Strategy/Playstyle Discussion + general Q&A

There's more than one way to make a guy crouch with NM - ag:A. You talk about apps good step? Kill it. Use it enough and he will have to duck. You have better low pokes than App, use them. See how he handles 1A_[A] at mid range. NM loses a strong tool in throws but the way people here are going on - you'd think it was unwinnable. I think the NM players who find him difficult are overly dependent on throws - there's more than one way to play NM. He has great whiff causing tools himself - play him at his own game maybe.
I don't even play NM well but if I did, I'd take this opportunity to learn NM a completely different way - who knows? What annoys me is nobody seems to think that way - it's all 'this is too good' 'NM can't do this and that' and on a strategy board - that's annoying. It's an even matchup really but it takes NM out of his comfort zone - that's not the end of the world guys!
 
Synraii said:
There's more than one way to make a guy crouch with NM - ag:A. You talk about apps good step? Kill it. Use it enough and he will have to duck. You have better low pokes than App, use them. See how he handles 1A_[A] at mid range. NM loses a strong tool in throws but the way people here are going on - you'd think it was unwinnable. I think the NM players who find him difficult are overly dependent on throws - there's more than one way to play NM. He has great whiff causing tools himself - play him at his own game maybe.
I don't even play NM well but if I did, I'd take this opportunity to learn NM a completely different way - who knows? What annoys me is nobody seems to think that way - it's all 'this is too good' 'NM can't do this and that' and on a strategy board - that's annoying. It's an even matchup really but it takes NM out of his comfort zone - that's not the end of the world guys!
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Ill respond to this another time. Some problems with your argument here.
 
Arguing that in a strategy thread I would sooner see things you can and should do, rather than this doesn't work over and over is a poor argument?
 
Synraii said:
Arguing that in a strategy thread I would sooner see things you can and should do, rather than this doesn't work over and over is a poor argument?
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I think he means the arguments you have for NM vs Apprentice tactics, but I will not put words in anyone's mouth...
Regardless, I think that Engared has more weight (than me, anyway) for Nightmare strategies. But Syny, you have some great topics to discuss in your above post, and I'd like to repost them in a question format to see what experienced Nightmare players have to offer. If you have other issues you feel are being overlooked in the strategy discussion, please go ahead and continue the list, because they are exemplary discussion points (at least in the eyes of someone who doesn't know NM well, like me).

1. ag:A - Does this attack produce results, and how often should it be used in a match against App?
2. NM's Low Pokes: 1K, 11B, etc... What pokes are useful, and when is the best time to use them against Apprentice?
3. Throws: App's Force-grab-break is a chore to deal with. Should we apply close-range pressure with throw mixups when Apprentice is low on Force gauge only, or are there other times?
4. NM's whiff tools: I have no idea what these tools might be, besides B+K NSS backstep (which I abuse when I play NM).
 
Well I did say I don't play NM - so I don't expect what I suggested to be right, I was just brainstorming ideas...
However, as a Siegfried player, if throws aren't cutting it I will ag:A my opponent every time they don't duck - if they are stubborn this can be 3/4 times every 5-10 seconds. Spam it then 3B them when they duck - that's what I'd do.
Though I feel with the apprentice, you still have to throw now and again for two reasons:
To keep the apprentice player on his toes and to ensure he is conservative with his force - which caps his damage a little bit & limits the number of power waves and force blasts significantly as he or she will be concious to save force for breaks - especially against a character like NM. In this matchup I would only use throws to say to my opponent 'hey, I've still got a great throw game - keep breaking'.
In this matchup there is a balance to be found between throws and ag:A BUT NM is a throw/mid type because he requires your opponent to twitchduck to kill them. Throws won't do that vs. Apprentice, so your best tool aside from throws is ag:A. The reward is smaller for equal risk, but I know I don't like blocking ag:A, neither should your opponent.
Again, just speculation - I know Siegs ag:A gets more love due to his keepout game, but I'd imagine it crosses over here.
 
I like this thread, there need to be more threads like these on F.G. sites. Too many times "character" threads devolve into "OMFG DMGING KAWMBOS" threads; or, in S.F. 4 "how scaled can I get my combo" video threads (pointless really, damage> number of hits). This would especially benefit Marvel 3, I don't know of any strategy threads, just combo and team threads. It's annoying.

A little advice though, your wiki doesn't have any strategy in it, at least not for Nightmare. It's basically just art and bios, a little disappointing to someone trying to learn the deeper strategy of a 3d fighter like this.

