when it connects it cannot be avoided or teched without getting even more punishment. Opponent can tech a+kA2:AA into normal hit making second A useless. Use 1AA to keep them grounded and apply your more devastating and advantageous moves,
Conclusions
SCH {2} leaves you few options because almost every move can be teched to your left. Condition them with 1AA and 66B and confuse them with 44Bs and B4s. Spice up their lives with 22_88 to mess them even more.
B4 and B:4
Slow and rare-to-hit but good to know how to handle this one. B:4 kills some tech-options which make it better not only damage-wise.
33B
Easy way to score +60. No escape, unless you delay to try tech-catching. Decent advantage.
1B
Tech-traps every direction but if opponent is too far, they can escape to your right. However after B:4, this will catch right tech from a bit further. On hit, +105 damage which definitely encourage opponent to lie down. On hit, almost no advantage but it's worth it.
22_88
Another fast move that cannot be rolled easily. It's not blockable but opponent can avoid these by teching. Sometimes they catch techers but it's very very unreliable. After B:4 these catch techers of side they are designed to hit.
B4s and 44Bs
Easily avoidable. Not recommended unless you want to encourage them to tech or roll.
Conclusions
33B is guaranteed, easy and damaging, but to aim higher you have to apply 1B and 22_88. Sometimes mix some B4s and 44Bs.
The rest
Apply 33B and 1Ks. They're fastest viable ground-hitting options since A+B have habit to mess things up. Encourage opponent to play dead if you want to hit some slower slams on them.
MOVES FROM NEUTRAL – OKIZEME APPLICATIONS:
Throws
Solid +16 situation. Both throws leave opponent to the same distance, but B+G set them head first (notable if you want lift them up with flapjacks).
Flapjacks
Gives delicious advantage after successful throw, but put you out of 3B range. Waste of momentum if done against downed opponent. No damage, no real advantage just a spin or in the best case, +14 frames by lifting them up. Sometimes might be useful to stop rollers, ie. after B+G. Best if you catch them standing, since head lift won't guarantee you throw-mid -mixup. Nice way to waste time if you aim for a time out victory.
1A-series
Good anti-rolling tool. Once you hit, they have hard time to avoid second swing. Somewhat unsafe, has problems to hit point-blank downed and pushes opponent away on hits melting down small advantage. Good combo-enders but poorly rewarding on roll-catching.
B-series
The most handy ones are (+30 frames), B (+22) and B2A (+14). By mixing these 3, you can pressure downed foe, but use sparingly. Bs doesn't have side-roll catching properties, which limit its use quite even more. From you have almost uninterruptible SRSH-mixup – transition takes 26 frames.
1B
Not that useful tech-trap anymore. It still has nice applications and good trapping when used point-blank. On connected hit mild advantage.
2Bs
2 (+25 frames) is not as advantageous as but it's faster and has small roll-catch to your right. Watch out for short range. Plain 2B (+19) is usable too. Because Bs and 2Bs won't do much damage, they rarely are worthy of being combo-enders. Throwing them out now and then in wake-ups won't hurt you though.
3 and 33
Fast, average damage and decent frames (+26) on paper. Bread'n'butter okizeme-tools, nice against rollers to your left side. Always aim for 33-version to get more damage. Troublesome if they managed to block this, but not catastrophic. Remember that you'll push foe quite far and you're put into SCH which sucks at wake-ups. Try get into SRSH where your SRSH B and K are hard to stop.
7_8_9B
Mediocre speed, damage and advantage (+22~+23). Sounds ridiculous to pull this on wake-ups, but has many assets: after many moves you can pressure them with 9B because of its long range. Even if you got blocked, they're put in FC and with only mild advantage. On hit, you won't get anything guaranteed but you will keep them close and yourself in normal state. In comparison with 6B, this is safer and more reliable way to continue your game after throw or mid-range knowdown. For fast solution, prefer 33. Watch out for side-rollers, although this can beat them sometimes
B4 and B:4
Powerful but slow downward slam. Though this have small roll-catching, use this as a combo-ender since it gives great frames (+27) which is the best neutral advantage available.
22 and 88
These brothers can launch on successful tech-trap, but finding good setups might be hard because usually they could be replaced with even better combo-ender, like 44B. 22_88's main use is roll-catching which they do more than well: good cover, good damage and great advantage. Suffers little from range and not-so-fast start-up.
44B-series
Well-telegraphed and therefore useless in situations where is not guaranteed. Monster on ground-hit, allows many dangerous but also risky follow-ups without chance to be interrupted. Use as much as you are ready to take risks. On block, you can make your way out of danger
66B
For high base or gauge damage, use this. For roll-catching, further okizeme or safeness, avoid this. Tracks fairly well but cannot hit rolling foe. I won't recommended this at any situation.
1K
Fastest ground-hitting move with small range, weak damage and decent advantage. Best used to cover both rolling sides, but if there's other options, forget this. Make sure to hit grounded one, because otherwise you will lose momentum.
2K-series
Showy and annoying stomps, put +2 to opponent's anger-meter and yields you from +6~+8 advantage on close. Tends to hit even better than in SC3 and gives somewhat decent damage but not preferable as a combo-ender or roll-catcher. Practically just a parlor-trick
3KK
First K will reveal your intentions leaving you in great danger. Same as 1K but slower and less advantageous. In case that you manage to connect this on grounded opponent, keep up pressuring, the momentum is still there.
2A+B
Slow low with quite a long range. Has problems to hit enemy grounded on close. Great advantage on hit especially when ending up into SBH, but not enough to make it as monstrous as 44B. Too linear to applied as roll-catcher but might have some use to catch long-distance back-rollers. Use SBH B to make them stand and mix them down with SRSH-mixup.
66A+B
Same as 66B but a tid bit safer and damaging. However no roll-catching or tracking and even worse advantage (not negative though). Built-in TJ might avoid 2As or lows, but practically useless.
a+kA2:A
1A-look-a-like, but with problematic ground-hit: when opponent lies still won't hit (unless they're lying sideways)! Once they roll, this slash catch them with great advantage (+20) and decent damage. Covers both sides well and usable as a combo-ender after SBH B. On block somewhat unsafe, but gorgeous on standing hit – be sure to use this.
