Talim Patch Notes for next Patch

Skiegh

[05] Battler
If you hit CE in juggles you get all 3 hits before the cinematic. For example do 236B and then CE. If I'm right, that means you could do 236B~CE~6~WNS A+B or something for massive RO potential.
Going from memory, I don't think the second hit of CE picks up particularly high off the ground, so I think with that combo you would likely go flying over them, maybe clipping them slightly. I think more likely you could do WNS-(K) or maybe WNC-B~B.

All really depends on how quickly the second hit can be stance canceled.

Would be nice to get some sort of ringout potential from it, but considering Talim's track record on ring outs, she'll probably just ring herself out first. I am curious about scaling and stuff. She won't be the first character capable of canceling the cinematic, and I wonder if she'll get a higher damage output from it than she would for the normal CE. As it stands now, if you're not low life, her CE is very underwhelming damage-wise. Would lend more credence to using it at higher life thresholds. Don't have to worry about not wasting the "heal" and doing such little damage.

If nothing else, this also means, if she gets a combo from it, that she can circumvent the full screen distance put between her and the opponent on hit, which was the most detrimental thing about her super.

We'll see, I guess. It's going to be stupid regardless. Really, really, really, really stupid. Not a fan of meter mechanics being the buff spot, but... eh...
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #62

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
Would be nice to get some sort of ringout potential from it, but considering Talim's track record on ring outs, she'll probably just ring herself out first. I am curious about scaling and stuff.
We'll see, I guess. It's going to be stupid regardless. Really, really, really, really stupid. Not a fan of meter mechanics being the buff spot, but... eh...
Well 80% of her patch notes is on fixing self RO issues... so... yeah

And right now, honestly, I don't think CE stance cancel will end up changing all that much about her matchups. (and please, I've heard the "but RE cancel meter gain" argument to death...) But we'll have to wait and see. This is not what I would've done, but it could be fun to play with.
 

Skiegh

[05] Battler
Well 80% of her patch notes is on fixing self RO issues... so... yeah

And right now, honestly, I don't think CE stance cancel will end up changing all that much about her matchups. (and please, I've heard the "but RE cancel meter gain" argument to death...) But we'll have to wait and see. This is not what I would've done, but it could be fun to play with.
Well, I stand corrected. The only really decent combo you get from her super on hit is in-fact WNS-A+B. Which surprises me still because they are so low to the ground, but they seem to hover in the air for awhile, so that seems to be why. It can ring out but not particularly far. Still nice to know you can Yolo super near someone at the edge and get a ring out at least. It's very finicky though, so not something you could reliably do. Since they have to be airborne first, you would have to hit with a 236B or something first anyway. As linked above, it is a very slight range increase to 8B reverse ringouts, but nothing major. Still an improvement.

Important to note you have to hit with the non-cinematic version to do the stance cancel, so they have to be airborne first. Damage output is pretty meh, since all I can seem to get is WNS-A+B or WNS-K into a mix-up when they recover. WNC can't land a B, so everything is air recoverable, and obviously WNF cancels are too slow for anything. Damage off of 236B, CE(2), WNS-A+B is about 61 damage, compared to the 93 you would get normally. Not horrible but not great either. Still something useful to go for at certain times.

On block, this move is plus enough for the usual frame trap stuff: WNC-A/K, WNS-A+B. Can't really try for the other WNS options because she actually seems to go over opponents despite them being standing, I believe because the animation of her CE swing leaves her body very much inside the body of the opponent.

6BB now does 41 damage, pushes back slightly further on hit, to the point you can't land a WNC-A+G, which is unfortunate, because that was a guaranteed throw unless they specifically jumped or crouch guarded. Mashing 2As and such would get them thrown. Every WNS option is a frame trap, as well as the usual WNC-B. Also the first hit of 6B now hits grounded opponents every time, so that's neat.