I have a bit of a question... Does this game have a lot of poking? I know N.M. would have to because he's slow. And if so, what are some of the moves I should know about? Keep in mind I do read the front page.

Bad/good matchups? I know from previous experience he has trouble vs quicker guys if they get in, but he has a huge sword to homerun them out- which is pretty funny to me. "whoops, sorry Talim, you missed! BAM! *ringout combo begins*

Also, footsies.. Do 3d fighters even screw with this? Like say I would use x char, knowing his b was slow; and punishable by x move, would venture just out of x move's range and press it,n then opponent's x move whiffs, launcher> combo. That type of strategy used much? A lot of times 3d fighters just look so random to me, like each guy is trying pressure and if there so happens to be a move that punishes the oppoent's move then you use it AND THEN once you have momentum you can start messing with them. I know that these types of games don't have a lot of long range so you see a lot of dancing to compensate (wavedashing, dash dancing, whatever, just going in and out of range like 3rd strike really), so I kind of get that. Mindgames in this genre (3df) though are hard for me to see.

Any links to other sites that are helpful? For example, if I were looking up Super Turbo I'd hit the shoryuken wiki, youtube, sonic hurricane, and super-turbo.net.
 
Every time I smoke I come up with a couple ideas that would be good for SC.. For nightmare there needs to be more control when using A+B.. How cool is it to just explode and your opponent flies away?

A+B = the same as now, not safe
[A+B] 2 second hold = not safe, more knockback
[A+B] 2.5 second hold = JF cancel
[A+B] 3 second hold = unblockable

This could become one of NM's staple moves and could be a lot of fun, admittedly it would need lots of testing to be fair though :P

I have a bit of a question... Does this game have a lot of poking? I know N.M. would have to because he's slow. And if so, what are some of the moves I should know about? Keep in mind I do read the front page.
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Sorry didn't mean to ignore you. NM 6B and 11B are good wakeup(when opponent is laying down) pokes. His A+B will deflect light attacks, but it's a guessing game when you use the move. Everything about NM is risk = reward, and like you mentioned already, his ringout game is very good and usually will yield atleast 1 win. When people become more concerned about their location in the ring is when NM will punish with high and low grapples OR his powerful Mids.. such good Mids..

Get good at canceling UB moves 4A+B, 2[K] because these will loosen up your opponents guard... get to know all his attack properties.
3B is sexy because CHs will set up.. try stepping 8 or 2 once, and then use 3B. This will sometimes cause an opponent to drop guard or crouch
a [ B ]K catches a lot of people off guard because the timing of K is slightly off what anyone would expect.
11K will crouch Highs and hit Mid but can be stepped.
 
Synraii said:
Well I did say I don't play NM - so I don't expect what I suggested to be right, I was just brainstorming ideas...
However, as a Siegfried player, if throws aren't cutting it I will ag:A my opponent every time they don't duck - if they are stubborn this can be 3/4 times every 5-10 seconds. Spam it then 3B them when they duck - that's what I'd do.
Though I feel with the apprentice, you still have to throw now and again for two reasons:
To keep the apprentice player on his toes and to ensure he is conservative with his force - which caps his damage a little bit & limits the number of power waves and force blasts significantly as he or she will be concious to save force for breaks - especially against a character like NM. In this matchup I would only use throws to say to my opponent 'hey, I've still got a great throw game - keep breaking'.
In this matchup there is a balance to be found between throws and ag:A BUT NM is a throw/mid type because he requires your opponent to twitchduck to kill them. Throws won't do that vs. Apprentice, so your best tool aside from throws is ag:A. The reward is smaller for equal risk, but I know I don't like blocking ag:A, neither should your opponent.
Again, just speculation - I know Siegs ag:A gets more love due to his keepout game, but I'd imagine it crosses over here.
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They're is no A:G:A/ mid mixups for NM, it's throw/mid mixups.

I already talked about what you have to do in this matchup, throws are a must...since they give you a favorable mixup situations while draining force meter. Aga is simply a tool to track his step G and detract him from sidestepping carelessly. You shouldn't expect to land any Agas, what you're locking for is the advantage on block for mixups.

A NM player that sides steps in this match-up also stands to gain a lot from whiff punishment. GS A to catch him slippin, and NSS options to whiff punish.

There is nothing to this match up really.
 
6B is an absolutely abysmal move to use on wake up imo. Only if they decide to attack on wake up after an A+G will it do any good, but if they decide to stay down, you're at -28, or if they get up and block it, you're still royally boned at -28.