BT BB
First B doesn't hit grounded and while second does, opponent might have caught your idea. Hard to set up, but decent reward on hit. Small roll-catching abilities, but rather unsafe. Make sure to hit grounded, on hit against standing opponent leaves you -7.
BT 2K
Good frames on hit, whether on standing opponent or not. Very unsafe so don't be too careless. Catch nicely rollers but has limited range.
STANCE COMPARISON AND ANALYSIS:
Siegfried's stance-game is vital but in the same time quite inadequate in wake-ups. This next section breaks down whole stance-game into separate stances.
SBH
The biggest drawback in this stance is its speed. Even the damage-output won't compensate as your fastest ground-hitting option is SBH B. Luckily you have SBH K, a fast tech-trap, but you'll end up in bad situation if it only pushes air or smashes against block. Base Hold is still excellent after 44 and somewhat fine after and 2[A+B]. Ground-hitters are safe enough but only SBH A+B covers both side-rolling directions. Advantage is mediocre
Pros: Damage, safeness, advantage on hit
Cons: Slow, somewhat weak to rolls
SCH
Chief Hold suffers most of the lack of pressure tools. With two highs and mids, you're left without lows. The mids would be well enough if they leads in to good advantage or damage but rewards on hit are poor. In addition to that, opponent can roll to theirs heart content and you have no real ways to force them up. In short, SCH has the safest and fastest moves, but lacks okizeme capacity.
Pros: Safeness, advantage on hit
Cons: No lows, only two mids, totally vulnerable to rollers moving to Sieg's right
SRSH
On standing state, SRSH is most offensive stance thanks to its 50-50-mix-up, but like in SCH, you're no able to force opponent to take it if they know to tech and roll to your right. In addition to this, SRSH A+B is quite slow and the 50-50 is quite unsafe.
Pros: Powerful mix-up, fast and damaging against standing opponent, built-in forward dash
Cons: Unsafe, only one slow ground-hitter, weak against rolls to your right, weak advantage on hit
SSH
This stance has the best options to force opponent to stand and block. SSH A is fast, covers things quite well and has option to SRSH. Along with that, SSH B and SSH A+B are good alternatives. All SSH-moves are somewhat safe and fast but they won't make Siegfried top-tier. On ground hit, advantages varies from mediocre to great. Too bad Siegfried lacks ground-hitting moves to end up in SSH
Pros: Covers rollers, ground-hitting lows, fast, somewhat safe
Cons: Built-in backstep, limited ways to get into this stance
Lastly, to keep up momentum you have to be highly creative. Many times it just won't be enough. Canceling into standing state or FC might be good to keep your stance okizeme effective, because there's no things to abuse mindlessly. Being more in SSH helps, but transitions tends to draw you away from opponent. Just make sure to have enough advantage, short distance and/or well-conditioned victim.
LAST THOUGHTS AND CREDIT
I hope that this gives new insights into Siegfried gameplay, since I wasted more like 30 hours on this. The study won't probably change your style, but it definitely gave me some fresh ideas to approach knockdows. It also clarified some rumours about not-so-well-known moves. Happy hunting
Thanks Sacharja and Twisted Jester for framedata.
This study helps to understand capacity of Siegfried's okizeme and pressure game. It also determine if alternative combo-endings are worth to use. For more details of study, please go on with methods and results.
Data is divided in three sections: ”methods and tests” give information of the whole study. It describes testing conditions and assumptions need in whole project. ”Additional tools and data needed” section serves as a ling between methods and the results. ”Research data” contains the values and findings. Some moves are not included A+B for instance, since they have no real good applications or they rarely hit grounded opponents.
Please skip the ”methods and tests”, ”additional tools and data needed” and ”research data” in order to access in framedata and results
METHODS AND TESTS
Tests mainly consisted of frametesting and observations.
Frametests were done by programming computer Sieg to do FIRST input line, and interrupting with character mentioned in SECOND input line. In most cases, I added 66~B+G~wait in computer's inputs to put you in grounded position. Xs are either unknown starting condition or start-up times.
2B~8B (+19 -> i35)
+19 means that 2B ground hit leaves you at +19 frames, and follow-up (8B in this case) has start-up of i35. Unknown starting conditions or start-up speeds are referred as x.
Because I used Nightmare as an assistant in these experiments, I needed both Twisted Jester's and Sacharja's move-framedata. Any errors in them distorts the final results. However, I have confidence in data. And what would it matter if move have +9 instead of +10? In case you want to check up results, retry testing conditions first.
When knocked down, the fastest way to retaliate is to attack straight away, NOT to tech first and then strike. By teching, you receive extra disadvantage, but it all depends on timing. JF ukemis were not used, so it might change things. However, no one is going to pull JF techs on every knock down.
When interrupting from the ground, double-direction moves were avoided, because new buffer-system makes moves like 66B buffering really hard. More reliable results were got by using single-direction moves, (4,6,8) if possible. WS- and FC-moves were also great help. Moves with built-in evasion were pain in ass since they messed up many clashes
ADDITIONAL TOOLS AND DATA NEEDED
Some data weren't available in framedata, especially in Sacharja's material. Therefore some research were done to aid study, mainly on transitions but also on some moves with unknown or unclear speed. Data are doublechecked, but I'm not 100% correct. Maybe stances have some strange properties or tester is just a slowpoke. Errors in these will lead eventually in wrong results.
I tried to not rely much on from-stance-to-stance data. From-neutral-to-stancemoves are better.
