Talim Patch Notes for next Patch

CrazyYoshimitsu

[10] Knight
I don't know why 6BB needs to be nerf when there is clear counter play. I would get this if the opponent was an idiot and didn't know how to tech, but...…..come on man.
 

Skiegh

[04] Fighter
This whole patch just seemed to help Talim in some of the areas she was worse off in. Her on-block punish game being abysmal (as I've touched on before), is something that these changes all aimed to fix. She had very few avenues for guaranteed damage. Something was either -14 or -20, and the areas inbetween didn't yield massive increases in reward. At -18, 44K was probably your best bet.

6AK hitting more consistently, 4BA hitting more consistently, 6BB being a NC, all of these just seem to giving her something to punish with, especially against more negative moves that have a lot of pushback. Nightmare and Sieg certainly had a lot of those and she had a tough time getting much afterwards.

Hearing 6BB was going to be a NC, I was prepared for a 39ish damage combo into a very highly plus stance mix-up, essentially allowing her to run her game using whatever option she wanted. That seemed like enough to me. Cause 6BB was already an amazing counter-hit tool. However if you ever hit with the first hit of it, since you couldn't really hit-confirm it (by that I mean not confirming the second hit, you can charge on reaction or not), you were committed and sort of punished for hitting with it. So this change made sense to me. The whole 6BB into WNS A+B into whatever however I do think it is a bit much.

I don't know why 6BB needs to be nerf when there is clear counter play. I would get this if the opponent was an idiot and didn't know how to tech, but...…..come on man.
As a Talim main, I will use whatever they want to give me, but as a Talim main, I feel compelled to be honest about the character. This buff is uh, way more than she needed from this normal. Let's look at what 6BB was already, versus what it is now...

Pre-patch:

- Built in delayable guard break frame trap
- Potent counter-hit stun on first or second hit, leading to a combo
- Hit-confirmable (though you would have to commit to the second B no matter what, but you could delay it on block), and it was stance confirmable (so when you saw a stun/block, you could stance forward or back on reaction)
- High damage on counter-hit
- Spaced and stanced well, was pretty safe on block
- Great tool for backstep catching

Post-patch:

- All of the above
- Slightly easier to punish due to less pushback
- Due to increased hit-stun on first hit, is now hit-confirmable on normal or counter-hit.
- Highest damage bnb starter, even matching her 66A+B, which covers the same ranges, while also being slower (though isn't plus on block)
- Offers very potent ringout potential/carry due to the WNS A+B being her best forward moving ringout move
- New pushback makes CH combos different, and sometimes fickle, but potentially offers more Oki options afterwards than the previous combo.

6BB was already a fantastic normal, as it was confirmable on counterhits and did good damage. It was clearly built for counterhitting, so my issue with this normal goes beyond the strength it brings but also the aesthetic and design.

6BB does not look like a launcher. The counter-hit has an electric sizzle, which sells the impact more, and this builds into your idea of it having more reward as a result. 6B(B) has the full thunder sound effect going into it, granting impact to it's attack and the subsequent guaranteed stun it yields. 6BB NC... does not look like it should be doing extended combos. Yet the version that sells itself the least is now the BEST version of the move damage-wise. That is ass backwards design. Visuals, audio, even the moves design concept are all shattered by this move operating the way it does now. Even the character archetype is at flux here.

So while yes, I will abuse the crap out of this move. Let it be known that I stand by this move being broken, and I fully expect this combo extension on it to be removed. If the combo extension is not removed in the next balance patch, I will let any person in this thread pick my character, and I will be forced to use only that character for the next month.

I am very confident in it being an oversight, and I hope it is, because I don't find the combo satisfying. Every bit of it's visuals irks me on a fundamental design level. I also admit, I never once actually looked into what you could hit with after a regular hit of the second hit of 6BB pre-this patch because... I never hit with it, it was either counter or the first hit got blocked. So this combo was likely always there, just near impossible to use. Now it's waaay too good, and it also makes a lot of her other moves sort of worthless. Rather Talim had other areas of her kit improved rather than this. I'll keep the 6BB NC, but I don't want that combo.
 
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Fuzzieviking

[13] Hero
do we think these are the changes she needed though is the question. I'd have been more than fine if all she got where improved frames on her stances, maybe a bit more distance on both 4B+K and 6B+K.

