Summary and Final Review for Z.W.E.I. in SC5

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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
With SC6 upon us in 2018 we come to our last period with SC5 and the idea of this thread was to summarise what we learned about ZWEI, aswell as give my opinion of him as a character and how he faired against each of the cast.

Hoping this post serves as a useful archive for anyone wanting to look back at SC5 and how ZWEI was played.

-Brief introduction of myself-

So who am I? Why take anything I say as true for this character?

Well I'm Andyroo, a UK ZWEI player that has been playing competitive SC since 2012. I have attended 3 offline tournaments all 3 were the UK Edge Master Series in London (with 2015 being my best run if interested here in my review of how that went - https://8wayrun.com/threads/z-w-e-i-general-discussion-q-a.8814/page-30). My most notable opponents that during this game I play/have played include - Maxou, GOLD Shad, Noobicyde, Keev, Skyzo, WolfLoneThe, HolyCarp, SsyluS, Hyrul Joel and Zanaken. I've studied ZWEI throughout SC5 entire lifespan to try to optimise how to use him to win.

-Character Overview-

I'm not going to try be that guy trying to say that ZWEI was a good character competitively, he wasn't, not compared to top tier characters or even your mid tier characters. Regarded as bottom 3 in SC5 he saw very little play across competitive tournaments. The main events that would feature him was me at EMS, Zane at NEC and Toilet back in 2012 when the game was still new. Players would use ZWEI if they liked him and/or if they just wanted to give themselves the challenge.

What exactly are his flaws that made him not your standard soild character pick?

- Often unsafe on his attacks.
-Almost all of his strings and set ups have a way around to counter.
-No actual low outside of 2K.
-Poor throw range doesn't do him any favours.
-His main moves such as B+K, 66B, A+B, 66A+B and WRB are on slow side.
-Weak block punishment.
- His stepkill is not good having slow and or unsafe highs to work with.
-Lack of multi covering options.
- Whiffing issues can occur randomly near ring edge with 1K BE.

From looking at this if you are a player that looks for a character that is fast, has good punishment and exceptional 50/50 mix ups then at this point alot of players will look elsewhere for a main.

However in SC5 compared to previous installments it is much more possible to win with any character with every character having access to JG, GI, throws and ZWEI still having usable attacks in his arsenal meaning he can in fact still win.

He is a character that does require more effort to win and to try make up for that its going to be very important to be already on top of all the basics - https://8wayrun.com/threads/the-basics-of-soulcalibur.15258/ credit to Drake.

Learning your ranges, options, when to take risks, gimmicks and having MU knowledge to get all the guaranteed damage. These points pretty much what you need anyway with any character but having these basics also aswell as a decent understanding of the advanced mechanics - (https://8wayrun.com/threads/lesser-known-advanced-mechanics-of-sc5.18389/) is going to be important to give you the most advantages and options for damage as possible.

Bottom line is if your playing him then it's because you want to and its gonna be down to you the ZWEI player to make the choices and reads and not necessarily the character himself being the reason why he loses.

-Advantages/Pros of Z.W.E.I.-

So what does ZWEI actually have going for him? What are the strategies are to win?

- Above average damage output. (WRB duck punish, B+K BE, 66A+B)
- Soild guard damage game is where alot of his pressure comes from. (66A+B, 66B, 214B, A+B)
- Spacing/Zoning Tools to cover space. (B+K, B hold, A hold, 6A, 66B, B+K BE and long distance Ein holds)
- Viable pokes and reverse mix ups. (AA, 2A, B strings, 6B, 2K, 9B)
- Throws. Sometimes the basic plan of throw/mid mix up is what can win you games.
- Pretty good RO options (A+B, 66A, 66BA, 4B BE and 1K BE links)
- Set Ups. With a abundance of gimmicks and traps does really test your opponents MU knowledge that if is not being dealt with correctly gives you extra tools that improve his options.

-The Match Ups-

I'm going to go give a score and fairly brief description of each of his MUs of what is determining that score and my opinion of best ways to handle each one. I am not the biggest fan of MU ratios personally but using them for a rough insight to each one. Having used alot of the cast myself and who i've played this is how I would put each one and my opinion on what each score means.