Speaking of WNC-BB, I honestly do not notice much of a difference besides the horrible sound effect on it right now -- or perhaps missing sound effect. Damage is about the same. You can step between the B~B pretty easily. Unfortunately, the gap between BB and B~B is so small, that the opponent can't even be counter-hit into a juggle by the BB version. All you get is the second hit of the BB. Kind of lame.

--

Overall still the same character.

Edit:

Can confirm, Talim will no longer ring herself in situations where you land 66A+B into WNS-A+B for instance. So her ringout consistency is now a lot better. No more really awkward spots where they are not quite close enough to edge, but not far enough away. That nonsense is gone.

Edit2:

Can confirm all of the bug fixes like BT B+K~A+B and such are working as intended. It will track no matter what now, more or less.
 
Last edited:

Thylacine492

[06] Combatant
And there goes my hope for CE6~WNS (K) setups. Technically speaking, she can do it at the wall but with negligible damage in comparison to other wall combos.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #67

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
On Guard Crush of the 2nd hit of CE you CAN in fact, get LH Wind Cannon, but the scaling is massive.
Does 57 dmg on it's own, 65 dmg with WNS B ender, And 74 for the CE ender. Damn.

 

Skiegh

[05] Battler
So a new patch, a new Talim. This is an interesting patch because Talim is mostly unchanged, but everyone else did, as well as some (very) significant universal changes which will have pretty potent gameplay changes for Talim.

Beyond consistency stuff, we have:

66B: Tracks more against whiffed attacks, so it is at least mildly useful as a long range punish. Good, but meh.

SC 66B: Okay this is nice, it's not amazing, but it's nice that she now has a far reaching (non-tracking) mid, which now actually leads to good damage. 66B on it's own leaves them stunned, but you can only hit them with 2A to leave them standing, or the usual grounded stuff (66A+B, 2A+B, 3B). 66BB you can actually combo after now. You can even just do loops with it -- well... loop, I should say. So not bad. Useful for her SC if nothing else.

WR-B: I can feel a lot of people being like "Eh..." on this change, but this thing is now SUPER good. I am very happy with this change, because Talim's WR stuff was not great for quick punishes on things. It's 18 damage now, which is respectable, but the important thing is it now shuts down step for a lot of her key tools after it hits. You can freely do 6A, 6BB, or what has been becoming one of my new normals I've been using a lot: 6K. The reason I like 6K is because it does okay damage, and it also shuts down step after it hits (They can step 6BB to the right, but 6A works). This just gives me a quick 12i Vertical that opens doors for anti-step stuff, which, since Talim lacks a solid long-range tracking mid, gaining high advantage has sort of been my work around lately. Gotta stop those Sophies from 22Bing me all day.

--

Universal stuff:

RE: Now builds less meter, uses a ton more guard gauge, and barely heals guard damage, leaving it to nearly never heal beyond what it used.

So for Talim, this means base Guard Damage (GD for short), is now 19% build when using it raw on neutral, without absorbing anything and stance cancelling as soon as possible.

When absorbing an attack, the build-up of GD immediately ceases, and starts to get healed for each attack absorbed. So if you get hit the moment RE absorbs can take effect, you may only take 11% GD, then start to heal that with each attack, seems to be about 2+% or so per attack. So we're going to be eating a lot of GD for RE canceling, which is... fine for my playstyle, not so fine for others.

GI is now also 12% on whiff and 8% on success, as opposed to healing 8% (it should still be healing 8% on success in my opinion). This means the whole game is going to be way more guard break heavy, as if it wasn't already. Boon for Talim is now her slow and steady method of building GD is going to be essentially unavoidable due to so few ways to remove or recover your guard gauge. So all those GIs people use against Talim's predictable attacks are still going to leave them with worse guard gauge, and any RE is no longer a free 0% guard gauge because of how many times Talim hits people. So she'll be more effective guard damage wise, while also being worse off herself.