FROM-STANCE-TO-STANCE TRANSITIONS
i27 SBH -> SCH
Sieg 2[A+B]~8B+K~SCH K (-4 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close B+K~NSS B (i42)
i23 SBH -> SSH
Sieg 2[A+B]~4B+K~SSH K (-4 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close block 4B (i38)
i26 SBH -> SRSH
Sieg ~6B+K~SRSH B (+0 -> ix -> i17)
Night on block 236~GS A+B (i43)
Sieg ~6B+K~SRSH A+B (+6 -> ix -> i29)
Night on hit 1[A] (i49)
Sieg SCH k~6B+K~SRSH B (-4 -> x -> i17)
Night on block B+K~NSS 236~GS B (i47)
i20 SCH -> SBH
Sieg 3~B+K~SBH K (-5 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close block WL~K (i41)
i27 SCH -> SCH
Sieg WS~2_8B+K~SCH K (-1 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close block B+K NSS A (i39)
i23 SCH -> SSH
Sieg 3~4B+K~SSH K (-5 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close block B+K NSS A (i39)
i21 SCH -> SRSH
Sieg WS~6B+K~SRSH B (-1 -> ix -> i17)
Night on close block B+K NSS A (i39)
i16 SSH -> SBH
Sieg 22~B+K~SBH K (-3 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close block 8B (i34)
Sieg 22~B+K~SBH K (-3 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close block B+K~NSS A+B (i34), NSS A+B beats SBH K though, around i15-16
i21 SSH -> SCH
Sieg [A]~2B+K~SCH B (-4 -> ix -> i18)
Night on close block 236~GS A+B (i43)
Sieg 22~8B+K~SCH K (-3 -> ix -> i11)
Night on block 44B (i35)
Sieg 22~2B+K~SCH K (-3 -> ix -> i11)
Night on block 44B (i35)
i19 SSH -> SRSH
Sieg [A]~6B+K~SRSH B (-4 -> ix -> i17)
Night on close block 2B+K (i40)
i19 SRSH -> SBH
Sieg 88~B+K~SBH K (-3 -> ix -> i16)
Night on close hit 4B (i38)
i24 SRSH -> SCH
Sieg 88_4[A]~8B+K~SCH K (-3 -> ix -> i11)
Night on block B+K~236~GS A (i38)
Sieg SSH [A]~8B+K~SCH B (+1 -> ix -> i18)
Night on block WL~K (i41)
i23 SRSH -> SSH
Sieg 4[A]~4B+K~SSH K (+5 -> ix -> i11)
Night on close hit 1A (i29)
i20 SRSH -> SRSH
Sieg 4[A]~6B+K~SRSH B (-3 -> ix -> i17)
Night on block 2B+K (i40)
Tested many times with different setups
START-UP OF NEUTRAL TO STANCEMOVES
i20 B+K~First input
i36 B+K~SBH K (x -> i16)
i43 B+K~SBH A (x -> i23)
i36 B+K~SBH K
Sieg A~B+K~SBH K (-2 -> ix)
Night on close block 4B (i38)
i43 B+K~SBH K
Sieg A~B+K~SBH A (+4 -> ix)
Night on close hit B+K~NSS A (i39)
i24 4B+K~First input
i35 4B+K~SSH K (x -> i11)
i42 4B+K~SSH A (x -> i18)
i35 4B+K~SSH K
Sieg 4A~4B+K~SSH K (-8 -> ix)
Night on block 236~GS A+B (i43)
i42 4B+K~SSH A
Sieg A~4B+K~SSH A (+4 -> ix)
Night on hit 4B (i38)
i21 6B+K~First input
i50 6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i29)
i38 6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i17)
i39 6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i18)
i50 6B+K~SRSH A+B
Sieg a+kA~6B+K~SRSH A+B (+10 -> ix)
Night on hit 2B+K (i40)
i38 6B+K~SRSH B
Sieg 4A~6B+K~SRSH B (+0 -> ix)
Night on hit 4B (i38)
Tested many times with different setups
i39 6B+K~SRSH K
Sieg 4A~6B+K~SRSH K (+0 -> ix)
Night on hit B+K~NSS A (i39)
i57 6B+K~6B+K~SRSH B
Sieg 4A~6B+K~6B+K~SRSH B (+0 -> ix)
Night on hit B+K~NSS 236~GS A+B (i57)
Strange enough, last transition seems to be like i19 instead of i20. (First one i21 and second is i19)
i25 8B+K~First input
i36 8B+K~SCH K (x -> i11)
i43 8B+K~SCH B (x -> i18)
i36 8B+K~SCH K
Sieg 6A~8B+K~SCH K (-1 -> ix)
Night on close hit 4B (i38)
Sieg agA~8B+K~SCH K (+2 -> ix)
Night on block 8B (i34)
Varies between i36 and i37.
I43 8B+K~SCH B
Sieg agA~8B+K~SCH B (+2 -> ix)
Night on block WL~K (i41)
START-UP OF MOVES IN NEUTRAL
i35 8B
Sieg B6~8B (+1 -> ix)
Night on close hit 8B (i34)
START-UP OF STANCEMOVES
i34 SBH B
Sieg ~SBH B (+0 -> ix)
Night on block 22B (i33), 22B beats SBH B
Night on block 8B (i34), trade almost impossible to get
i43 SCH {2}
Sieg a+k~SCH{2} (+17 -> ix)
Night on close hit 8A (i26)
BLOCKSTUNS
SCH k~SBH Block -4
Sieg SCH k~SBH K (x -> i16)
Night on block FC 3B (i20)
RESEARCH DATA
Framedata consist of frames and test-conditions in case you want to retake the test. Frames indicated how many frames are added in enemy's move in order to make characters clash or double hit so +16 DOESN'T mean free 1K. Framedata won't tell how far move leaves your opponent, so having tons of frames won't bring you happiness if you cannot use time advantage effectively.
First row contains advantage given and damage inflicted on grounded opponent (which is 70% from standing damage). Second and third row describes testing conditions. Other rows are just extra information. Due to possible errors, the real values might vary +-2 or so. Some curious observations are included in some moves.
THROWS:
A+G Hit +16
Sieg A+G~8B (x-> i35)
Sieg WR 4K (i19)
B+G Hit +16
Sieg B+G~8B (x -> i35)
Sieg WR 4K (i19)
FC A+G Hit +34
FC A+G~6B+K~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i57)
Night WS A (i23)
Free 33B Guaranteed near wall for 45 Dmg
FC A_B+G Lift up GHit +14, Dmg 0
FC A+G~8B (x -> i35)
Downed head first Night 2K (i21)
Another throw after lift won't connect and nothing is guaranteed. Not escapable on ground hit. Catch side-rolls and gives headlift if opponent is landed head first but in other cases only ground spin. Front-roll gives only ground spins and back-rolls probably avoids all.
FC A_B+G Ground spin GHit +0, Dmg 0
FC A+G~1K (x -> i15)
Downed leg first Night WS K (i15)
Not escapable on ground hit
1B Hit +5
1B~1A (x -> i27)
Night BT 2A (i21), Nightmare beats 1A
1B~6B (x -> i25)
Night BT 2A (i21), Sieg beats BT 2A. Therefore, it's atleast +5~+6
GROUND HITS:
1A GHit +8, Dmg 11
1A~1A (x -> i27)
Night WR BT 2K (i19)
Turns opponent to BT. Catches all roll directions, but miss opponent who is lying close Sieg.