5 -5 would be a even MU.
6 -4 would be having some advantage over.
7 - 3 would be having a clear advantage over (here I would class a bad MU).
8 - 2 would be huge advantage over limiting a huge amount of the moves list.

I don't think for SC5 that MUs across all characters go any worse than 8-2.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Patroklos :sc5pat1: ( 4 - 6) ---
Played against: WolfLoneThe, Deathsm8.

Patroklos has strong frames, 50/50s mix ups and multi covering options over ZWEI.

ZWEI doesn't find this MU clearly one sided because he can use his spacing tools keep Patroklos out of range of his mix ups and with Pats range can use A+B mid range due to the pushback

https://8wayrun.com/threads/match-up-notes-and-discussion-z-w-e-i-vs-patroklos.17172/

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs ZWEI :sc5zwe1: ( 5 - 5) ---

Mirror Match!

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Leixia :sc5lei1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: Hyrul, Kalas, GOLD MagicZappy.

Leixia is fast, has good frames, just as strong if not stronger GB game than ZWEI and some unique auto evades like crybaby, WRB BE and CE that beats out 66A+B.

ZWEI can take advantage of her range to keep her out with spacing tools. Leixia's damage being on the weaker side means if ZWEI was to guess right on a horizontal or vertical and whiff punish that means he can get big damage off compared to her, meaning she has to get more hits in to make it even.

https://8wayrun.com/threads/match-up-notes-discussion-z-w-e-i-vs-leixia.17576/

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Natsu :sc5nat1: ( 3 - 7 ) ---
Played against: GOLD Rock, TxA, Jason.

Natsu has a strong advantage in this MU because ZWEI can't punish her normally unsafe moves on block giving her much less risk to worry about. Her moves like 66B, A+B, 66AB, while having to be wary of A:6, 66K and 22A.

ZWEI must play the MU using spacing to limit her tools and keeping her honest as possible with the pokes like 2A and B strings.

--- :sc5zwe1:ZWEI vs Ezio :sc5ezi1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
No EU full Ezio mains but scored based on my knowledge of him.

Ezio similiar to Pat has multi covering options but instead of as strong 50/50s has better punishment with meter and can prevent long range Ein holds because of his Crossbow.

ZWEI can still keep away with B+K and A+B when Ezio has no meter. Safe pokes and using GI to try make him use the meter.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Rapheal :sc5rap1: (5 -5) ---
Played against: Freaky sound, Zanaken.

Raph does have the range to try keep out and can punish ZWEI consistently with 6BB and 3B.

ZWEI has the ability to read for horizontal and WRB or for verticals and 3B when Raph uses them and similiar to Leixia his damage output is low meaning will need to land more hits to make up for it.

---:sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Viola :sc5vio1: ( 3 - 7 ) ---
Played against: kalo123, Zanaken.

Viola being fast, 44A and access to ToD combos just makes her a threat against any character.

ZWEI does however have some strategies vs her because of her range and weak block punishment can use attacks like A+B. Having 6A+B aGI is useful aswell.

---:sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Pyrrha :sc5pyr1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played agaianst: HolyCarp, Triade Mr Nob and GOLD Dararak.

Pyrrha being fast, good at punishing and strong movement can punish ZWEI for his unsafe attacks forces to do a defensive options or take a risk to counter her frame traps.

ZWEI can keep distance on Pyrrha and use pokes to play safe to open up whiffs. 6A+B aGI being useful aswell with all the mids she has.

---:sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Siegfried :sc5sig1: (4 - 6 ) ---
Played agaianst: Pantocrator, Joel.

Siegfried's best ability is to control space and keeping out with tools like Aga, B6. He also has a reliable punish on A+B with B6.

ZWEIs best strategy in this MU is to get in using tools like 66B, 33B and B+K BE. Once in then pressure with grabs and pokes like 2A, B strings, 2K and 9B.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Hlide :sc4hil1: ( 3 - 7 ) ---
Played against: SsyluS, Wolfkrone.

