Tier Discussion

[Slade]

I would like to introduce you to Raphael lol...

At least Raphael has good movement and one of the best 2As in the game. He actually fares better at ultra-close range than Algol does.

^.^

It technically is the best stepkill in terms of damage and range. However it's also unsafe on block, easily baited if used as a stepkill, and is a huge waste of meter.

 

[ChaosK]

Take your pick. Either his stepkill is a joke or he has the best stepkiller in the game. I won't let you get away with both :P (Yes metercosts make a move worse)

 

[Slade]

Take your pick. Either his stepkill is a joke or he has the best stepkiller in the game. I won't let you get away with both :P (Yes metercosts make a move worse)

It's the best stepkill in the game if you're playing in Training Mode with infinite meter on.

 

[ChaosK]

So i guess having the best stepkiller (even for heavy meter costs), raises his stepkiller game to above joke level, agreed?

 

[Age_of_Truth]

PS : and yes I do agree that Mitsu needs a serious nerf. Most of S tier needs nerfs IMO.

Yeah. The lower characters would seem relatively less weak if the top few weren't so strong.

Mitsu 6B8 drives me crazy. Playing with or against this character is not remotely fun imo. i13, -2 on block, guard burst damage, 32 damage. If this did 12 damage it would still be one of the best moves in the game. Certain other moves could do with being less safe (e.g. 22A, 4A). Not convinced 44A needs so much damage either.


Alpha could do with a damage reduction. Also if he misses JFT, JFT combo, it would be nice if he were heavily punishable as a result. Atm if you tech, he still escapes serious punishment. Also 33B could be -14 or so.

Cervantes could do with more blockstun on aB, and aB needs a damage nerf. Or just be a slower attack. 3B -14 perhaps.

Viola's buffs were bizarre. Character is very complicated and it might be a while before we see the most OP stuff. Maybe hitstun on 6B+K could be reduced so launch combos are not possible during oki mix-ups.

Algol I haven't played against much, but he could do with being less safe in return for the damage he deals.

 

[Slade]

So i guess having the best stepkiller (even for heavy meter costs), raises his stepkiller game to above joke level, agreed?

Like I said, using his CE as a stepkill is pretty much a joke. It's the best damage and range for a move that can catch step, but it's utterly impractical because if they block it, you just wasted a bar of meter, and he has better ways to combo into it. Algol has decent ways of preventing opponents from simply stepping constantly at mid range without blocking with slow moves like 22A and 33ABK, but they're too slow to use in most situations where the opponent is at a slight disadvantage. His best "stepkill" is forcing the opponent to come out of step to block 22A, which leaves both players at neutral frames. Step-TC moves like Xiba's or Hilde's 22Bs are a real nuisance for Algol because it completely limits his options to 2A.

Algol is kind of like Alpha Patroklos, where he's very linear but his strength on the vertical axis helps make up for it (although Alpha Pat is stronger in that regard).

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention, Algol has one of the shortest throw ranges in the game, meaning throws aren't a very practical way for him to catch steppers, either.

Mitsu 6B8 drives me crazy. Playing with or against this character is not remotely fun imo. i13, -2 on block, guard burst damage, 32 damage. If this did 12 damage it would still be one of the best moves in the game.

I find 1B much more annoying than 6B8, to be honest. Any TC move will crush 6B8. 6B8 only serves to punish moves that are AA punishable to begin with.

 

[Azazel]

Hilde low tier? BUAHAHAHA, seriously? God! the amount of ignorance about Hilde is too damn high.

 

[Slade]

Hilde low tier? BUAHAHAHA, seriously? God! the amount of ignorance about Hilde is too damn high.

I agree, Hilde is not low tier and should be banned again.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

Hilde seems good. She has powerful horizontal Mids, and 22B though risky can avoid all kinds of attacks or setups for big damage without using meter. She also has good pokes from close range like 2A and 66K. Good throws as well. And C1A can be used in launch combos to RO or wall splat.

She'll be hard to gauge properly until a truly outstanding Hilde player emerges.

 

[Azazel]

I agree, Hilde is not low tier and should be banned again.

ehmmm...next time I'll just shut it :(

 

[b4k4]

Alpha could do with a damage reduction. Also if he misses JFT, JFT combo, it would be nice if he were heavily punishable as a result. Atm if you tech, he still escapes serious punishment. Also 33B could be -14 or so.

Why should the player be penalized further for missing damage on what are already some of the hardest to execute combos in the game? Also, can't punish? I've been reemed for this a few times... spacing dependent I guess?

I agree he may need tweaks, but making 33B -14 is not a solution. He relies heavily on this move and already has one of the most limited move sets in the game. If you're going to go after 33B, you'll probably also want to go after Omega 66B, Nightmare 66B, and Patroklos 66B. Nerfing twister damage might be more reasonable.

Viola's buffs were bizarre. Character is very complicated and it might be a while before we see the most OP stuff. Maybe hitstun on 6B+K could be reduced so launch combos are not possible during oki mix-ups.

The idea of a Viola damage buff terrifies me.

My page 3, pre 1.02, "I told you so" quote lol.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

Why should the player be penalized further for missing damage on what are already some of the hardest to execute combos in the game? Also, can't punish? I've been reemed for this a few times... spacing dependent I guess?

I agree he may need tweaks, but making 33B -14 is not a solution. He relies heavily on this move and already has one of the most limited move sets in the game. If you're going to go after 33B, you'll probably also want to go after Omega 66B, Nightmare 66B, and Patroklos 66B. Nerfing twister damage might be more reasonable.



My page 3, pre 1.02, "I told you so" quote lol.