1AA GHit +8, Dmg 18
1AA~6B (x -> i25)
Night FC A (i17)
6B crushes 2A meaning they hit at the same time. Try Night 2B (-8) on block followed by 2A against Sieg's 6B and observe clash. If first A connects, only back-tech is possible. Rollers get hit and techers re-KD. On close, wont' hit at all.
B GHit +22, Dmg 11
B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS B (i16)
Doesn't really catch side-rolls
~SBH GHit +30~31, Dmg 11
~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i26 -> i17)
Night WR 6K (i14), SRSH B beats 6K - advantage more than +29
~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night WR 8K (i23),8K beats SRSH A+B - advantage less than +32
Using SBH K as a tech-trap fails, because opponent must tech front to get hitted.
B2A GHit +14, Dmg 21
B2A~8B (i35)
Night BT 2A (i21)
If first B connects, A will tech-traps techs to Sieg's right. A can be escaped by teching backwards and it is blockable but it still hits grounded if they're not too close and catches side-rollers. Won't hit grounded if they lie too close.
B2[A] GHit +18, Dmg 28
B2[A]~8B (i35)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Charged A hits grounded if they're not too close and catches side-rollers.
BB GHit +11, Dmg 9
BB~1A (x -> i27)
Night WS B (i16)
Sideteching is possible after first B.
BBB GHit +9, Dmg 16
BBB~6B (x -> i25)
Night WS B (i16)
Sideteching is possible after first B.
BB~SCH GHit +22, Dmg 16
BB~SCH B{2} (x -> i43)
Night FC 3B (i20), FC 3B beats SCH B
Night FC 2B (i22), SCH B beats FC 2B, therefore +22
Side-teching is possible after first B.
2B~FC GHit +19, Dmg 12
2B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches rollers to Sieg's right side, but has a short range.
2~SBH GHit +25, Dmg 12
2~6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i26 -> i18)
Night FC 3B (i20), SRSH K beats FC 3B, advantage more then +24
2~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i26 -> i17)
Night WR 4K (i17), 4K beats SRSH B, advantage less than +26
3~SCH GHit +26, Dmg 12 or 19 (33B 14 or 21)
3~SCH {2} (x -> i43)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Catch rolls to Sieg's left. Lift opponent pretty far when hit grounded
7B GHit +18, Dmg 16
7B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night FC 3B (i20)
Note the difference between 7B and 8B. Doesn't catch side-rolls
8B GHit +23, Dmg 19
8B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS K (i15)
Doesn't catch side-roll
9B GHit +22, Dmg 22
9B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS B (i16)
Somehow trading WS K was impossible. Though +1 compared to 8B might sound small, it was pretty clear in tests.
B4 & B:4 GHit +27, Dmg 29 or 33 (B:4)
B4~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i50)
Night WS A (i23)
Catch rollers to Sieg's right, but might miss depending on range. Seems to be more reliable on close
22B GHit +5, Dmg 18
22B~6B (x -> i25)
Night FC 3B (i20)
Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's left side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
22~SSH GHit +25, Dmg 18
22~2B+K~SCH B (x -> i21 -> i18)
Night WR 6K (i14)
Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's left side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
33~SCH GHit +26, Dmg 14 or 21
33~SCH {2} (x -> i43)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Catch rolls to Sieg's left. Lift opponent pretty far when hit grounded
44B GHit +15, Dmg 26
44B~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WR 8K (i23)
Doesn't catch side-roll.
44~SBH GHit +38, Dmg 26
44~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Doesn't catch side-roll
44BB GHit +10, Dmg 21
44BB~1A (x -> i27)
Night WR 4K (i17)
44B~SBH GHit +19, Dmg 21
44B~SCH {2} (x- > i43)
Night WS A (i23), beats SCH
Night BT 2B (i25), lose to SCH
Therefore, around +19
66B~FC GHit +10~11, Dmg 29
66B~8B (i35)
Night WR 6B_FC 2B (i22)
Sometimes 8B lost to Night's 2B after shallow ground hit of 66B. On close, +11. Have no roll-catching abilities but fairly good tracking. Opponent must me on the roll to avoid hit. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
88B GHit +5, Dmg 18
88B~6B (x -> i25)
Night FC 3B (i20)
Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's right side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
88~SRSH GHit +28, Dmg 18
88~8B+K~SCH B (x -> i24 -> i18)
Night WR 6K (i14)
Seems like transitions into SSH or SRSH have same speed, unlike usual. Despite the small +3 difference, 22_88 are virtually same. Catches both side-rolling directions but covers Sieg's right side better. Usually sidehit, which gives 1 or 2 more damage
1K~FC GHit +16, Dmg 9
1K~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR BT 2K (i19)
On hit, turns opponent into grounded BT. Catch all roll-directions but has short range so easily escaped by rolling away from Sieg
2K GHit +8, Dmg 7
2K~B (x -> i24)
Night WS B (i16)
Doesn't catch side-roll
2KK GHit +6, Dmg 4
2KK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
2KKK GHit +6, Dmg 2
2KKK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
2KKKK GHit +6, Dmg 2
2KKKK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
2KKKKK GHit +6, Dmg 2 (Add up to 19 due to rounding)
2KKKKK~2B (x -> i23)
Night WR 4K (i17)
3KK GHit +11, Dmg 9
3KK~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR 8K (i23), 8K beats 8B
Night BT 2B (i25), 8B beats BT 2B, therefore advantage is +11
Catch all roll-directions but has short range
2A+B GHit +17, Dmg 23
2A+B~6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WR 6B (i22)
Doesn't catch side-roll
2[A+B]~SBH GHit +30~31, Dmg 23
2[A+B]~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i26 -> i17)
Night WR 6K (i14), SRSH B beats 6K - advantage more than +29
2[A+B]~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night WR 8K (i23), 8K beats SRSH A+B - advantage less than +32
Doesn't catch side-roll
66A+B GHit +6, Dmg 30
66A+B~FC 2B (i22)
Night WS B (i16)
Have slight ability to catch rollers to Sieg's right
a+kA:2A GHit +23, Dmg 12
a+kA:2A~6B+K~SRSH B (x -> i38)
Night WS K (i15
Hits only when opponent lying sideways and is not too close, but when they start rolling this hits normally. Catch all rolls, but it's a bit range-dependant. Second A avoidable by teching back. Depends lots on distance and it's not as reliable as 1AA. Damage is usually 2 more because of sidehit.