Hlide is a character with strong tools close up (2A, 2K, 3K, 66K) and long range (C3B and CE) that can pressure long distance Ein holds. C2A is a incredible tool just multi covering her from being stepped or ducked and even on JG only being -15 means at best close up ZWEI gets 4KB.

ZWEI can stay in the MU with her lackluster punishment so can use 66B as a safe on block getting in tool. then staying in with pokes, 6A+B aGI, option select JG and pressure with grabs as Hlide can tech the same grab she is holding.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Xiba :sc1kil1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
No full EU Xiba mains this was judged based on my knowledge of him.

Xiba has good range, movement and the ability to use REM to aGI almost all of his Ein strings.

ZWEI can turn it into a reverse mix up with only doing the first parts of the strings or bait and JG the aGI if attempted on a full hold charge. ZWEI can also use the fact Xiba doesnt have great block punishment either using A+B at range, 66B and 33B to get in.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Ivy :sc4ivy1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: Deathsm8.

Ivy has her long range that can keep ZWEI out and with tools like 3B and 214B makes you have to commit to a risk to punish her for it.

ZWEI can go for reads on her verticals and horizontals to get big damage off. 66B and 33B still good getting in tools. ZWEI can on reads for a 3A BE or a 6A+B aGI aswell on 3B or 214B.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Cervantes :sc1crv1: ( 3 - 7 ) ---
Played against: Keev, SsyluS and Joel.

Cervantes attacks are more safe vs ZWEI so his tools of 66B, 66A, 3B and aB when done mid to far range.
Good movement and damage making ZWEI be extra careful. and the ability to CE to punish far distance Ein holds.

ZWEI can still fight back with his pokes and close range and can punish aB when close up with 4B BE and mid range 4A hold. Cervantes also doesnt naturally TC too much so less likely throws and other highs to whiff.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Aeon :sc5aon1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: Deus.

Aeon has good movement and his 66A being safe in this MU is a way for him to control sapce. The stage is also a big component of his games with ROs.

ZWEI can take advantage of Aeons lackluster using 66B and tip range A+B as will be safe. ZWEI RO game is pretty decent aswell so if Aeon is on a stage with alot of RO potenial then ZWEI can take advantage of it aswell.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Tira :sc4tir1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: Hyrul, Sensu.

Tira when in Gloomy has a very strong moveset giving her access to fast pokes, long range tools and attacks like 3B where the risk reward is very in Tiras favor.

ZWEI can take advantage when Tira is in Jolly because of her much less damage output. Get in tools like 66B are still useful along with pokes. Tira and Astaroth are 2 characters that Run K into 1K BE is a combo on them giving ZWEI a much better 50/50 run mix up on them.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Nightmare :sc5nm1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: Keev, cnjdo, Zer0.

Nightmare has his great movement and spacing tools like Aga, 22a which can force risks of whiffing trying to get in.

ZWEI can punish NM better as he is more unsafe than Seig. Tools like 66B is a good get in tool and once in similar to Seig you can use grabs and quick pokes to pressure close up.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Mitsurugi :sc2mit2: ( 3 - 7 ) ---
Played against: Skyll, Raziel, SsyluS.

Mitsu has good frames, 50/50s and multi covering options similiar to Pat but with longer range and better punishment giving ZWEI even less tools to safely work with.

ZWEI can still fight in the MU with keeping him honest after his tools with fast pokes like B holds, 2A, AA, 6B and 9B. Having 66B as a safe on block get in tool and similiar to Cervy with not many attacks of his having auto TC making throws, 6b, AA etc from whiffing as much.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Maxi :sc2maxi1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: WolfLoneThe, Sotris and GOLD Lopez.

Maxi i'd say just makes it his favor with his punishment options especially with meter, solid pokes and his WRB+K.

ZWEI best option would be to play at range with B+K. Getting option select JG on 6A+B will be a launch punish important if attacking of close using his standard pokes. When Maxi hasn't got meter at mid range can use A+B as will be safe.

https://8wayrun.com/threads/match-up-notes-discussion-z-w-e-i-vs-maxi.17604/

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Yoshimitsu :sc2yos2: ( 5 - 5 ) ---
Played against: Lolo at EMS, Radadak and Rudeboy.