Are these decent in replacement?
 

CrazyYoshimitsu

[10] Knight
This whole patch just seemed to help Talim in some of the areas she was worse off in. Her on-block punish game being abysmal (as I've touched on before), is something that these changes all aimed to fix. She had very few avenues for guaranteed damage. Something was either -14 or -20, and the areas inbetween didn't yield massive increases in reward. At -18, 44K was probably your best bet.

6AK hitting more consistently, 4BA hitting more consistently, 6BB being a NC, all of these just seem to giving her something to punish with, especially against more negative moves that have a lot of pushback. Nightmare and Sieg certainly had a lot of those and she had a tough time getting much afterwards.

Hearing 6BB was going to be a NC, I was prepared for a 39ish damage combo into a very highly plus stance mix-up, essentially allowing her to run her game using whatever option she wanted. That seemed like enough to me. Cause 6BB was already an amazing counter-hit tool. However if you ever hit with the first hit of it, since you couldn't really hit-confirm it (by that I mean not confirming the second hit, you can charge on reaction or not), you were committed and sort of punished for hitting with it. So this change made sense to me. The whole 6BB into WNS A+B into whatever however I do think it is a bit much.



As a Talim main, I will use whatever they want to give me, but as a Talim main, I feel compelled to be honest about the character. This buff is uh, way more than she needed from this normal. Let's look at what 6BB was already, versus what it is now...

Pre-patch:

- Built in delayable guard break frame trap
- Potent counter-hit stun on first or second hit, leading to a combo
- Hit-confirmable (though you would have to commit to the second B no matter what, but you could delay it on block), and it was stance confirmable (so when you saw a stun/block, you could stance forward or back on reaction)
- High damage on counter-hit
- Spaced and stanced well, was pretty safe on block
- Great tool for backstep catching

Post-patch:

- All of the above
- Slightly easier to punish due to less pushback
- Due to increased hit-stun on first hit, is now hit-confirmable on normal or counter-hit.
- Highest damage bnb starter, even matching her 66A+B, which covers the same ranges, while also being slower (though isn't plus on block)
- Offers very potent ringout potential/carry due to the WNS A+B being her best forward moving ringout move
- New pushback makes CH combos different, and sometimes fickle, but potentially offers more Oki options afterwards than the previous combo.

6BB was already a fantastic normal, as it was confirmable on counterhits and did good damage. It was clearly built for counterhitting, so my issue with this normal goes beyond the strength it brings but also the aesthetic and design.

6BB does not look like a launcher. The counter-hit has an electric sizzle, which sells the impact more, and this builds into your idea of it having more reward as a result. 6B(B) has the full thunder sound effect going into it, granting impact to it's attack and the subsequent guaranteed stun it yields. 6BB NC... does not look like it should be doing extended combos. Yet the version that sells itself the least is now the BEST version of the move damage-wise. That is ass backwards design. Visuals, audio, even the moves design concept are all shattered by this move operating the way it does now. Even the character archetype is at flux here.

So while yes, I will abuse the crap out of this move. Let it be known that I stand by this move being broken, and I fully expect this combo extension on it to be removed. If the combo extension is not removed in the next balance patch, I will let any person in this thread pick my character, and I will be forced to use only that character for the next month.

I am very confident in it being an oversight, and I hope it is, because I don't find the combo satisfying. Every bit of it's visuals irks me on a fundamental design level. I also admit, I never once actually looked into what you could hit with after a regular hit of the second hit of 6BB pre-this patch because... I never hit with it, it was either counter or the first hit got blocked. So this combo was likely always there, just near impossible to use. Now it's waaay too good, and it also makes a lot of her other moves sort of worthless. Rather Talim had other areas of her kit improved rather than this. I'll keep the 6BB NC, but I don't want that combo.
Gonna go line by line.

Pre-patch

-That can be poke out by As that are i10 or i12
-Yeah it's pretty good.
-Yeah but not very safe.
-Yeah.
- -20 isn't "Safe on block" Even Astaroth can punish that. You also have to consider Talim's range is not the best. Also 6B(B) was only +2 on block which is solid but most characters will smack you out of it before you get the GB if they know the mu. Do that versus Geralt and it's aGi or 5AA to your face.

