The Landslide
[13] Hero
That's precisely the opposite of what I'm saying!
The Athiest Thread
- Thread starter ArcticKomodo
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Dragonfall
[10] Knight
Both my parents are scientists so I was brought up without any notion of religion. When I became old enough to learn about religions, I find them utterly ludicrous.
Belief without evidence is not a virtue.
Belief without evidence is not a virtue.
UnseenWombat
[14] Master
No, to be perfectly honest, I'm happy the threads are performing their intended purposes. The Christian thread is a place for people who are interested to post questions about Christianity and discuss it if they're so inclined, and when they do, I'll join back in. And this is a troll thread, just like it started out being, 30 minutes after I posted the Christian thread.
You may find things easier to understand if you stop projecting yourself onto other people. Just because to you this is (or was) a "debate" that you have to "win," doesn't mean that it's that to me or anyone else.
It doesn't bother me a bit. What does bother me is the misconceptions and misinformation that are prevalent in this thread. Someone who is actually interested in learning may look at your posts, and if they can get past all the insults and blustering mockery, they may come away with the notion that Christianity is completely indefensible. It's not, as I've shown. And the fact that instead of actually continuing the discussion you've decided to just post memes and attempt to troll does nothing to help your position. So... thanks for making my job easier. ;)
---
Back on track, a question for discussion.
What is the point of it all? What meaning do you derive from life if you don't think you're going to live forever? Some people have answered my previous question about why they do good even though they don't believe in an absolute standard of good, but this question is, "why do anything?" Given that you're going to die, what is the point of all this striving?
Is it to make the world a better place for those around you or those who come after you? Why bother? They're not you, so you won't experience that benefit. I guess the molecules that make you will return to the soil, grow up into the grass and be eaten by cows or rabbits and assimilated into a new person someday, but the thing you call "you" just disappears into the void. No matter what great things you accomplish, all the future (and present) people you're benefiting are, just like you, going to wink out of existence in the same way. And after they do all the striving that, granted, you've made a little easier through your work and sacrifice, they'll be gone just like you and all that will amount to nothing. And the other question is why are some things good, and other things bad anyway? If I hurt someone, or even kill them, we all come to the same end anyway, right? What difference does it make how we get there? Whether me in jail for hitting some guy I don't like with a hammer, or him living the rest of his life as a vegetable?
I guess I am getting back to the same question. Why bother to do good if there is no standard of good to begin with? Just the cold hard truth of death and the universe.
What is important about life? When it's gone, nothing you ever did will matter. Even if you accomplish the most important things and leave a legacy that people will remember for generations, (which very few people manage to do), no matter what you do, nothing will save even those future people from coming to the same inevitable end that you come to, (as though that mattered to you). I guess through scientific advancements maybe you might extend their lifespans, but for what purpose? Just so they can strive longer until they die?
I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that for the most part, Atheists just try to avoid thinking about this question and live life in the present. Throwing their entire body and soul into building sandcastles that are going to be washed away with the next wave. You work so hard, struggle and sacrifice and for what? So that someone else will reap the benefits. I guess if you focus all your attention on the present and never think about the future, maybe you could derive some meaning from the things you do, but for me, if I thought this was all there is, it would drive me mad. Death just makes life absurd and pointless.
Dragonfall
[10] Knight
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
UnseenWombat
[14] Master
Sigh. I guess there is no intelligent discussion to be had here. Troll on.
JDub
Mmm. Pie.
Wow. I may attack you're beliefs but not your right to state them. Territory you're pretty close to treading on. You're now wearing your frustration on your sleeve. Good! But that is a low blow and I know you know better. If someone made an Atheist thread first a Christian thread would have soon followed. Not out of trolling but out of a sense of equality and fairness.