SBH A+B GHit +19, Dmg 29
SBH A+B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches rollers of Sieg's right. Covers left side too, but only if opponent is far away. May jump over grounded opponent.
SBH B GHit +19, Dmg 26
SBH B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WS B (i16)
SBH B will catch rolling to Sieg's right. On top of that, they will end up really close Sieg, which will benefit Sieg
SBH [K] GHit +15, Dmg 17-16-15 (add up to 49 because of rounding and second hit being 75%)
SBH [K]~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR BT A (i20)
No roll-catching, but leaves close on hit
SCH B GHit +17, Dmg 14
SCH B~6B+K ~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WR 6B (i22)
Catches rollers to Siegfried's left
SCH {1} GHit +23, Dmg 17
SCH B~6B+K ~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches rollers to Siegfried's left.
SCH {2} GHit +24, Dmg 24
SCH B~6B+K ~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night WS K (i15)
Catches rollers to Siegfried's left. The difference between SCH {1} and SCH {2} tested many times.
SCH kB GHit +6, Dmg 15
SCH kB~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR 4A (i29)
No roll-catching
SCH k~SCH GHit +19, Dmg 15
SCH k~6B+K~SRSH K (x -> i39)
Night FC 3B (i20)
No roll-catching
SSH A GHit +9, Dmg 14
SSH A~6B+K~SRSH B (i38)
Night WR 4A (i29)
Catch all roll directions
SSH [A]~SRSH GHit +9, Dmg 14
SSH [A]~SRSH A+B (x -> i29)
Sieg WR 4K (i19), 4K beats SRSH A+B
Night FC 3B (i20), SRSH A+B beats FC 3B, advantage around +9
SSH AA GHit +9, Dmg 25
SSH AA~1A (x -> i27)
Night FC 2A (i17), FC 2A beats 1A
Night FC 3B (i20), 1A beats FC 3B, advantage around +7~+9
SSH B GHit +18, Dmg 21 or 24 (shallow or deep hit)
SSH B~8B (x -> i35)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Hits rollers if they rolls to Sieg's left
SSH ~SBH GHit +33, Dmg 21 or 24
SSH ~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i26 -> i29)
Night FC 2B (i22)
Hits rollers if they rolls to Sieg's left
SRSH A+B~FC GHit +9, Dmg 33
SRSH A+B~6B (x -> i25)
Night WS B (i16)
Catches slightly rollers to Sieg's left. Better tracking while hunting rollers from far. Damage is usually 2 more because of sidehit.
BT BB GHit +14, Dmg 16
BT BB~8B (i35)
Night BT 2A (i21)
BT B doesn't have ground hit properties. BT BB catches rollers who try to roll Sieg's right.
BT 2K GHit +15, Dmg 8
BT 2K~8B (i35), used FC B+G and 44B~SBH A+BG as setups
Night FC 3B (i20)
Catches all side-rolls.
STUN HITS:
CH SBH K CHit +33
CH WS B~SCH k~SBH K~6B+K~SRSH A+B (x -> i50)
Night WR 4K (i17)
Also tested with plain CH SBH K and same results
MISCELLANEOUS:
WS ~SCH
Knocks back so much that SCH K won't connect except near wall or edge. Possible to ringout with SCH KK
SSH A+B
Hit grounded but advantage is useless since you spin away.
SRSH B
Has shallow hit for 18 damage and deep hit for 28 damage. No other difference found between hits.
RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS
This section's purpose is to sum up whole study. All results and conclusions are drawn from data section, only the most common knowledge is not found from there. Do not forget that conclusions reflects author's gaming style though it aims to be all-round information package for different kind of Siegfried-players.
GROUND-HITS ADVANTAGES:
Bread 'n' butter -moves highlighted. The stance-transition moves are most beneficial as expected. Surprisingly, none of moves were negative, which indicate that SC4's ground-game mechanics have unwent changes. Please notice that values are not 100% correct and should be study with care. Do not draw hasty conclusions.
Keep in mind that you'll usually end up with greater advantage than it's listed. Opponent must be quick to react fast and have timing to buffer his/her moves.
+0 Flapjack (Ground-spin)
+5 22B / 88B
+6 2KK-series / 66A+B / SCH kB
+8 1A_AA / 2K
+9 BBB / SSH A_[A]_AA / SRSH A+B
+10 44BB / 66B
+11 BB / 3KK
+14 B2A / BT BB / Flapjack (Lift Up)
+15 44B / SBH [K] / BT 2K
+16 1K
+17 2A+B / SCH B
+18 B2[A] / 7B / SSH B
+19 2B / 44B / SBH B / SBH A+B / SCH k
+22 B / BB / 9B
+23 8B / a+kA:2A / SCH {1}
+24 SCH {2}
+25 2 / 22
+26 3 / 33
+27 B:4 / B4
+28 88
+30 / 2[A+B]
+33 SSH
+38 44
GROUND-HITS DAMAGES:
This chart shows how much damage each move deals. Only 2KKKKK and SBH [K] are added as combo. S stands for shallow hit and D stands for deep hit. Plus-sign mean that move will usually cause sidehit on grounded opponent which will cause more damage.
0 Flapjack (Ground-spin) / Flapjack (Lift Up)
7 2K
8 BT 2K
9 BB / 1K / 3KK
11 1A / B
12 2B / 3B(s) / a+kA:2A(+)
14 33B(s) / SCH B / SSH A
15 SCH kB
16 BBB / 7B / BT BB
17 SCH {1}
18 1AA
19 3B(d) / 8B / 22B(+) / 88B(+) / 2K-series
21 B2A / 33B(d) / 44B / SSH B
22 9B
23 2A+B
24 SCH {2}
25 SSH AA
26 44B / SBH B
28 B2[A]
29 B4 / 66B(+) / SBH A+B
30 66A+B
33 B:4 / SRSH A+B(+)
49 SBH [K]
OKIZEME-RELATED ADVANTAGES:
CH SBH K was included because it's resemble ground-hit combo-ender. Throws are included because frames gives general idea of after-throw pressure
+5 1B
+16 A_B+G
+33 CH SBH K
+34 FC A+G
STANCE-TRANSITION SPEEDS:
Transition speeds indicate how much you must add to stance-move's start-up time. For example, it takes i38 to do SCH K from SBH. As you see, entering into SBH is fast but getting into SCH take longest time. SRSH and SSH are quite equal.