Post Patch

-Ehhh
-It was easy to punish pre patch and it being -16 doesn't make it free as you can still get crack for something. some have argue it is a punish but it's i18....so i don't know about that.
-Yeah which is something Zero talk about her needing for ages and I argee as she lacks good NH combo starters.
-Which is fine with me.
-That's good as her RO game is kind of very situational.
- Ehhh it's fine once you figure out how to time WNS K. I'm shocked they do less damage compared to the NH

As a Talim main, I am not playing this false sense of loyal and try to say something is broken when it isn't. I feel similar to 2B people are living in the moment too much and are not thinking straight. 6BB is i18 and it's not the fastest move on the planet and can be punish pretty heavily by some characters. Also, the 3B ender(which I will test more) is not something you're getting for free but creates a nice mindgame where you can condition them with it and mix in 2A+B to make them confuse on when to tech or not but if you're always doing it you are gonna get tech to the left and punish for it.

6BB was only good on CH before this and honsety on Normal hit it was useless as you were negative on hit and it was -20. It was a free punish for the opponent. And for your argument of, "It's not nartual". Nightmare and Ivy has down attacks that can you hit standing dude. I don't really see how anything of what you're saying makes sense.

It's not going anywhere because it's not broken. They're not gonna nerf something when there are clear ways around it. The move is the farthest thing from being broken and it won't be taken out in Jan 11th as that would just be dumb to buff something and then nerf it weeks later. That is like signing a palyer just to trade them the next day. I also want you and others to consider Ivy and Raph have things similar to this, but are much more faster than her and no one is saying anything about that. I think people need calm down and stop with kneejerk reactions. We are seriously treating a move that is -16, still pokeable if you wish to charge it, and stoppable on reaction as the second coming of Jesus. Despite all these buffs Talim will still struggle to get in on some characters and something like this will be only used for whiff punishes or risky pressure tools.

Also nerfing this really fucks up the character as you make WNS much worst because of it. It doesn't help her range is already an issue as certain moves you should be able to punish she can't because of how they knock her back. For example, you can't punish Shopie's 3A even though it's -14. You guys really don't understand what you're getting yourself into and need to calm down. I feel like I have to legit make a video showing people how to beat it similar to when ESAM had to show people how to Smash DI Bayonetta and is now showing people how to beat Inkling. People need to sit down and do proper testing before we deem something broken.
 
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ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
do we think these are the changes she needed though is the question. I'd have been more than fine if all she got where improved frames on her stances, maybe a bit more distance on both 4B+K and 6B+K.

Are these decent in replacement?
Decent? Absolutely.

BT B being safe was the only change I openly stated since the beta, lol. The rest of these changes were things I didn't expect, but can't really complain about. 6AK is actually a real move now, gives her a forgiving step catch outside of 6K range. WNS A tracking is pretty major it seems. 6BB being NC was something I thought would fill out her kit nicely, but the combo it gets now is ridiculous.

But I feel like, at the end of the day, contesting neutral will always be her biggest weakness. WNS is still not a very strong stance. But the things she has gotten are enough to make it easier for her to stick to your opponent once you DO get in. WNC B:B being 0 for instance.
 

Skiegh

[04] Fighter
do we think these are the changes she needed though is the question. I'd have been more than fine if all she got where improved frames on her stances, maybe a bit more distance on both 4B+K and 6B+K.

Are these decent in replacement?
Well, I like 6BB being a NC combo, I think that change is great for her. It really helps her awkward zone punish game between -15~-19. The follow-up damage I find to be a little ridiculous. 6BB was really good already, and it wasn't a move I looked at and was like "boy, I wish this was better." She has a lot of moves I think were less than stellar that had near no use. 22_88BB is pretty useless, her aGI is still a detriment, all of her unblockables are worthless, FC A+B really could due to be faster or at least have the first hit be mid (it's a literal vertical swing, how is it a high?). I do think with the nerf to WNS-B, it's use is very dwindled and needs another purpose.