--

An aside, most other characters seemed to get buffed, but hopefully nothing too bad. Although I do think she will no longer be able to post-GI RE-stance cancel for free against Ivy because they sped up her A+B. NOw she can only do it... against herself. When are they speeding up Talim's A+B? Hahah.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #69

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
So a new patch, a new Talim. This is an interesting patch because Talim is mostly unchanged, but everyone else did, as well as some (very) significant universal changes which will have pretty potent gameplay changes for Talim.

Beyond consistency stuff, we have:

66B: Tracks more against whiffed attacks, so it is at least mildly useful as a long range punish. Good, but meh.

SC 66B: Okay this is nice, it's not amazing, but it's nice that she now has a far reaching (non-tracking) mid, which now actually leads to good damage. 66B on it's own leaves them stunned, but you can only hit them with 2A to leave them standing, or the usual grounded stuff (66A+B, 2A+B, 3B). 66BB you can actually combo after now. You can even just do loops with it -- well... loop, I should say. So not bad. Useful for her SC if nothing else.

WR-B: I can feel a lot of people being like "Eh..." on this change, but this thing is now SUPER good. I am very happy with this change, because Talim's WR stuff was not great for quick punishes on things. It's 18 damage now, which is respectable, but the important thing is it now shuts down step for a lot of her key tools after it hits. You can freely do 6A, 6BB, or what has been becoming one of my new normals I've been using a lot: 6K. The reason I like 6K is because it does okay damage, and it also shuts down step after it hits (They can step 6BB to the right, but 6A works). This just gives me a quick 12i Vertical that opens doors for anti-step stuff, which, since Talim lacks a solid long-range tracking mid, gaining high advantage has sort of been my work around lately. Gotta stop those Sophies from 22Bing me all day.

--

Universal stuff:

RE: Now builds less meter, uses a ton more guard gauge, and barely heals guard damage, leaving it to nearly never heal beyond what it used.

So for Talim, this means base Guard Damage (GD for short), is now 19% build when using it raw on neutral, without absorbing anything and stance cancelling as soon as possible.

When absorbing an attack, the build-up of GD immediately ceases, and starts to get healed for each attack absorbed. So if you get hit the moment RE absorbs can take effect, you may only take 11% GD, then start to heal that with each attack, seems to be about 2+% or so per attack. So we're going to be eating a lot of GD for RE canceling, which is... fine for my playstyle, not so fine for others.

GI is now also 12% on whiff and 8% on success, as opposed to healing 8% (it should still be healing 8% on success in my opinion). This means the whole game is going to be way more guard break heavy, as if it wasn't already. Boon for Talim is now her slow and steady method of building GD is going to be essentially unavoidable due to so few ways to remove or recover your guard gauge. So all those GIs people use against Talim's predictable attacks are still going to leave them with worse guard gauge, and any RE is no longer a free 0% guard gauge because of how many times Talim hits people. So she'll be more effective guard damage wise, while also being worse off herself.

--

An aside, most other characters seemed to get buffed, but hopefully nothing too bad. Although I do think she will no longer be able to post-GI RE-stance cancel for free against Ivy because they sped up her A+B. NOw she can only do it... against herself. When are they speeding up Talim's A+B? Hahah.
She definitely can RE cancel into WNC vs Ivy's A+B.

Also, god, I wish people would stop saying things like, "this change doesn't hurt MY playstyle but maybe others". To be fair, if you are playing Talim and you DON'T use RE and RE cancelling, you're doing it wrong. And you should almost 100% lose vs characters like Ivy, Asta, Geralt, Sieg, X, Cervantes and so on.

IF... you are still winning in spite of not using RE, it's either because your opponents are not very good players, they simply don't know the Talim matchup, or because you happen to be a God at guessing right every time, lol. The RE nerf isn't the death of Talim by any means, but if she ends up falling to the lower tiers this patch, I would not be very surprised.

As far as 6K goes. The move is kinda bad. It's unsafe, and doesn't knock down. Being at +8 is cool and all, but there's little reason to throw this out when you have 66A and 2B as go-to i16 punishes. and both of those are saaaafe. 2B is +12 on hit and puts you BT. 66A is stance uniterruptible on hit. 6K is miserable by comparison. Maybe if it knocked down on CH, something else I've hoped for since Sc2, it'd have more use.

