Strategy/Playstyle Discussion + general Q&A

Random tidbit that people might already know about: NM/Sieg's flapjack throws can't be broken with Apprentice's auto-throw break. Since RTD's Apprentice won CEO, this might be good to keep in mind if other Apprentices start showing up.
 
Haha, I figured that out AFTER the tournament. Actually, the night before the finals.

In casuals after the finals, I actually managed to beat RTD a few times. It sucks, I might've been able to make it to the finals if I had just known before hand.
 
DeathInMyEyes said:
Haha, I figured that out AFTER the tournament. Actually, the night before the finals.

In casuals after the finals, I actually managed to beat RTD a few times. It sucks, I might've been able to make it to the finals if I had just known before hand.
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Im going to invent a Soul Crush NM which will destroy Apprentices. I think the matchup might be in NM's favor though. Replace throws with flapjack as the mixup lol. RTD is inhuman so i dont count him.
 
We employ the French ban anyway in the UK ^^
The apprentice is a weird matchup for NM and Sieg, I'd say it's a 5:5 for each TBH.
Why do you think NM has the edge? I'm not a NM expert so I'd like to hear your reasons.
 
You're approaching the match-up wrong, every chance you get throw him...flapjack or not. What is he going to do 2A you after force break. A+B exists for a reason. The match-up is 5:5.
 
Honestly, I think Nightmare has a better chance against the Apprentice then most other characters.

Mainly because he can actually force the Apprentice to duck and/or start taking the 50/50 on breaking throws.

KingAce said:
You're approaching the match-up wrong, every chance you get throw him...flapjack or not. What is he going to do 2A you after force break. A+B exists for a reason. The match-up is 5:5.
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I tried grab spamming him. I thought the same thing you did: if I could run his meter out, he can't do shit. I was wrong. The fact of the matter is, RTD doesn't really use his meter outside of combos, and by the time he GETS a combo, his meter is full again because the Apprentice recovers half is force gauge with every B hit, so it seems.

Still, grabbing him to force him into a mixup is a really good idea.

And A+B is extremely valuable in the matchup. I used it, and it worked like a charm. It killed his post-force break B's and 2A's. He only got the chance to block 1 or 2, I made sure of that
 
Synraii said:
We employ the French ban anyway in the UK ^^
The apprentice is a weird matchup for NM and Sieg, I'd say it's a 5:5 for each TBH.
Why do you think NM has the edge? I'm not a NM expert so I'd like to hear your reasons.
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I'm not sure about Siegfried. He has flapjacks, so it might still be a 5:5.

But the matchup is definitely a 5:5 or better for Nightmare. I can post the strategy I used against RTD, if you want.
 
I think CEO proved something this year:
Choice of character does not determine results.
Voldo is arguably the strongest tournament legal character in SCIV.
I say arguably to avoid dispute - he's top tier regardless.
Did Enkindu win CEO? No.
Did RTD win with Lower-mid Tier Apprentice? Yes.
What RTD proved is that when all is said and done, the best player on the day will always win. Omega has shown this with Zas, just as Keev did with Nightmare.
I acknowledge Sophitia has a phenomenal advantage over Siegfried - do I pick a secondary against Sophie? No.
I hope people will get less hung up on tier's from this experience - player ability/performance > Choice of character. Character choice can compliment ability, but if you get completely outplayed, you will lose.
 
You don't grab him to drain meter. You grab him to force mixups. In fact the mixup is in your favor because of A+B, 9K and throws to catch his step.
App players usually develop a very bad habit of using 2A or BB after force break. You can exploit that.
 
Synraii said:
I think CEO proved something this year:
Choice of character does not determine results.
Voldo is arguably the strongest tournament legal character in SCIV.
I say arguably to avoid dispute - he's top tier regardless.
Did Enkindu win CEO? No.
Did RTD win with Lower-mid Tier Apprentice? Yes.
What RTD proved is that when all is said and done, the best player on the day will always win. Omega has shown this with Zas, just as Keev did with Nightmare.
I acknowledge Sophitia has a phenomenal advantage over Siegfried - do I pick a secondary against Sophie? No.
I hope people will get less hung up on tier's from this experience - player ability/performance > Choice of character. Character choice can compliment ability, but if you get completely outplayed, you will lose.
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You're right to a degree. RTD's skill speaks for it's self.
The reason App is low mid, is because he's very unsafe, and his lows leave a lot to be desired.

However, App's step plus he's combo damage is retarded.This plays to RTD's strength, in fact the playstyle he used with hilde fits App pretty exact.
So since people don't know how to play against App effectively and they don't know how to fight against a strong turtler like RTD, he made it look easy.
 