IMHO all you have shown is how easy it is for fervor to trample reason. It still doesn't change my opinion of you overall, or diminish my appreciation for you presence overall. But, on this one, tiny, meaningless subject we will always remain at odds. Maybe enough discussion will desensitize us to our difference. I don't know. But I know being a Christian or an Atheist doesn't really effect what kind of person someone is overall. You can make assumptions that without a God we have no basis for morals or values. It makes it easier to devalue our ideas if their coming from Godless Heathens. But the sad fact to me is that you need God for morals and values. Maybe, if the threat of hell or the bribe of heaven is necessary for you to justify being a decent human, you're not really a decent human. But I give you more credit than that. I think you're a decent person regardless of belief. A belief that is relative to the traditions and cultures that you just happened to be born into. Us Atheist's actually beat all odds and should have pride in doing so. But it's a pride that in daily life we have to guard closely. Do me a favor. Start telling people you're an Atheist. See for yourself. Let me know how just a month of it feels to you and then multiply that by a lifetime. It wouldn't hurt to see how virtuous your fellow Christian's seem when they see you as an outsider or worse. A cohort of the devil. Or a blind lost soul. As if the conclusions you come to have no value and are derived from either ignorance or a "tainted spirit".
If you don't believe in evolution please stop reaping the benefits of evolutionary science. No more flue shots or vaccines. No genetic testing for the potential for cancers. If you don't believe it stop wasting resources and let God take care of you.
If you don't believe in one science you're discrediting them all because they are all derived from the same basic principles. The Scientific Method. The same processes that proved gravity, the law of thermal dynamics, relativity, also mapped the Universe using background radiation (microwaves). It also provided you with the computers you post on. The cars you drive in, the cell phones you prolly dick off on. Cast it all aside. They are all results of the same processes and formulas that continue to discredit your God more and more.
Wandrian
I don't know.
Maybe someday more of the atheists will realize toting the "I R ATHITSE PLZ TROLL ME" sign around with them is a bad idea. The ones that do realize it's a bad idea, more power to ya. Same for all the religious fundies and the more level-headed believers.
...Oh dear. Epiphany. THEY'RE ALL SCRUBS!
Sett
[14] Master
So much TL:DR in this thread, so boring.
I'll just leave this here.
I'll just leave this here.
Dragonfall
[10] Knight
What's there to discuss? You don't believe in most gods that's ever existed in literature. I just don't believe in one more.
UnseenWombat
[14] Master
Hey, I'm sorry if I offended you. From my perspective though, the fact that there sprung up an atheist thread so soon after I posted mine seemed a lot like someone was trying to be a smart alec. I realize you've come to your conclusions about the nature of the world honestly, and I don't think you personally are trolling. I don't think, like the "hippy article" I posted said, that Atheists all can see the obvious existence of God and are just being contrary because they're "jerks."
Yes, and I know you've had a rough time with people judging you for your beliefs. That's not how they should behave. They should be, instead, trying to rationally explain to you why it's not such bunk as you think it is rather than just trying to shout you down. (As you can see from this thread though, both sides are guilty of it. Not that that makes it right.)
No, I'm not a decent human. I think apart from God, I'd be a really bad guy. That's one of the main tenets of Christianity, that people are, by nature, bad. What is important is the choices we make and how we try to change that underlying nature.
"We see only the results which a man's choices make out of his raw material. But God does not judge him on the raw material at all, but on what he has done with it. Most of the man's psychological make-up is probably due to his body: when his body dies all that will fall off him, and the real central man, the thing that chose, that made the best or the worst out of this material, will stand naked. All sorts of nice things which we thought our own, but which were really due to a good digestion, will fall off some of us: all sorts of nasty things which were due to complexes or bad health will fall off others. We shall then, for the first tune, see every one as he really was. There will be surprises.