SC 66BB is a bigger deal than people think right now, but it's also not really a compensation for anything RE related. I'm putting up a video showing the main reason why in a bit. On LH she gets massive damage and potential RO carry now, but again, good luck hitting backstep guard with and i22 SC 66B, lol.

This patch has me upset for other reasons. Like I've been going on and on about how WNC NEEDS to have vertical immunity. But I gave up on that pipe dream and figured "eh they must have their reasons for not doing that" (@Destinizish can vouch for it if he's even on the forums these days)
But they DID do it... for Siegfried of all characters, lol. Like wtf? His side spin stance was already super good and even dodged Talim's horizontal CE at times.

I also mentioned Talim's side step hurtbox before. (For a test, @Skiegh try playing X and stepping in between of Asta's 4AB on block, then try with Talim. Or better yet, have Voldo do Mantis crawl Head towards K, and mash K repeatedly for the donut rolls. Try stepping between them as Astaroth and then as Talim). And again I was like, "Welp it is what it is. Talim gets clipped by launchers sometimes cause her hurtbox is too wide when stepping. Nothing they can do about that"

And they DID. But for Astaroth who had already had a great step, lol. It's mind-blowing tbh. But as always, I'll have to adapt to the changes (or lack thereof) and try to keep from looking fraudulent when playing her. Talim is FAR from unviable currently, but between the system changes (bigger stages anyone?) and the other characters' buffs, I can't say this helped her much.
 

Skiegh

[05] Battler
She definitely can RE cancel into WNC vs Ivy's A+B.
You know, I went in on a read on the numbers and I was wrong. She can still do it. Just goes to show just how god damn slow Ivy's A+B is.

Also, god, I wish people would stop saying things like, "this change doesn't hurt MY playstyle but maybe others". To be fair, if you are playing Talim and you DON'T use RE and RE cancelling, you're doing it wrong. And you should almost 100% lose vs characters like Ivy, Asta, Geralt, Sieg, X, Cervantes and so on.

IF... you are still winning in spite of not using RE, it's either because your opponents are not very good players, they simply don't know the Talim matchup, or because you happen to be a God at guessing right every time, lol. The RE nerf isn't the death of Talim by any means, but if she ends up falling to the lower tiers this patch, I would not be very surprised.
You act as if I don't use it at all. I just don't use it as much as some other Talims. I use it mostly as a player option than a match-up option, Ivy and Asta being exceptions where I'll use it more liberally for obvious reasons. I use it as a post-GI option a decent amount, which I do think was why she was given it in the first place, since she is very easy to GI.

That said, I uh, disagree. RE canceling is just another tool to be utilized, and I don't think it's the end-all be-all of success for Talim, because that would imply that Talim literally had nothing else, which is a gross overstatement, and that's coming from someone who doesn't really think that highly of Talim pre/post patch. Never really put her above mid-tier at best, while some players seem to think she's in top 5, somehow. I don't put her that high because I don't find her threatening. Front-turned, she has no threatening lows or throws, and mediocre guard damage. 8B is the scariest thing you can block against Talim, in my opinion, because she isn't limited to the linearity of her stances, did 9% guard damage, and is +2. That is a big, opinionated side-discussion though.

That all having been said, I do not claim to be a great Talim, and I've said before, and I'll say it again, I would probably be a much better Sophie than a Talim, because I tend to play her like she's a good footsie character.

As far as 6K goes. The move is kinda bad. It's unsafe, and doesn't knock down. Being at +8 is cool and all, but there's little reason to throw this out when you have 66A and 2B as go-to i16 punishes. and both of those are saaaafe. 2B is +12 on hit and puts you BT. 66A is stance uniterruptible on hit. 6K is miserable by comparison. Maybe if it knocked down on CH, something else I've hoped for since Sc2, it'd have more use.
I never said it was good, I just said I liked it, haha. As a whole, I have been trying to avoid stance shifting normals more, and 6K allows me to gain large advantage without relying on stances, which I find are too linear to be throwing out too often. That is the downside to both 66A and 2B -- admittedly, you know too well how much I praise BT Talim. Still, variety is the spice of life, and it helps break the linearity of Talim and confuse people.