NM's best pokes are 11k, 1k, 4K, 66k, 9k, 11B.......essentially his pokes are Safemare. Like Spider said though, he's a major risk=rewards character. You have to take a ton of risks to have the character pay off, the key is to know WHEN to take those risks so it doesn't back fire on you and you get stomped for hurling out a 4B after a 6BB or something silly like that.

Get good at his ring out game and learn his wall combos, this is where he excels. Either wall stage or ring out stage, Nightmare is a force to be reckoned with in the right hands.

Taylor, this game has more footsies than any other game imo. It takes TONS of practice to get good at the footsies game. Even then there's always someone better. Nightmare has one of THE best side steps in the game, its the chicken feet. And each character has their good and bad match ups, NM in particular is even with most characters except the high/god tiered characters. They aren't unstoppable, they just have better tools at their disposal.

And 8wr is the absolute best SC source there is out there. Unless you can read french or german.
 
MammothMan said:
6B is an absolutely abysmal move to use on wake up imo. Only if they decide to attack on wake up after an A+G will it do any good, but if they decide to stay down, you're at -28, or if they get up and block it, you're still royally boned at -28.
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Actually I've had some good runs with it. Most people will wake up into standing guard, but not if you train them to start guarding against 11B. This comes in handy in round 3 and later for good chip damage or a ring out on JF
 
Yea, but if you train them to block low using 11B like that, it'd be better to hit them with 3B. The short bounce launch can give an opportunity for a combo, wall smash, or ring out. Plus, if they block it on reaction (As they could with 6B), you'll only be at -14, rather than -28.
 
MammothMan said:
Yea, but if you train them to block low using 11B like that, it'd be better to hit them with 3B. The short bounce launch can give an opportunity for a combo, wall smash, or ring out. Plus, if they block it on reaction (As they could with 6B), you'll only be at -14, rather than -28.
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3B is shorter range than 6B :)
 
Yes. Though this is all theory fighting more than anything. In my experience I've learned that 3B is far superior in situations like that. If 6B works for you, go for it.
 
I dont see why its so hard to fight with NM O.o There are very few times when Ive actually felt I couldnt win a fight against someone due to tier rank. And even then Id try to use their strength against them by letting them whif/get impacted. Im not sure if this is more related to offline and the "frame game" but if you get experienced with NM it isnt hard to put up a solid fight without lows, unblockables, grabs, ROs, or CFs.
 
The only time i find 6B:B is useful is when you are trying to whiff punish from extreme range, any punish is better than no punish.
 
This is just for a reference of GSA(CH) -> agA combo.
See it in (00:15). Finally, it is caught on tape. Sorry for my annoying accent. XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Pjeq-698M

IMO,
GSA(CH)(MAX) -> iagA is better than aB combo in most situtation.
** You can do it by reaction of seeing a maxium range (The range of 4KK can't reach.) Also it is good to use it (agA or 6K or 6A) against to heavy characters such as Nightmare, Astaroth, Rock, Lizardman and Siegfried to avoid the failure of 4KK follow ups in mid range.

A fail attempt. See it in 2:35. XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c90nLcSObhE
 
The reason why i never use anything bar throws or CH 4KK from CH GS A is due to the huge risk if you whiff the input on aB or Aga.You miss the input and you miss out on 44+ (?) guaranteed damage for slightly more damage.

Another way to look at this is you get +18 frames from CH GS A so you technically can do a 3B/33B/Throw mixup. However, I don't think its advisable since you get wakeup/stay down options from CH 4KK which can lead to mindgames and more damage.
 
Engared, I think this combo is practical and not flashy. iagA can have a big damage wall combo and RO. iagA(i14), agA(i15) and agA(i16) all work in max range. Only iagA(i14) can work in tip range. It is not as hard as you think.
I agree that it is very unsafe after a fault input in that range if opponent is Setsuka, Sophitia and Raphael.
See it in 2:35.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c90nLcSObhE

Actually, I only do it when I feel 4KK doesn't reach, so there is no conflict and relation to 4KK. IMO, it is a free damage and not hard to get. Take it.

mmm...... To be honest, I think 3B_33B_Throw is not a true mix-up in CRT or low-lag LCD. Just opinion.
However, I agree GSA(CH)(Max) -> any mix-ups is good too. I do it sometimes when I feel 4KK doesn't work (on some heavy characters) and no confidence to do a free agA.
 
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