And that leads on to my second point. People often think of Christian morality as a kind of bargain in which God says, "If you keep a lot of rules I'll reward you, and if you don't I'll do the other thing." I do not think that is the best way of looking at it. I would much rather say that every time you make a choice you are turning the central part of you, the part of you that chooses, into something a little different from what it was before. And taking your life as a whole, with all your innumerable choices, all your life long you are slowly turning this central thing either into a heavenly creature or into a hellish creature: either into a creature that is in harmony with God, and with other creatures, and with itself, or else into one that is in a state of war and hatred with God, and with its fellow-creatures, and with itself. "
I do think there is some ignorance you could purge from yourself, not to be judgmental or insulting, but perfectly honest. Some of the things you have said about Christianity show that you don't fully understand it. The way people have treated you for it is not right, and certainly not Christian, and I'd like to help you get a better understanding, if you're open to listening.
Wait, wat? Where did I say that? There was a time that I didn't believe in evolution. I thought it was contrary to the other things I believe, but now I see it's not.
Was that meant for me or are you talking to someone else? Because I never said in this thread that I didn't believe in any of the sciences.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
IS IT REALLY THAT MEANINGLESS IN TERMS OF WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT SOMEONE? IT CAN GIVE INSIGHT INTO HOW THEY SOLVE PROBLEMS IN GENERAL.
LOOK AT ALL THESE IDIOTS WHO THINK I'M STUPID BECAUSE I DON'T TAKE CHRISTIANITY SERIOUSLY LOLLLLL. YEAH, I'M SURE THEY'RE VERY BRIGHT INDIVIDUALS.
JDub
Mmm. Pie.
Maybe he was trolling. You'll have to ask him. Either way, it's only fair regardless of the original intent. But it was inevitable. And as I said, if Atheists posted a thread first, I'm sure Christians would have followed. It's only natural.
Soo...no. You will not walk a mile in my shoes. You won't even try 30days of telling people you're an Atheist. Just to see where I'm coming from. I was a Baptist Youth Minister. I've walked a mile in your shoes.
There is no rational explanation for a magical entity playing chess with another magical entity for our souls. There is no rational explanation for what the end game for God vs Satan is. God started the Universe and put people in a Garden. Set a rule then didn't give them the knowledge to know breaking a rule is wrong. Kicked them out. They had kids who had kids with their kids and somehow we didn't inbreed ourselves out of existence. But from this inbred race of people comes the need for their Creator to wipe them all out with a flood, except for one family who then inbred some more. Kicking his creations out of Paradise and drowning all but a few of his creations and it still didn't pan out. Drastic times call for drastic measures so he comes to Earth as his own son born of a virgin. He needed to forgive us for being what he created so he instituted a "suicide by cop" scenario. We kill him, without knowing that killing him was all part of his master plan of enabling himself to forgive us. Or, if you don't believe in the Holy Trinity, we kill God's son to enable God's forgiveness. All this so we can either spend an eternity with him or in hell. Once again, to what end?
You should read up on the social behavior of animals number one. Many creatures of this planet do what is "right" by their own kind. No, they don't read the Bible. And if you are truly bad then everything else is a charade to stay in God's favor. I didn't know God liked charades.
I almost died. Thought for certain. Plowed a motorcycle into the back of a parked landscaping trailer. I only had time to think "This is it" before getting knocked silly. Kind of disappointing. Didn't have time to reflect or say goodbye. Just "This is it".
You can establish habits without God. You can make a decision without God. This is basic behavioral modification based on stimuli. Substitute winning God's favor with having pride in your own personal integrity and the end result will be the same.
Christians who don't behave in a way you condone aren't any more or less Christian than yourself. You're pretty quick to toss fellow Christians under the bus for faltering.
Yeah, that last part is an after thought...but all Science adheres to the same rules. If you discredit one you discredit them all. Being since it operates on evidence. Faith doesn't. That's why Creationist's have a hard time when they try to take on evolution in the courts. Courts rule based on empirical evidence as well. Something Creationist's can't produce. But for most Christian's faith isn't enough. That's why they try to prove it. But if it's proven, therefore known, it's not faith. Knowledge is the destruction of faith. That's why faith discourages knowledge. Personal knowledge, and scientific knowledge. If you know who you are, and know you are a truly good person, faith can't tell you you're not therefore can't offer itself as the solution for being the bad person it says you are. It's no different than marketing today. You don't look good unless you buy my product. You have flaws that my product will hide or fix. What? I didn't know I was so flawed but the guy selling me the fix says I am so I must need his product.