Also nerfing this really fucks up the character as you make WNS much worst because of it. It doesn't help her range is already an issue as certain moves you should be able to punish she can't because of how they knock her back. For example, you can't punish Shopie's 3A even though it's -14. You guys really don't understand what you're getting yourself in too and need to calm down. I feel like I have to legit make a video showing people how to beat it similar to when ESAM had to show people how to Smash DI Bayonetta and is now showing people how to beat Inkling. People need to sit down and do proper testing before we deem something broken.
It's not a matter of 6BB being godly, it's a matter of it not making much sense as it is right now. NC 6BB is fine (that's still 39 damage or so into stance pressure), the follow-up is a little much. Why is 6BB, which is already a very solid move, designed for counter-hitting, doing more damage NC, than it is NCC? That is a fundamental design flaw.

I never said the move is without flaws. It's steppable, when properly reacted to and poorly spaced, it's punishable. You are, however, massively overselling how easy it is to punish 6BB. A huge part of Talim's gameplan is based around what stance she is going to go into. If you knee-jerk try and punish a WNF jump-back stance cancel, she might just WNS A+B you and hit your punish. Now, each character has their own options with this, and the goal is to find a punish which hits all of her stance cancels (Sophie for instance can do 66A which will punish a jump back and WNC, and go under a WNS). There are also usually much more damaging punishes for specific stance cancels, if you want to go in on a read (for instance, Sophie can do 66B against a jump back, but if you do anything else, she gets blasted). Talim can also charge it, which is another mind game in and of itself. Pre-patch, but even post patch, the pushback on this move was/is such that she does create A LOT of distance between you and the opponent with this move.

Most of your response is akin to "And I'm okay with that, why not!?" as opposed to why does this specific move, and why does Talim need this in this specific area? She needs the NC, I feel. I do not think she needs the assistance in damage afterwards. The free stance cancel pressure afterwards, and the fact she can now confirm this option so long as it hits in anyway are both great boons in and of themselves. Hitting 70~81 damage is excessive.


BT B being safe was the only change I openly stated since the beta, lol. 6BB being NC was something I thought would fill out her kit nicely. The rest of these changes were things I didn't expect, but can't really complain about. 6AK is actually a real move now, gives her a forgiving step catch outside of 6K range. WNS A tracking is pretty major it seems.

But I feel like, at the end of the day, contesting neutral will always be her biggest weakness. WNS is still not a very strong stance. But the things she has gotten are enough to make it easier for her to stick to your opponent once you DO get in. WNC B:B being 0 for instance.
Aw, man, don't get me started on how nice BT B now. I was already a BT-boy, that's how and where I want to be. Now you can just do whatever once you get BT, it's the best. I love it. My entire gameplan is getting BT. Now if only she could hold WNC down to go into BT... ah, if only. Didn't she have multiple WNCs in SC2? I recall that being a thing.

WNS:B is a loss, for sure. It's purpose is sort of screwy now.

I also really like the 3A change. As people get used to it, it won't mean too much, but it is nice to be able to force your turn a bit afterwards. Since that move is so slow and short, makes it more worth using. Now normally I want BT, but I wish this move ended front, while crouching, cause then you could use rising B, and get that clash stuff I talked about earlier. If it was +0 crouching, mmm... if only. BT is still fine though. You can read lows with B+K and highs with A, so you can try and get more than just a 2A clash if you want.
 
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ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
Well, I like 6BB being a NC combo, I think that change is great for her. It really helps her awkward zone punish game between -15~-19. The follow-up damage I find to be a little ridiculous. 6BB was really good already, and it wasn't a move I looked at and was like "boy, I wish this was better." She has a lot of moves I think were less than stellar that had near no use. 22_88BB is pretty useless, her aGI is still a detriment, all of her unblockables are worthless, FC A+B really could due to be faster or at least have the first hit be mid (it's a literal vertical swing, how is it a high?). I do think with the nerf to WNS-B, it's use is very dwindled and needs another purpose.



It's not a matter of 6BB being godly, it's a matter of it not making much sense as it is right now. NC 6BB is fine (that's still 39 damage or so into stance pressure), the follow-up is a little much. Why is 6BB, which is already a very solid move, designed for counter-hitting, doing more damage NC, than it is NCC? That is a fundamental design flaw.