I do believe this MU is made even and its mainly due to Yoshi's range outside of 66A+B. Tools like B+K, B hold reverse mix ups, 66B being safe aswell as A+B mid to range cant be punished. Yoshi does have his iMCF when in range and his powerful 50/50s ar not to be underestimated either.

--- :sc5zwe1:ZWEI vs Dampierre :sc5dam1: ( 6 - 4 ) ---
Played against: Oh my foot.

This is one one MU i believe ZWEI has a advantage in. Damp has good throw range, 11B for half life and 623B when it doesnt decide to fail but really thats it. ZWEI has the spacing tools with A+B, 66B, B+K that keep Damp out and his bad block punishment means they are much safer on block.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Voldo :sc2vol3: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: Maxou.

Voldo has his evasive attacks, strong 50/50s and safe multi covering options.

ZWEI can use his spacing tools to limit Voldo's options and has the option to get in with 66B which he cant punish. Using throws and pokes in this MU to try keep him in check.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Astaroth :sc5ast1: ( 4 - 6 ) ---
Played against: King Astaroth.

Astaroth has good zoning tools to keep ZWEI out and a far superior throw range.

ZWEI can take advantage of his poor puinshment to get in/hit guard gauge with tools like A+B, 66B. Being faster than him aswell means close pressure is going to be more effective and baiting out 66K BE. Having the stronger Run K mix up combo into 1K BE like on Tira gives that stronger mix up.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Alpha Pat :sc5sc: ( 2 - 8 ) ---
Played against: GOLD Shad, SsyluS.

aPat is definitely in theory his worse MU. Like other MUs him being safe, fast, having good range and multi covering options would defo make it 3 - 7 no question but what takes it over this mark is his the outstanding punishment options and that JFT is the only move in the game that block punishes 66B on block and also ducks under any attempt in doing the A at the end. What takes the cake is when aPat has meter and is a CE away from winning the round to only moves ZWEI has on block that arent -8 on block or more is - AA, 2A, 9A, 33A, BB, 6B, 9B, K, 3K and 9K.

ZWEI can still use his pokes but probably the best way to play MU considering the spacing outcomes and aPats punishment options is just to get in and apply as many 50/50s as possible with throws/run mix ups and reads to get as much pressure and damage as possible.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Algol :sc4alg1:( 3 - 7 ) ---
Played against: Raziel, Noobicyde.

Algol has some very strong pokes, range and due to ZWEIs punishment is much more safer aswell. Algol does do a lot of damage with meter similar to ZWEI but his damage combos come from a i18 -4 on block 66B, as for ZWEI his attacks that lead onto damage are from much slower or more unsafe attacks. He also has ability to use CE to punish far distance Ein holds.

ZWEI can poke back with his tools and get in with 66B as is safe on block vs him. Reading a grab or stepping a vertical can land you also high damage aswell.

--- :sc5zwe1: ZWEI vs Pyrrha Omega :sc5se: ( 3 - 7 ) ---
Played against: HolyCarp and Skyzo.

Omega has the movement, punishment and auto evades of regular Pyrrha. DNS B is a i15 TC 90 damage attack that because of the pushback cant be punished. 6K is a i17 safe mid with pushback meaning if she does a backstep the only way that it can be countered is with ZWEI 66B which Omega can just step or 2A to beat that option.

ZWEI can still space with B+K and get in with 66B. 8A+B is also safe vs her. Taking a offensive role with pokes, throws and forcing respect is the best way to play MU.

-Conclusion-

ZWEI is a low tier character that can do well if the work is put in but is still very fun and swaggy to use!

6 years by the time SC6 is released is a long time with this game which is alot of time in training and matches done. Playing this character definitely had a feel of satisfaction and that any win is much deserved.

Shout out to the ZWEI players that helped contribute with the findings.

Lets hope ZWEI returns into the new game as he is very cool and his character concept has so much potenial.

Have a happy new year everybody :)
 
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ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
-His faster moves are short range and his longer range moves are slow.
I know what you mean, but this can be applied to 80% of the cast, honestly.