I'm not so sure about that. I'm pretty sure a lot of believers compartmentalize their beliefs. They have to really. There's no other way around the cognitive dissonance.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
I TEND TO USE INDUCTIVE THINKING. I COME TO CONCLUSIONS BASED ON INCIDENTAL KNOWLEDGE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
LOOKING AT THEISM, COMBINED WITH MANY OTHER ASPECTS OF A PERSON’S BEHAVIOUR, I CAN SOMETIMES KNOW THINGS THAT I NORMALLY SHOULDN'T. FUNNY STUFF.
BUT YOU’RE RIGHT. A MORE SERIOUS APPROACH SHOULD BE TO REASON FROM THE INSIDE-OUT.
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
"Why bother to do good if there is no standard of good to begin with?"
Why does there have to be an objective standard for morality? Why can't we as human beings have the courage to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong? Besides, isn't that what people do anyway? Everyone has some disagreement about what ought to be and what shouldn't be.
Laws provide us with loose guidelines to which we should follow; basic things like don't hurt or kill people, don't steal from people, etc. These "morals" are simply a natural effect of humans living in big groups; villages, tribes, cities, and whole nations. These rules serve the community, help make it run efficiently, and in the long run, is better for everyone.
Nietzsche had an interesting theory on this one. He believed that there was no such thing as a selfless act. He believed that even helping others had the selfish benefit of making you feel better about yourself. People evolved this community-first mentality out of necessity. It's likely that humans wouldn't have reached this point in civilization had it not been for morality. Not to mention the fact that if you get a reputation for being a helping hand in the community, people are likely to help you in return. You scratch my back, I scratch yours.
You see this same behavior among primates. One individual will pick out dirt and knots and flees from the other one's back, and then take turns. I noticed this went I went to the Zoo to see the spider monkeys.
Just remember, "good" has no objective standard that is unwavering. What was "good" at one time in history may not be considered good today. You notice that when mankind went through huge technological changes in shirt periods of time, morality shifted as well. Think about old fashioned American family values compared to the more "modern" families of today. Majority-accepted morality can change drastically in just a few generations. Lifestyles change, technology changes, culture changes, and so does morality.
Even most Christian churches have undergone changes in accepted morality. The old testament god was really scary, you didn't fuck with him, you didn't cross him, you kept your nose clean. The new testament god in comparison reminds me of the "Buddy Christ" from the movie "Dogma". Now, it's okay if you sin, just ask for forgiveness and have a repentant heart, and the friendly Jesus will forgive you.
Morality is a subjective reality that adapts to the time and place in which it exists.
Why does there have to be an objective standard for morality? Why can't we as human beings have the courage to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong? Besides, isn't that what people do anyway? Everyone has some disagreement about what ought to be and what shouldn't be.
Laws provide us with loose guidelines to which we should follow; basic things like don't hurt or kill people, don't steal from people, etc. These "morals" are simply a natural effect of humans living in big groups; villages, tribes, cities, and whole nations. These rules serve the community, help make it run efficiently, and in the long run, is better for everyone.
Nietzsche had an interesting theory on this one. He believed that there was no such thing as a selfless act. He believed that even helping others had the selfish benefit of making you feel better about yourself. People evolved this community-first mentality out of necessity. It's likely that humans wouldn't have reached this point in civilization had it not been for morality. Not to mention the fact that if you get a reputation for being a helping hand in the community, people are likely to help you in return. You scratch my back, I scratch yours.
You see this same behavior among primates. One individual will pick out dirt and knots and flees from the other one's back, and then take turns. I noticed this went I went to the Zoo to see the spider monkeys.