I never said the move is without flaws. It's steppable, when properly reacted to and poorly spaced, it's punishable. You are, however, massively overselling how easy it is to punish 6BB. A huge part of Talim's gameplan is based around what stance she is going to go into. If you knee-jerk try and punish a WNF jump-back stance cancel, she might just WNS A+B you and hit your punish. Now, each character has their own options with this, and the goal is to find a punish which hits all of her stance cancels (Sophie for instance can do 66A which will punish a jump back and WNC, and go under a WNS). There are also usually much more damaging punishes for specific stance cancels, if you want to go in on a read (for instance, Sophie can do 66B against a jump back, but if you do anything else, she gets blasted). Talim can also charge it, which is another mind game in and of itself. Pre-patch, but even post patch, the pushback on this move was/is such that she does create A LOT of distance between you and the opponent with this move.

Most of your response is akin to "And I'm okay with that, why not!?" as opposed to why does this specific move, and why does Talim need this in this specific area? She needs the NC, I feel. I do not think she needs the assistance in damage afterwards. The free stance cancel pressure afterwards, and the fact she can now confirm this option so long as it hits in anyway are both great boons in and of themselves. Hitting 70~81 damage is excessive.




Aw, man, don't get me started on how nice BT B now. I was already a BT-boy, that's how and where I want to be. Now you can just do whatever once you get BT, it's the best. I love it. My entire gameplan is getting BT. Now if only she could hold WNC down to go into BT... ah, if only. Didn't she have multiple WNCs in SC2? I recall that being a thing.

WNS:B is a loss, for sure. It's purpose is sort of screwy now.

I also really like the 3A change. As people get used to it, it won't mean too much, but it is nice to be able to force your turn a bit afterwards. Since that move is so slow and short, makes it more worth using. Now normally I want BT, but I wish this move ended front, while crouching, cause then you could use rising B, and get that clash stuff I talked about earlier. If it was +0 crouching, mmm... if only. BT is still fine though. You can read lows with B+K and highs with A, so you can try and get more than just a 2A clash if you want.
I stand by the fact that pre-patch Talim in BT wasn't that good. Every option was launchable on block except her grabs. Her options from BT were also slower by 2 or so frames, so even if she entered BT at +2, she only traded with their 2As. Now though, she finally has a real threat with BT B.

I think 6BB is gonna be addressed sooner than later. Perhaps in a hotfix of some kind. But I am worried how they will fix it. If they lower the hit advantage on 6BB, then her WNC frame traps will no longer work properly either. If they add scaling to WNS A+B, it ruins her other combos with that move. It may be better overall to leave it be. But I'm assuming the worst on this. Right now she has an i18 punish for 70-80 dmg. The big thing about this is, unlike most characters, Talim doesn't have a normal speed launcher. 6BB is now that launcher.
 

CrazyYoshimitsu

[10] Knight
Well, I like 6BB being a NC combo, I think that change is great for her. It really helps her awkward zone punish game between -15~-19. The follow-up damage I find to be a little ridiculous. 6BB was really good already, and it wasn't a move I looked at and was like "boy, I wish this was better." She has a lot of moves I think were less than stellar that had near no use. 22_88BB is pretty useless, her aGI is still a detriment, all of her unblockables are worthless, FC A+B really could due to be faster or at least have the first hit be mid (it's a literal vertical swing, how is it a high?). I do think with the nerf to WNS-B, it's use is very dwindled and needs another purpose.



It's not a matter of 6BB being godly, it's a matter of it not making much sense as it is right now. NC 6BB is fine (that's still 39 damage or so into stance pressure), the follow-up is a little much. Why is 6BB, which is already a very solid move, designed for counter-hitting, doing more damage NC, than it is NCC? That is a fundamental design flaw.

I never said the move is without flaws. It's steppable, when properly reacted to and poorly spaced, it's punishable. You are, however, massively overselling how easy it is to punish 6BB. A huge part of Talim's gameplan is based around what stance she is going to go into. If you knee-jerk try and punish a WNF jump-back stance cancel, she might just WNS A+B you and hit your punish. Now, each character has their own options with this, and the goal is to find a punish which hits all of her stance cancels (Sophie for instance can do 66A which will punish a jump back and WNC, and go under a WNS). There are also usually much more damaging punishes for specific stance cancels, if you want to go in on a read (for instance, Sophie can do 66B against a jump back, but if you do anything else, she gets blasted). Talim can also charge it, which is another mind game in and of itself. Pre-patch, but even post patch, the pushback on this move was/is such that she does create A LOT of distance between you and the opponent with this move.