Lack of i16/17 punish, stepkill, and holes in basics, were what I always saw when I briefly played him and fought against Cross of Ravens.
I like the gimmicks off his A grab. Backstep B+K and A+B. But yeah... that's really it. 6A is an unsafe high... The damn 1K BE randomly drops/whiffs at the worst times too.

Also, wtf is that weird crouch dash he does when pressing 33 or 236?
 
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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
I know what you mean, but this can be applied to 80% of the cast, honestly.

Lack of i16/17 punish, stepkill, and holes in basics, were what I always saw when I briefly played him and fought against Cross of Ravens.
I like the gimmicks off his A grab. Backstep B+K and A+B. But yeah... that's really it. 6A is an unsafe high... The damn 1K BE randomly drops/whiffs at the worst times too.

Also, wtf is that weird crouch dash he does when pressing 33 or 236?
Yeah I will re word my general statement there.
His 4B is i17 but yeah his block punishment is not good.
Yeah I forgot to intitally add that his step kill is bad.
I will also mention the whiffs aswell but from my use of him I only get 1k be whiff happen when right at the edge at a angle alot of the time you can step to prevent it from whiffing.

I'll be honest I never actually noticed he looks TC when doing 236 input so I tested this and I cant get him to actually TC under any highs it's just the animation by the looks of it
 

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
Yeah I will re word my general statement there.
His 4B is i17 but yeah his block punishment is not good.
Yeah I forgot to intitally add that his step kill is bad.
I will also mention the whiffs aswell but from my use of him I only get 1k be whiff happen when right at the edge at a angle alot of the time you can step to prevent it from whiffing.

I'll be honest I never actually noticed he looks TC when doing 236 input so I tested this and I cant get him to actually TC under any highs it's just the animation by the looks of it
Ah. I didn't know 4B was i17.

I'm talking about in the combos like 3B, 1B BE, 1B BE, (etc), A+B where you do repeated 1B BEs. Do you really have time to step in between reps and still hit it?

And yeah, it doesn't do anything at all except get him punished during movement, lol. I thought maybe it was a stance he was supposed to have but they never gave him any moves from it
 
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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
Ah. I didn't know 4B was i17.

I'm talking about in the combos like 3B, 1B BE, 1B BE, (etc), A+B where you do repeated 1B BEs. Do you really have time to step in between reps and still hit it?

And yeah, it doesn't do anything at all except get him punished during movement, lol. I thought maybe it was a stance he was supposed to have but they never gave him any moves from it
Yeah you do it's possible to do a micro step which is enough to align between 1K BEs.
 

Egg

[10] Knight
imo the Zwei vs Cervy mu is 8-2. aB being safe at distance makes this mu just impossible.

Also Zwei cant punish Ezio's Stomp low without a JG. The MU is stupid.
 

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
imo the Zwei vs Cervy mu is 8-2. aB being safe at distance makes this mu just impossible
Most characters have this issue w Cerv aB though. (But you could've just been using sarcasm, so feel free to correct me, lol.)

Anyway, @AndyrooSC Lex vs Zwei I'm really tempted to say it's awful for Zwei. (Not 10-0 obviously, but maaayybe 7-3...?) Yes, I know if you guess right you do more damage, but man...
Crybaby destroying his Ein oki, CE blowing through 66A+B on block, The fact he can't really punish her much at all without JG on things like 6KK and 3B. The fact that he's really slow and has trouble stopping side movement. It's really one of those "no fear" type of matchups that Leixia doesn't have a lot of. She just feels designed to counter him in nearly every way.
 
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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
@Egg yeah similar to what Zeroeffect says aB tip range most characters have this problem. Tip range aB is also super steppable making it risky incase of whiff punish. Also unless it's spaced perfectly A+B on it is a force block and is safe unless Cervy has meter for CE.

Ezio stomp is good move either way but I still wouldn't say it would make the MU worse than a 4 - 6 and again unless spaced out perfectly ZWEI can 4B BE it on hit and a WRB on block.

@ZeroEffect317 still for me from my experience I have much preferred fighting Leixia than some others characters. The Cry baby situation I would go for max damage instead on launchers instead of OTG 1B hold, plus as a alternative approach 3B - 1B no hold still gives ZWEI oki that can read crybaby block it and CE punish.