These data can be used to find out if you have uninterruptible stance-moves follow-ups. For example, after successful 22B ground-hit (+25), you have uninterruptible SRSH K (i19+i18) unless opponent has i12 mid or low.
When opponent realize that he/she can't get up without putting their head in lion's mouth, they prefer rolling. That's where anti-rolling tools comes into play.
From neutral to:
i19 SRSH
From SBH to:
i23 SSH
i26 SRSH
i27 SCH
From SCH to:
i20 SBH
i21 SRSH
i23 SSH
i27 SCH
From SSH to:
i16 SBH
i19 SRSH
i21 SCH
From SRSH to:
i19 SBH
i20 SRSH
i23 SSH
i24 SCH
In other words, getting into certain stance takes:
To SBH:
i16 from SSH
i19 from SRSH
i20 from SCH and from neutral
To SCH:
i19 from SSH
i24 from SRSH
i25 from neutral
i27 from SBH or another SCH
To SSH:
i23 from every stance
i24 from neutral
To SRSH:
i19 from SSH and from neutral
i20 from another SRSH
i21 from SCH
i26 from SBH
For uninterruptible SSH As you need around +30 from ground-hit. If you love SSH, know the right situations for maximum effect. Curiously, you get faster into SSH when switching from stance.
SRSH transitions are generally fast except from SBH. and 2[A+B] gives both +30 on ground-hit making your 6B+K~SRSH B (i26 + i17) very hard to interrupt. As SSH and 44 gives even more than +30, the only problem is to make opponent stand. Another almost-uninterruptible SRSH B (i21+i17) attempt is after 3 on ground-hit which yields +26. Note that SRSH-mixup is not guaranteed after B4.
ANTI-ROLLING MOVES:
All moves that have some kind of roll-catching ability listed below. By roll-catching I mean ability to catch left or right rolls. Some important moves picked up and listed in the end.
Moves that catch Sieg's left:
3B (Fast)
SCH Bs (Stancemove)
SSH B (Stancemove)
SRSH A+B (Stancemove)
Moves that catch Sieg's right:
B4 (Slow)
2B (Short range)
SBH B (Stancemove)
SBH A+B (Stancemove)
66A+B (Weak roll-catch)
BT BB (BT-move)
Moves that cover both sides:
22B (Left roll preferred)
88B (Right roll prefferd)
66B (Not a real roll-catcher, has nice tracking only)
1A (Long range only)
SSH As (Long range only)
a+kA:2A (Long range only, doesn't have normal ground hit)
B2A (Long range only)
BT K (Medium range, but BT-move)
1K (Short range, fast)
Flapjack (Short range)
3KK (Short range, nearly useless)
Recommended:
3B – For left side, great speed, good advantage
22_88B – Excellent covering both sides, great advantage
1K – For short range catching, great speed, decent advantage
a+kA:2A – For long range catching both sides, great advantage
COMBO-ENDERS AND TECH-TRAPS:
Besides of the most damaging combo-enders, 66B, 44K, 66A+B and SRSH A+B, Siegfried has somewhat wide selection of moves that gives good pressure after knockdown or combo. Depending on how much risk you are willing to take, the choices will shape your okizeme-style.
Generally, only SRSH B grants all okizeme-options, SBH B and SCH {2} allows ways for opponent to tech out of slowest slams and shorter stuns shut the most interesting moves out. Alternative for the ones mentioned before is B4 which gives nice damage but great advantage as well. For those who want to gamble there are 44, 22_88 or even 2[A+B] and if you can't make 44 to connect.
For deeper analysis, each situation must be studied separated. Not every characters were tested and some side-teching directions depends on character. Reliable only with Siegfried but data will give big picture. Keep in mind that every detail is observed though – none is made from my mind. In case of error test Siegfried or different range.
SRSH B
Easy to set up, the best combo-starter for Siegfried. Heavily punishable, so better make successful SRSH B worth it. Has two versions, shallow hit (18 damage) and deep hit (damage)
66B and 66A+B
Deals over 60 damage but leaves you with almost barely significant advantage. 66B and 66A+B put you in FC with tiny advantage which will limit you options effectively.
B4, B:4 and 1AA
1AA nets you 60 damage. Though it's is a tech-trap, it push opponent pretty far negating plus-frames. B4s give great advantage and +60 damage as well. Delay them a bit to set a tech-trap, which can be escaped to Sieg's left. Prefer these over 66B and 66A+B
44B
44B's follow-ups can grant you extra damage but punishment as well. 44B and SBH B will force them to stand up or tech, which allows SBH K to step in. In addition to this, you can enter into SRSH-stance, which has pure 50-50-mixup and possibility to smash lying opponent with SRSH A+B. Sadly enough, four out of these five options are punishable but damage will easily increase up to 80-100. In addition to every built-in traps, 44B itself works as a all-catching tech-trap.
22
Where as 88 is watered down version of 44, 22 opens even more stance-options. SSH has generally slow mix-up with not so devastating effects but it still has it's use. You won't be in big danger even if your follow-ups fails.
88 and 2[A+B]
2[A+B] is similar to 44, but you're no able to enter SRSH-stance without a chance getting interrupted. 88 place you straight into 50-50 mix-up but with no real threats to make opponent stand up. Therefore both of these are not recommended.
1B
Tech-traps every direction but you need to step once forward. Step to your left before 1B might help as well. On hit, +90 damage but have to be done very quick to cover every direction. Be sure to train this well before trying out in real fights because there's no award for missed 1B
B2A and
While allows you to enter SBH with same advantage as 2[A+B], you can tech-trap them with B2A giving opponent more pressure. If the lying opponents gives headache, smash them up with B2A (with slight delay it will hit after shallow SRSH B), SBH B or just 33B after plain B. To avoid all this, they must tech backwards or to your left, so enter into SRSH where you can freely mix-up without being interrupted. Don't you too often due to uncertainties.