SC 66BB is a bigger deal than people think right now, but it's also not really a compensation for anything RE related. I'm putting up a video showing the main reason why in a bit. On LH she gets massive damage and potential RO carry now, but again, good luck hitting backstep guard with and i22 SC 66B, lol.
I admittedly have not experimented with it much. Mostly got caught up in how nice it is to be able to rematch people over and over again.

Still think 66B is too easy to avoid to ever really hit anyone without it being a whiff punish. Wish it were faster so it was a better whiff punish/backstep tool.

I always forget it can lethal hit. Every time it happens I get less damage than I do otherwise because it just surprises me each time. "W-ha-- oh shit, that's right this thing can lethal hit! What do I do!? What's the combo!? I forget, it's been months since I've hit this! **Drops combo**"

I am surprised none of Talims lethal hits have been changed or anything -- they are all so bad, save for one or two. 44A still perplexes me, since the move is not designed at all to crush highs -- again, it's a move designed for a 2D game with extended hurtboxes and hit limbs in a game with no extended hurtboxes. *Shrugs*

This patch has me upset for other reasons. Like I've been going on and on about how WNC NEEDS to have vertical immunity. But I gave up on that pipe dream and figured "eh they must have their reasons for not doing that" (@Destinizish can vouch for it if he's even on the forums these days)
But they DID do it... for Siegfried of all characters, lol. Like wtf? His side spin stance was already super good and even dodged Talim's horizontal CE at times.
You're never going to get that. Stop. Hahaha.

I wish too, but it won't happen. I wish I could WNC over step in situations for varied options.

I also mentioned Talim's side step hurtbox before. (For a test, @Skiegh try playing X and stepping in between of Asta's 4AB on block, then try with Talim. Or better yet, have Voldo do Mantis crawl Head towards K, and mash K repeatedly for the donut rolls. Try stepping between them as Astaroth and then as Talim). And again I was like, "Welp it is what it is. Talim gets clipped by launchers sometimes cause her hurtbox is too wide when stepping. Nothing they can do about that"
You know, I always felt like I got clipped by verticals a lot. Since I mostly use Talim against other players and just use other characters for lab work, I wonder if that's why.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Moderator
  • #71

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
You act as if I don't use it at all. I just don't use it as much as some other Talims. I use it mostly as a player option than a match-up option, Ivy and Asta being exceptions where I'll use it more liberally for obvious reasons. I use it as a post-GI option a decent amount, which I do think was why she was given it in the first place, since she is very easy to GI.

That said, I uh, disagree. RE canceling is just another tool to be utilized, and I don't think it's the end-all be-all of success for Talim, because that would imply that Talim literally had nothing else, which is a gross overstatement, and that's coming from someone who doesn't really think that highly of Talim pre/post patch. Never really put her above mid-tier at best, while some players seem to think she's in top 5, somehow. I don't put her that high because I don't find her threatening. Front-turned, she has no threatening lows or throws, and mediocre guard damage. 8B is the scariest thing you can block against Talim, in my opinion, because she isn't limited to the linearity of her stances, did 9% guard damage, and is +2. That is a big, opinionated side-discussion though.

That all having been said, I do not claim to be a great Talim, and I've said before, and I'll say it again, I would probably be a much better Sophie than a Talim, because I tend to play her like she's a good footsie character.
Whether you are a great Talim or not is missing the point of what bugs me about that line of thinking. My point is, this is a nerf to Talim period. RE & RE cancelling is important to her matchup spread. Does she have other good tools? Absolutely. Can you just get in the old fashioned way of blocking and moving and hoping for a whiff? Technically yes, you can. But it's still a fact that these tasks are clearly harder to accomplish if RE isn't utilized. Not to mention some of the stages being made bigger, and how good defensive movement is, and Talim having the worst neutral in the cast, etc.