If your opponent techs following a failed double JFT, you are put at -13 and mid-range, allowing for very little or no punishment for most of the cast. If you got 'reemed', maybe you forgot to block? The point is that you might as well go for this combo every time, because it's giant damage and it doesn't matter much if you miss.

33B is a tech crouching launcher that is completely safe. He can spam it from neutral using 2363B or use built-in sidestep with 33_99B. IMO any character that can spam his main launcher as a legitimate tactic needs looking into. Wouldn't be so much of a problem if the damage weren't so high.

 

[Slade]

33B is a tech crouching launcher that is completely safe. He can spam it from neutral using 2363B or use built-in sidestep with 33_99B. IMO any character that can spam his main launcher as a legitimate tactic needs looking into. Wouldn't be so much of a problem if the damage weren't so high.

Still, you shouldn't be blocking 33B, you should be stepping it and punishing. Alpha Pat's antisteps really aren't all that scary.

 

[Sett]

Hilde's a thorn in my Elysium's side. Think the game just trolls me but making me Hilde for 4 of the 6 rounds I played.

(How easy is Hilde to learn anyway? I really got to get her down.)

 

[Azazel]

Hilde's a thorn in my Elysium's side. Think the game just trolls me but making me Hilde for 4 of the 6 rounds I played.

(How easy is Hilde to learn anyway? I really got to get her down.)

She is one of the hardest to learn.

 

[MntT77]

Hilde is easier to learn than she was in SC4, but still difficult compared to other characters. (Speaking of Elysium, I need to learn Ivy better...)

 

[Maxou]

My thoughts on this:
-Remove all tracking from QI B. That move is good enough as it is, it shouldn't track like it does, as it makes QI A completely useless anyways. QI K seems to have much less tracking, especially to the left side. I'm not sure if they could change it without causing whiffing issues.
-Algol's 66B is fine as it is. At -4, standard AA/BBs will beat all his options besides crouch/sidestep or the hugely unsafe 623B. Compared to Pyrrha Ω's or Patroklos's 66Bs, it's nothing (both are -2 on block, Ω's hits grounded and tracks to one side, both give 70-80 meterless on NH). Also, it's only about 40 damage on hit with 3B combo, and this combo gives a poor oki situation anyways due to the knockback of grounded 3B. It's also completely linear with no tracking to either side.
-FC 8B BE was already nerfed in air combos in 1.03. Algol's biggest damage options already require landing 44B, which is i27 and linear. Coupled with the fact that he has some of the worst meter building ability out of the entire cast, his damage output is about on par with other characters. Of course there's the free meter when the opponent reaches game point, but I think that's an awful mechanic and should've been removed to begin with.

Algol also has plenty of other weaknesses that prevent him from being "S" tier (i.e. greatly above the rest of the cast in a way that lower tier characters have no chance of competing). For one, his stepkill is a joke. All his options are either too slow, unsafe, or short ranged. In addition to that his own movement is probably the worst in the game. He can't control space nearly as well as he could in IV.

- Qi K has very good tracking actually... Qi B is not "that" much of a problem.
- 66B being -4 is insane. Yes BB/AA can interrupt most of the things he does afterwards, but what if he backsteps... And meterless combo is not that important after 66B, it's the insane damage of this move with BE that is problematic.
- FC 8B BE was nerfed, well they need to nerf it MORE.
- he has not the "worst meter building ability out of the entire cast"... And his damage is waaaay over the charts actually.

Well we disagree entirely on the character I think. Algol being "slow" or massively unsafe is a legend IMO.

 

[b4k4]

If your opponent techs following a failed double JFT, you are put at -13 and mid-range, allowing for very little or no punishment for most of the cast. If you got 'reemed', maybe you forgot to block? The point is that you might as well go for this combo every time, because it's giant damage and it doesn't matter much if you miss.

33B is a tech crouching launcher that is completely safe. He can spam it from neutral using 2363B or use built-in sidestep with 33_99B. IMO any character that can spam his main launcher as a legitimate tactic needs looking into. Wouldn't be so much of a problem if the damage weren't so high.

Slade pretty much nailed it. 33B is a safe mid, rewarding on hit and very rewarding on CH. What exactly is scaring you about stepping these Alpha players...? bA? 22AA and 33A are somewhat threatening if he has meter, but that is a lot of meter to burn for relatively little damage. He's got a definite, exploitable weakness in his linearity. I can think of a number of characters with tools that are equally as rewarding and difficult to punish on block.

 

[Kalas]

I think what makes the Top Tiers (characters like Mitsu, Alpha, Viola, Omega, Algol) so strong are not the tools they have, but more the damage they deal very easily. There are some moves where I think Namco rolled the dice to determine the damage because it seems so absurd and out of order sometimes.
I don't wanna go too much into detail now, but if there's ever gonna be another patch, I will be hoping for a damage adjustment for some characters.

 

[Noregrets]

Why should the player be penalized further for missing damage on what are already some of the hardest to execute combos in the game? Also, can't punish? I've been reemed for this a few times... spacing dependent I guess?

I agree he may need tweaks, but making 33B -14 is not a solution. He relies heavily on this move and already has one of the most limited move sets in the game. If you're going to go after 33B, you'll probably also want to go after Omega 66B, Nightmare 66B, and Patroklos 66B. Nerfing twister damage might be more reasonable.

If his move set is so limited then there is a problem with aPat from a design standpoint. Then again, we should have already acknowledged this with him being so under-represented even though he is the best character in the game.

I don't see the resemblance between aPat's 33B and other characters 66B. aPat's 33B can be performed after a quick step, making it more effective for whiff punishes than those other moves.