66A+B only good anyway when opponent hasnt got meter lol B+K and WRB good verticals that are safe and lead to good damage and as for step punish options to hit for trying to move out the way of the verticals are step forward 2A, AA, WRA, grabs and a more risky option in 3A BE but with lex damage about same damage either side whoever wins.

Yeah he doesn't have optimal punishment at all but alot of her main stuff like 66K, FC3B, 3A+B all safe vs most cast anyway. The best options on blocked 3B I see are K punish, throw attempt/BB and 2A force block.

Without B+K and it's properties I would safely say 3 - 7 imo but I think it's not completely soild in her favor imo ofc :)
 

Zane

Spirit of the Wolf
Quick shout outs to all the Zwei players returning for SC6 to try and make this character shine again (myself included) regardless of him being bottom tier or broken tier. And shout outs to Andyroo and everyone else for having contributed so much in the lifespan of SCV.

The Wolfpack lives on. I will see you all in SC6.
 

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
[USER=2058]@ZeroEffect317 still for me from my experience I have much preferred fighting Leixia than some others characters. The Cry baby situation I would go for max damage instead on launchers instead of OTG 1B hold, plus as a alternative approach 3B - 1B no hold still gives ZWEI oki that can read crybaby block it and CE punish.

66A+B only good anyway when opponent hasnt got meter lol B+K and WRB good verticals that are safe and lead to good damage and as for step punish options to hit for trying to move out the way of the verticals are step forward 2A, AA, WRA, grabs and a more risky option in 3A BE but with lex damage about same damage either side whoever wins.

Yeah he doesn't have optimal punishment at all but alot of her main stuff like 66K, FC3B, 3A+B all safe vs most cast anyway. The best options on blocked 3B I see are K punish, throw attempt/BB and 2A force block.

Without B+K and it's properties I would safely say 3 - 7 imo but I think it's not completely soild in her favor imo ofc :)[/USER]
It's tough to rate Leixia matches, imo, just because of her damage being so low. So in theory, everyone can beat her/go even with her due to needing less reads.

Also can he even punish AAB or Rising B on block with something more than a K punish? I feel like these things go a long way since AAB is good CH damage and only risk is being stab-able/CE-able from a lot of chars. WS B is auto evade+duck, but most chars can launch her. 4B BE should work, but what does he get without bar if possible? (I know 3B and A+B don't punish. Zwei A+B should be i16, imo).
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
I have a personal headcanon/theory that Edgelord might be Z.W.E.I. before he became Z.W.E.I., and that he'll awaken E.I.N. during the story.
 

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
I have a personal headcanon/theory that Edgelord might be Z.W.E.I. before he became Z.W.E.I., and that he'll awaken E.I.N. during the story.
No lie, I actually thought about that for a second when they showed the dual wielder in the trailer.
 
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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
@ZeroEffect317 Yeah K punish on AAB unless JG is as much guaranteed will get. As for blocked WRB it's 4B BE with meter and without its 4KB for knockdown. This does mean moves like this do have less risk vs ZWEI absolutely but on moves like 3B and AAB a guaranteed punish of any sort is still damage and a hit is still helping against that momentum. It's better for him than against other characters like Natsu 66B/66AB/A+B and Cervantes 66B/66A where there is no punish at all.

Yeah I mention my personal buff changes in the wishlist thread I would be more than happy if ZWEI AA was i13, 4B was i16 and A+B was i18.

With the confirmation of no BE attacks in SC6, ZWEI if he's in is going to play very differently so here's hoping they balance it right lol If he so happens to not be then guess I'll see you all on the Zasalamel SA xD
AND if he ain't in chances are Edgelord will end up being really swaggy, probably knowing my luck low tier and to rub it in his name will probably start with Z too!
 
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Zanaken

[10] Knight
I would argue Raphael has an advantage over Zwei though. His 4b ducks under one of your charge moves and his 22b dodges another (you'll know better which ones.)

I might not play the best I theoretically could, but I think in a perfect world Raphael edges out.