Just remember, "good" has no objective standard that is unwavering. What was "good" at one time in history may not be considered good today. You notice that when mankind went through huge technological changes in shirt periods of time, morality shifted as well. Think about old fashioned American family values compared to the more "modern" families of today. Majority-accepted morality can change drastically in just a few generations. Lifestyles change, technology changes, culture changes, and so does morality.
Even most Christian churches have undergone changes in accepted morality. The old testament god was really scary, you didn't fuck with him, you didn't cross him, you kept your nose clean. The new testament god in comparison reminds me of the "Buddy Christ" from the movie "Dogma". Now, it's okay if you sin, just ask for forgiveness and have a repentant heart, and the friendly Jesus will forgive you.
Morality is a subjective reality that adapts to the time and place in which it exists.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
I AGREE. PERSONALLY, I WANT TO MASTURBATE AND FUCK IN PUBLIC, BUT THAT'S ILLEGAL.
BULLSHIT!
BULLSHIT!
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
Let me clarify my position on the nature VS nurture debate.
Both are absolutely critical, no doubt. On the genetics/nature side, you must be born with the proper equipment to have sound reason. A person with an extra chromosome such as down-syndrome carries a genetic defect that directly affects their mind/brain. Not to mention there is some plausible correlation to inherited intelligence, from your parents of course. +1 for nature.
On the nurture side, let me just tell you a story. The details in my memory are fuzzy, but the gist of it is still intact. I read an article about a rural family back in the 1930's that had an "illegitimate" child so to speak. Long story short, the grandparents took custody of her and locked the poor child by chains in a dungeon/cellar for the first 16 years of her life. The never talked to her, they never had physical contact with her, they never bathed her. They fed her pig slop, never cleaned the shit and piss out of her "cell", and basically demonstrated in my opinion the biggest act of cruelty that I have ever heard of.
The authorities found out, rescued the 16 year old girl, and threw the grandparents in prison. She went to a psychiatric facility and shrinks tried their best to help her. Despite their best efforts, she could not learn to speak, communicate, or act in any way that was considered both human and civilized. She was, by all intensive purposes, a brainless animal. Her mind had never received the proper stimulus necessary to develop. It makes me tear just typing about it.
So, it's +1 for nurture. Both nature and nurture are absolutely critical for becoming what we are now.
Both are absolutely critical, no doubt. On the genetics/nature side, you must be born with the proper equipment to have sound reason. A person with an extra chromosome such as down-syndrome carries a genetic defect that directly affects their mind/brain. Not to mention there is some plausible correlation to inherited intelligence, from your parents of course. +1 for nature.
On the nurture side, let me just tell you a story. The details in my memory are fuzzy, but the gist of it is still intact. I read an article about a rural family back in the 1930's that had an "illegitimate" child so to speak. Long story short, the grandparents took custody of her and locked the poor child by chains in a dungeon/cellar for the first 16 years of her life. The never talked to her, they never had physical contact with her, they never bathed her. They fed her pig slop, never cleaned the shit and piss out of her "cell", and basically demonstrated in my opinion the biggest act of cruelty that I have ever heard of.
The authorities found out, rescued the 16 year old girl, and threw the grandparents in prison. She went to a psychiatric facility and shrinks tried their best to help her. Despite their best efforts, she could not learn to speak, communicate, or act in any way that was considered both human and civilized. She was, by all intensive purposes, a brainless animal. Her mind had never received the proper stimulus necessary to develop. It makes me tear just typing about it.
So, it's +1 for nurture. Both nature and nurture are absolutely critical for becoming what we are now.
TerminatorCortez
[10] Knight
Well believe what you want to believe. Like honestly, I couldn't care less about other peoples beliefs. To avoid trouble, religion should be kept personal because so many things contradict each other.
I do feel for the atheist, it most be annoying to hear theist babbling about God and how their religion is better...
I do feel for the atheist, it most be annoying to hear theist babbling about God and how their religion is better...
Sett
[14] Master
So you could care less. Which means you care at least a bit.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
WHAT DID I TELL YOU. THESE RELIGIOUS FREAKS ARE BAD AT MAKING SENSE.
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