Most of your response is akin to "And I'm okay with that, why not!?" as opposed to why does this specific move, and why does Talim need this in this specific area? She needs the NC, I feel. I do not think she needs the assistance in damage afterwards. The free stance cancel pressure afterwards, and the fact she can now confirm this option so long as it hits in anyway are both great boons in and of themselves. Hitting 70~81 damage is excessive.
Well the reason NC is doing mroe than the CH one is because they added scaling to 6BB. I think move makes perfect sense as there is actual counter play. There was no counterplay to Azwel's backstep for example. There was no counterplay to Mercy mass res before the nerfs in Overwatch. There was no counterplay to Smoke's reset in MK9. See a theme here? I listed examples of actual broken shit in other games to show you what broken really is. You should look up counterplay as it is a big thing you need to consider game balance and ask, "Can someone do soemthing to stop this?"

Also while 6B(B) is a nice mind game characters with i10 to i12 moves can simply poke you out of it so it's risky. 6B(B) charge works well against people who just block Talim as they don't know her frames but people who do will 2A you all day. I don't think 6BB was a very solid mvoe as uncharged was -20 and most people were blocking that launching you for it. It seems you really have benefitted from people who don't know how to fight Talim. Try this against Fyre's Raph and he is fucking you up for it every time. I suggest playing people who know how to fight Talim before you crowd 6BB as a solid or even good move. While Talim's gameplan is built around stances, you need to realize people like Cervy and X can massively bop her for any of that funny shit. I'm not overselling anything. I jsut know how to fight her and i played people that have fucked me up for my mistakes and use of certain moves. Doing 6BB into some form of a stance is very risky if they block because msot characters aren't throwing out i16 or worse moves they will use that fastest move to catch which is a AA or BB. So unless you're playing maxis or Astaroth you aren't going to jsut dance on people all day. You need to pick your spots to use stances. Stuff like 4A+B and trying to bait them into WNF B is slightly gimmicky. It's not bad, but you really need to work and you're better off using stances for pressure and mixup. I feel fighting poor players have jaded you into thinking Talim can just evade shit when it is very janky as fuck.
 
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ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
Yeah, so now, the question is, HOW will they fix it?
As long as her WNC stance frame traps remain in-tact then 6BB will still be a great tool. But if her WNC stuff can be mashed out of, this lowers it's effectiveness.
 

Frayhua

Probationary User
Yeah, so now, the question is, HOW will they fix it?
As long as her WNC stance frame traps remain in-tact then 6BB will still be a great tool. But if her WNC stuff can be mashed out of, this lowers it's effectiveness.
6BB still being a NC with less time for Wind Sault A+B for connect is best rather than negating 6BB being a NC.
 
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ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
talim isn't allowed to have nice things guys.
I mean, Talim still got a bunch of nice things, lol.
But nah... Even I didn't think 6BB~WNS A+B would stay. She was basically doing LH damage on NH with that combo. CH 6BB was less damage, which clearly speaks to it being an oversight.
 

Skiegh

[04] Fighter
Well the reason NC is doing mroe than the CH one is because they added scaling to 6BB. I think move makes perfect sense as there is actual counter play. There was no counterplay to Azwel's backstep for example. There was no counterplay to Mercy mass res before the nerfs in Overwatch. There was no counterplay to Smoke's reset in MK9. See a theme here? I listed examples of actual broken shit in other games to show you what broken really is. You should look up counterplay as it is a big thing you need to consider game balance and ask, "Can someone do soemthing to stop this?"
Just because something has a solution to it, does not mean you can endlessly scale it. It is not broken in power scaling (though it is absurdly strong in my opinion), it's broken in terms of it does not function correctly. 6BB is built for counter-hits. If you want to advocate that Talim needs an 18i launcher, by all means preach it, but in no way is 6BB the move that deserves that function. It is a counter-hit tool, every aspect of it's design gleans that. If the second hit of 6BB came out in 4 frames, had a huge hit noise, and knocked the opponent across the entire screen and bounced them off the wall, then sure, it would make sense design-wise to be a combo tool. Her knocking them over onto their butt, them getting back up, returning to what appears to be recovered neutral just to get clipped... is not good design. I dislike this change more from a pure aesthetic standpoint than one in terms of power, though I am against both.