Conclusions
B4s, 1AA, variations of 44Bs, 22 and sometimes B-variants. Avoid 66B and other sluggish moves since you have better moves available
SBH B
Though SBH B has highest damage output, you won't bump into it very often. Almost 100% guaranteed after late B+K GI. Because it is launcher, you can apply highs such as a
A as well.66B, 44K and 66A+B
Sluggish moves deals most damage again, this time scaling up to 72+. Using these kills your okizeme, in fact 44K putting you in disadvantage. 44K have slight front-RO properties but 3B or 3A do the same trick with easier timing.
B4 and B:4
B4s is not a100% tech-trap anymore. On close the fastest B4 is 100% guaranteed, others can be avoided by teching Sieg's left. From further every hit will land and even tech-trap every direction. Not spammable because of tricky timing, but gives great advantages on hit and +70 damage as well.
44B
Nothing special, +65 damage and a tech-trap if you have good timing. Otherwise the same old reliable 44B
a+kA:2AA and 1AA
First one has somewhat hard timing, but grants you +70 damage and cannot be escaped. 1AA won't work well, so this time, prefer a+kA:2AA. Push opponent pretty far though.
22_88
Because SBH B is launcher and follow-up will lift them again. Opponent cannot tech and therefore avoid SSH B or SRSH A+B unless they roll or stand-up which leaves them open to your nasty mix-ups. SSH A will catch all rolling directions but 88 has no real answers against rollers to Sieg's right. You can do plain 88B and 1K the rollers and have decent frames on close. In short, both are viable options to keep pressure on.
a
AWorth to mention: nice damage, decent wake-up, but insane when you wall-splat them for relaunch.
Conclusions
Different variations of 44Bs for daredevils. Sometimes B4, 22_88, a+kA:2AA and a
A's near walls. For ringouts just 3A or 44K. 66B, 66A+B and 44K if you want highest guaranteed damage.SCH {2}
Just like SBH B, this gives nice damage, but it's hard to pull this without being stepped, interrupted or GIed. Sidehit gives better damage and shuts out some tech possibilities.
66B and 66A+B
Both hits +70, but only 66B is reliable. 66A+B can be teched to Sieg's side depending on character but on side hit it will connect.
B4s
Tech-traps only Sieg's right, front and backward. Even sidehit won't change properties. 70 damage plus tech-trap and yields nice advantage.
44B
Techable to both sides on normal hit, but during sidehit will catch every direction. However watch out for close hit, because 44B might jump pass opponent. Damage is good, +65 and wake-up monstrous
3B, 3A and agA
For ringouts to front, just use this. Not tremendous pushback, but good enough to win by RO. Damage is +60 and they all give decent advantage. Near wall, a
A might splat but it's hard to pull. Forget 66A because it has the same damage but might miss on bad timing.22_88
Just like after SBH B, puts some pressure on opponent to stand up. After 88 they can avoid SRSH A+B by rolling to Sieg's right, but after 22 they cannot roll to any direction. Just condition them well with 1K after 88B and everything is fine.
2A+B
If hit, does +60 damage but SBH K won't tech-trap. However on sidehit SBH K will catch them all and it won't whiff like 44B does. Sadly some characters won't get hit at all by 2A+B.
1AA and a+kA:2AA
1AA has issues to hit close but when it connects it cannot be avoided or teched without getting even more punishment. Opponent can tech a+kA2:AA into normal hit making second A useless. Use 1AA to keep them grounded and apply your more devastating and advantageous moves,
Conclusions
SCH {2} leaves you few options because almost every move can be teched to your left. Condition them with 1AA and 66B and confuse them with 44Bs and B4s. Spice up their lives with 22_88 to mess them even more.
B4 and B:4
Slow and rare-to-hit but good to know how to handle this one. B:4 kills some tech-options which make it better not only damage-wise.
33B
Easy way to score +60. No escape, unless you delay to try tech-catching. Decent advantage.
1B
Tech-traps every direction but if opponent is too far, they can escape to your right. However after B:4, this will catch right tech from a bit further. On hit, +105 damage which definitely encourage opponent to lie down. On hit, almost no advantage but it's worth it.
22_88
Another fast move that cannot be rolled easily. It's not blockable but opponent can avoid these by teching. Sometimes they catch techers but it's very very unreliable. After B:4 these catch techers of side they are designed to hit.
B4s and 44Bs
Easily avoidable. Not recommended unless you want to encourage them to tech or roll.
Conclusions
33B is guaranteed, easy and damaging, but to aim higher you have to apply 1B and 22_88. Sometimes mix some B4s and 44Bs.
The rest
Apply 33B and 1Ks. They're fastest viable ground-hitting options since A+B have habit to mess things up. Encourage opponent to play dead if you want to hit some slower slams on them.
MOVES FROM NEUTRAL – OKIZEME APPLICATIONS:
Throws
Solid +16 situation. Both throws leave opponent to the same distance, but B+G set them head first (notable if you want lift them up with flapjacks).
Flapjacks
Gives delicious advantage after successful throw, but put you out of 3B range. Waste of momentum if done against downed opponent. No damage, no real advantage just a spin or in the best case, +14 frames by lifting them up. Sometimes might be useful to stop rollers, ie. after B+G. Best if you catch them standing, since head lift won't guarantee you throw-mid -mixup. Nice way to waste time if you aim for a time out victory.
1A-series
Good anti-rolling tool. Once you hit, they have hard time to avoid second swing. Somewhat unsafe, has problems to hit point-blank downed and pushes opponent away on hits melting down small advantage. Good combo-enders but poorly rewarding on roll-catching.
B-series
The most handy ones are (+30 frames), B (+22) and B2A (+14). By mixing these 3, you can pressure downed foe, but use sparingly. Bs doesn't have side-roll catching properties, which limit its use quite even more. From you have almost uninterruptible SRSH-mixup – transition takes 26 frames.
1B
Not that useful tech-trap anymore. It still has nice applications and good trapping when used point-blank. On connected hit mild advantage.
2Bs
2 (+25 frames) is not as advantageous as but it's faster and has small roll-catch to your right. Watch out for short range. Plain 2B (+19) is usable too. Because Bs and 2Bs won't do much damage, they rarely are worthy of being combo-enders. Throwing them out now and then in wake-ups won't hurt you though.