It's not just you though. People in the Talim Discord were saying the same exact things you did. But as I said to them, this isn't a playstyle nerf. This is a nerf in general. Talim is factually weaker with the nerf in play. It's not the end-all-be-all for her, as I said before, but man, I feel like the only thing keeping Geralt vs Talim from being a 7-3 matchup or worse, is RE and its functions in neutral game. Ivy throwing shit at you that pushes you back to start? Astaroth just throwing grab/bullrush mixups at you? Siegfried just doing aGA and Rising B from mid screen? It's a very important part of her competitive viability as she is currently.

Now granted, she CAN still use RE and RE cancel, but the issue I have, is with the fact that even when used in the right places, you're not recovering much guard damage back for it. And given that Talim is designed to use her RE more than your average character, (the devs say this as well), it's no surprise that this change is more negative for her.

You're never going to get that. Stop. Hahaha.

I wish too, but it won't happen. I wish I could WNC over step in situations for varied options.



You know, I always felt like I got clipped by verticals a lot. Since I mostly use Talim against other players and just use other characters for lab work, I wonder if that's why.
Yes, that's probably why. And hey I said the same thing "We won't get WNC fixed. May as well give up on it". And yet they gave that exact thing to a different character who needed it less, tbh. So what can ya do?
 

Skiegh

[05] Battler
Whether you are a great Talim or not is missing the point of what bugs me about that line of thinking. My point is, this is a nerf to Talim period. RE & RE cancelling is important to her matchup spread. Does she have other good tools? Absolutely. Can you just get in the old fashioned way of blocking and moving and hoping for a whiff? Technically yes, you can. But it's still a fact that these tasks are clearly harder to accomplish if RE isn't utilized. Not to mention some of the stages being made bigger, and how good defensive movement is, and Talim having the worst neutral in the cast, etc.

It's not just you though. People in the Talim Discord were saying the same exact things you did. But as I said to them, this isn't a playstyle nerf. This is a nerf in general. Talim is factually weaker with the nerf in play. It's not the end-all-be-all for her, as I said before, but man, I feel like the only thing keeping Geralt vs Talim from being a 7-3 matchup or worse, is RE and its functions in neutral game. Ivy throwing shit at you that pushes you back to start? Astaroth just throwing grab/bullrush mixups at you? Siegfried just doing aGA and Rising B from mid screen? It's a very important part of her competitive viability as she is currently.

Now granted, she CAN still use RE and RE cancel, but the issue I have, is with the fact that even when used in the right places, you're not recovering much guard damage back for it. And given that Talim is designed to use her RE more than your average character, (the devs say this as well), it's no surprise that this change is more negative for her.
She absolutely got nerfed by the universal changes, I never made arguments to the contrary. However, I am not selfish enough to dislike changes for a universal mechanic due to it effecting my character above all others. Should she be compensated in someway for that? Possibly, sure, but I also think Talim would be better off getting buffs elsewhere. And as I mentioned, in this patch, guard build is now up for everyone, which also means Talim's very lethal guard break potential is also going to be more abusable. Personally, I think Guard Damage is out of control in this game, especially now.

I think RE cancel is a gimmicky maneuver, that has a very annoying risk-reward game tied to it, all too akin to a divekick in any 2D fighter. Where you put your fate of success in the hands of your opponent, because you know it's harder for the opponent to stop it than it is for you to keep doing it. For me personally, I would much rather Talim get something else for her kit, than for RE-cancel to become as/more obnoxious. RE-cancel is still strong, and it will remain to be strong, it just now carries a cost to go along with the risk.

Now if they actually gave this game ways to prevent/recover guard gauge which was reasonable to do, then Talim's RE-cancel nerf would just make all the more sense. You temporarily burn gauge to get back to neutral and hopefully stave off the gauge damage there.