If you want to think 6BB is terrible, go for it. I think it's a good move, as it was before and how it is now (even keeping aside the combo). I think turning it into a launcher is a dumb idea. If I was going to look for a buff to 6BB beyond making it a NC, that fit with it's design, would be to allow it to be delay canceled on the second hit, so you can actually confirm the second hit without committing to it. That would be a huge buff, and make it a great move.

It being punishable and by what is character specific. The fact she has options (as I said), means in order for them to play smart, they would limit their punish of this move to one which would cover all options, which for a good chunk of characters leads to less reward. Some characters will for sure blow it up universally, sure, and in that match-up, you would use it less. It was safer before with the pushback than it is now, but it's still not a move that's going to be punished 100% of the time, and considering it's reward, I think that's fine. In some matchups, you're going to use it way more than not. For me, this move fulfills it's purpose well enough. It's not her best normal, but it's not her worst either. Also them mashing 2A after a blocked 6B is exactly what you want them to do, so you can release early and clip them. If they are crazy enough to 2A between a canned string that counter-hits like that, they are asking for a lot of damage.

Hi, I'm Skiegh, I'm the guy not basing things off of unknown information about who the other person on the forum plays against. Yes, I do not have the time and luxury to logon SCVI and have a set against tourny players all the time. I have still fought players like Party Wolf and such, and I would like to face more of them, more often, but this is a busy time of year. Usually just have time to log on, lab for a bit or hit ranked. If I'm lucky, someone strong might be my opponent before I have to go. God knows I love fighting better players.

I don't even use 6BB very often, but it fulfills it's purpose as a backstep catcher, and now, it will also function as a -18 punisher into a very high advantage stance oki. Seems good to me, but to each their own.

Talim's getting nerfed next month.
Guess I'm not learning a new main.

Yeah, so now, the question is, HOW will they fix it?
As long as her WNC stance frame traps remain in-tact then 6BB will still be a great tool. But if her WNC stuff can be mashed out of, this lowers it's effectiveness.
Oh, I think it's very unlikely her stance cancel stuff is going to be able to be mashed out of. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure 6BB is her most advantageous stance cancel, to the extent she can actually do WNC-B as a frame trap (at least against a 12i, it clashes against a 10i), which I think is unprecedented for her other moves, by a vast margin too. Right now, if you stance shift off of 6BB, you can do a WNS A frame trap, which I don't think truly works out of any other stance cancel, though you can get damn close. I think AABA WNS A stance cancels clash against 2As.

Anyway, I expect them to maybe slightly adjust the stance cancel window, which I hope doesn't hurt anything else she does, or the ability to hit-confirm the stance cancel option.

They would be dumb to nerf WNS A+B.

talim isn't allowed to have nice things guys.
Come ooon, she's still got some nice things. And who knows what the next patch will bring. I hate all of this rebalancing happening so early, but hey, whatever. I'll work with whatever they want to give me.
 

Fuzzieviking

[13] Hero
I mean, Talim still got a bunch of nice things, lol.
But nah... Even I didn't think 6BB~WNS A+B would stay. She was basically doing LH damage on NH with that combo. CH 6BB was less damage, which clearly speaks to it being an oversight.
Yeah but I mean she loses damage on many of her combos due to the WNS B property change, and while she may have traded that for safety, I don't think that's a trade she should have had to make. Considering she's already more work than the rest of the cast to start your damage anyway. Her reward for a 236b is mediocre at best, and bt b being safe I don't think is enough to make up for the over all nerf to her combo finishers.
 

speedking1254

[09] Warrior
do we think these are the changes she needed though is the question. I'd have been more than fine if all she got where improved frames on her stances, maybe a bit more distance on both 4B+K and 6B+K.

Are these decent in replacement?
You're absolutely right that is the question to ask and pretty much know and yes at the same time them improve in the bt B was nice but that's the only change that I really see that's decent.
I would like better frames on the stance
Wc b.b jf actually make you positive on block
Allow her when stands to actually GI med A and B high verticals and horizontal