3 and 33
Fast, average damage and decent frames (+26) on paper. Bread'n'butter okizeme-tools, nice against rollers to your left side. Always aim for 33-version to get more damage. Troublesome if they managed to block this, but not catastrophic. Remember that you'll push foe quite far and you're put into SCH which sucks at wake-ups. Try get into SRSH where your SRSH B and K are hard to stop.
7_8_9B
Mediocre speed, damage and advantage (+22~+23). Sounds ridiculous to pull this on wake-ups, but has many assets: after many moves you can pressure them with 9B because of its long range. Even if you got blocked, they're put in FC and with only mild advantage. On hit, you won't get anything guaranteed but you will keep them close and yourself in normal state. In comparison with 6B, this is safer and more reliable way to continue your game after throw or mid-range knowdown. For fast solution, prefer 33. Watch out for side-rollers, although this can beat them sometimes
B4 and B:4
Powerful but slow downward slam. Though this have small roll-catching, use this as a combo-ender since it gives great frames (+27) which is the best neutral advantage available.
22 and 88
These brothers can launch on successful tech-trap, but finding good setups might be hard because usually they could be replaced with even better combo-ender, like 44B. 22_88's main use is roll-catching which they do more than well: good cover, good damage and great advantage. Suffers little from range and not-so-fast start-up.
44B-series
Well-telegraphed and therefore useless in situations where is not guaranteed. Monster on ground-hit, allows many dangerous but also risky follow-ups without chance to be interrupted. Use as much as you are ready to take risks. On block, you can make your way out of danger
66B
For high base or gauge damage, use this. For roll-catching, further okizeme or safeness, avoid this. Tracks fairly well but cannot hit rolling foe. I won't recommended this at any situation.
1K
Fastest ground-hitting move with small range, weak damage and decent advantage. Best used to cover both rolling sides, but if there's other options, forget this. Make sure to hit grounded one, because otherwise you will lose momentum.
2K-series
Showy and annoying stomps, put +2 to opponent's anger-meter and yields you from +6~+8 advantage on close. Tends to hit even better than in SC3 and gives somewhat decent damage but not preferable as a combo-ender or roll-catcher. Practically just a parlor-trick
3KK
First K will reveal your intentions leaving you in great danger. Same as 1K but slower and less advantageous. In case that you manage to connect this on grounded opponent, keep up pressuring, the momentum is still there.
2A+B
Slow low with quite a long range. Has problems to hit enemy grounded on close. Great advantage on hit especially when ending up into SBH, but not enough to make it as monstrous as 44B. Too linear to applied as roll-catcher but might have some use to catch long-distance back-rollers. Use SBH B to make them stand and mix them down with SRSH-mixup.
66A+B
Same as 66B but a tid bit safer and damaging. However no roll-catching or tracking and even worse advantage (not negative though). Built-in TJ might avoid 2As or lows, but practically useless.
a+kA2:A
1A-look-a-like, but with problematic ground-hit: when opponent lies still won't hit (unless they're lying sideways)! Once they roll, this slash catch them with great advantage (+20) and decent damage. Covers both sides well and usable as a combo-ender after SBH B. On block somewhat unsafe, but gorgeous on standing hit – be sure to use this.
BT BB
First B doesn't hit grounded and while second does, opponent might have caught your idea. Hard to set up, but decent reward on hit. Small roll-catching abilities, but rather unsafe. Make sure to hit grounded, on hit against standing opponent leaves you -7.
BT 2K
Good frames on hit, whether on standing opponent or not. Very unsafe so don't be too careless. Catch nicely rollers but has limited range.
STANCE COMPARISON AND ANALYSIS:
Siegfried's stance-game is vital but in the same time quite inadequate in wake-ups. This next section breaks down whole stance-game into separate stances.
SBH
The biggest drawback in this stance is its speed. Even the damage-output won't compensate as your fastest ground-hitting option is SBH B. Luckily you have SBH K, a fast tech-trap, but you'll end up in bad situation if it only pushes air or smashes against block. Base Hold is still excellent after 44 and somewhat fine after and 2[A+B]. Ground-hitters are safe enough but only SBH A+B covers both side-rolling directions. Advantage is mediocre
Pros: Damage, safeness, advantage on hit
Cons: Slow, somewhat weak to rolls
SCH
Chief Hold suffers most of the lack of pressure tools. With two highs and mids, you're left without lows. The mids would be well enough if they leads in to good advantage or damage but rewards on hit are poor. In addition to that, opponent can roll to theirs heart content and you have no real ways to force them up. In short, SCH has the safest and fastest moves, but lacks okizeme capacity.
Pros: Safeness, advantage on hit
Cons: No lows, only two mids, totally vulnerable to rollers moving to Sieg's right
SRSH
On standing state, SRSH is most offensive stance thanks to its 50-50-mix-up, but like in SCH, you're no able to force opponent to take it if they know to tech and roll to your right. In addition to this, SRSH A+B is quite slow and the 50-50 is quite unsafe.
Pros: Powerful mix-up, fast and damaging against standing opponent, built-in forward dash
Cons: Unsafe, only one slow ground-hitter, weak against rolls to your right, weak advantage on hit
SSH
This stance has the best options to force opponent to stand and block. SSH A is fast, covers things quite well and has option to SRSH. Along with that, SSH B and SSH A+B are good alternatives. All SSH-moves are somewhat safe and fast but they won't make Siegfried top-tier. On ground hit, advantages varies from mediocre to great. Too bad Siegfried lacks ground-hitting moves to end up in SSH
Pros: Covers rollers, ground-hitting lows, fast, somewhat safe
Cons: Built-in backstep, limited ways to get into this stance
Lastly, to keep up momentum you have to be highly creative. Many times it just won't be enough. Canceling into standing state or FC might be good to keep your stance okizeme effective, because there's no things to abuse mindlessly. Being more in SSH helps, but transitions tends to draw you away from opponent. Just make sure to have enough advantage, short distance and/or well-conditioned victim.
LAST THOUGHTS AND CREDIT
I hope that this gives new insights into Siegfried gameplay, since I wasted more like 30 hours on this. The study won't probably change your style, but it definitely gave me some fresh ideas to approach knockdows. It also clarified some rumours about not-so-well-known moves. Happy hunting
Thanks Sacharja and Twisted Jester for framedata.