Then I don't see why people are only just working through the apprentice now - if you're going to allow entry of a certain character, then lack experience against them - you are going to get annhilated. If one was inexperienced against Mitsurugi then got destroyed on wakeup, its their own fault, you could argue his oki is just retarded - he's not broken though.
Lack of knowledge is the biggest handicap you can take into tournament play.
If I was to focus train against the apprentice with Sieg - I'd use a lot more of iag:A, 3A and stances at range - forcing him to waste meter ripping me out of them with A+B and to shut down his movement. You just have to have enough give in your strategy to adapt to any character strategy. That's the differance between a good and a great player...
Not that I'm a great player, I have no doubt RTD would 10-0 me, but I'd spend my time learning from him about my own flaws. :/
 
Synraii said:
Then I don't see why people are only just working through the apprentice now - if you're going to allow entry of a certain character, then lack experience against them - you are going to get annhilated. If one was inexperienced against Mitsurugi then got destroyed on wakeup, its their own fault, you could argue his oki is just retarded - he's not broken though.
Lack of knowledge is the biggest handicap you can take into tournament play.
If I was to focus train against the apprentice with Sieg - I'd use a lot more of iag:A, 3A and stances at range - forcing him to waste meter ripping me out of them with A+B and to shut down his movement. You just have to have enough give in your strategy to adapt to any character strategy. That's the differance between a good and a great player...
Not that I'm a great player, I have no doubt RTD would 10-0 me, but I'd spend my time learning from him about my own flaws. :/
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Theoretical knowledge is one thing, actual experience is another. RTD invented a style of apprentice which no one has fought before. Most Apprentices would play to a large extent unsafe and as such allowed their opponents to exploit Apprentices inherent weaknesses.
 
So you're saying he beat all these top players purely because he played safe? That's kind of embarrassing don't you think, it's like getting knocked out by safefried - sure it works for a little bit, you'll still get trashed though... :/
 
Synraii said:
So you're saying he beat all these top players purely because he played safe? That's kind of embarrassing don't you think, it's like getting knocked out by safefried - sure it works for a little bit, you'll still get trashed though... :/
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It's not embarrassing... Playing safe is smart with Apprentice. There is an App player here, who plays a reckless aggressive game. He also seems to have been playing for a while (I have no way to confirm this right now). He beats most other local players who play casuals/tourneys (i.e. everyone but Crim and Enkindu), because they get intimidated. But I beat him with my Yun a lot, simply because of his playstyle.

I would be embarrassed if I got beat by an aggressive, unsafe App.
 
No - you misunderstand me:
What I meant is that the implication is that if a player played to cover his characters weaknesses, then nobody can adapt to it. Take Engared, he plays a safemare... Sort of XD
Do people adapt to his style? Yes.
That's all I was taking issue with :/
 
Synraii said:
No - you misunderstand me:
What I meant is that the implication is that if a player played to cover his characters weaknesses, then nobody can adapt to it. Take Engared, he plays a safemare... Sort of XD
Do people adapt to his style? Yes.
That's all I was taking issue with :/
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But appren is different. Playing Safemare makes me vulnerable to low/mid mixups or mid/throw mixups.And because of this, it makes it hard for me to keep up with the damage which some characters can put out.

With apprentice, he basically is immune to mid/throw mixups so it greatly reduces the amount of potential damage his opponent can deal to him.

Then with his God-like step, whiff punishment and spacing, RTD is able to just grind down anyone.
 
Why is everybody so hung on the apprentice? I swear if somebody won a major with Talim everybody would start moaning about her. Regardless of what is said here, the apprentice is nowhere near as tough as kilik, Sophie, Amy, voldo sets or Ivy.
RTD used to play Hilde so of course he'd be a heavy whiff punisher.
What people should be doing is congratulating RTD on winning a major - particularly with a character like app, instead of bitching about his character.
It just annoys me y'know? I'd bet that if a Yoshi player started winning majors everyone would call him broken ~_~.
 
RTD won because he was the best player on the day, has great fundamentals and he proved he doesn't need Hilde to compete at high level. That should be grounds to be impressed, not to star bitching...
 
Synraii said:
RTD won because he was the best player on the day, has great fundamentals and he proved he doesn't need Hilde to compete at high level. That should be grounds to be impressed, not to star bitching...
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I don't really understand why you're getting so upset... RTD won because he was the best player of the day, yes. But DIME, Engared, and NM players in general are trying to answer a few questions.

1. Why was RTD the best player of the day? Skill? Character knowledge? Or the way he plays Apprentice?
2. How does he play Apprentice? What are his strengths, and what are possible weaknesses?
3. Most importantly, how do you improve your game against this type of player with Nightmare?

I'm all for giving credit where it's due, but this is the Nightmare forum, not the RTD forum. That, and people don't always go by tier lists. I rank Apprentice just below Vader and Mitsu, personally.
 
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