Tier Discussion

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ChaosK

[13] Hero
I think ezio definitely has some stuff going for him. Very good frametrap in the form of 3B, very good whiffpunisher with 4B, can work from long range, very good hitconfirmable BE and a nice CE.
Imo thats enough to join the (lower) mid tier.
 

Force-Destruct

[10] Knight
Ezio's only real downside is proper non CH, meter-less, wall-less damage, aside from that and that his launcher is kind of ass, he's fine.

The reason why I say he doesn't have the proper non CH damage is because his meter-less punishment WITHOUT meter is pretty weak (at the most he can get about 55-ish damage) With meter, he's solid (75+damage i15 punish anyone?) His wall combos are fairly strong (about 110 damage no meter) and his CE is a strong-ass 90 i13 attack that also has a Clean Hit A property.

It's rather unfortunate that he lacks in the meter-less damage, otherwise, he'd be high tier
 

KingAce

HERMITISM
This isn't much of a traditional tier list...just a general idea of where I think the game is balance wise.

Top
Alpha, Viola, Astaroth, Omega, Pyrrha, Cerv, Mitsu
High
NM, Algol, Maxi, Yoshimitsu, Patroklos, Voldo, Xiba
Mid
Leixia, Ivy, Siegfried, Ezio, Tira, Hilde
Low
Aeon, Zwei, Raph, Dampierre
 

PastaManROFL

[08] Mercenary
I'll take a stab: (based on Paragon's with my own tweaks and Devil Jin)

(In order from best to worst)
S: Alpha Pat, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Pyrrha Omega, Algol*
A: Viola, Nightmare, Astaroth, Pyrrha, Natsu, Patroklos, Ivy, Yoshimitsu, Xiba*
B: Voldo, Siegfried, Devil Jin*, Leixia, Maxi, Hilde, Aeon
C: Ezio*, Tira, Raphael, Zwei
D Tier: Dampierre

* = On the fence about.
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
My list (updated) :
S: Algol*, Alpha Pat, Cervantes, Mitsurugi
A: Viola*, Patroklos, Omega
C: Nightmare, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Voldo, Ivy, Natsu, Pyrrha
D: Ezio, Leixa*, Maxi, Aeon, Xiba, Hilde, Tira
E: Siegfried*, ZWEI*, Dampierre
F: Raph*

* = need to be patched asap.
- Algol need a real nerf : way too much damage overall, his 66B is just way too safe (-10/-11/-12 should be good because of pushback), Qi K/B at wake up should have removed tracking (especially Qi K) in order to make the A useful, FC 8B BE should be nerfed in air combos.
- Viola need a real nerf too : waaaaay too much damage, her 44A BE need to be nerfed, her 3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE needs to be removed, her BT throw need to be nerfed in order not to have 44A BE connecting.
- Leixa needs to be upped : I put her in mid (D being mid) but I think is she should be in E... She deals no damage at all, her only redeeming feature is her correct frame trap game and auto-evade game. She needs either to have more damage or more guard breaking situations.
- Siegfried needs to be upped too : please give him back 55/50 damage throws, and he needs more NH damage without BE.
- Raph well... just make him pre-patch version, everyone will be happy.

I think this game is kinda balanced too, but some tweaks are needed to make this game even better.

PS : If you want to patch Alpha Patroklos, I would reduce damage overall (reduce 2A BE and JF twister damage would reduce all his damage), make FC 3B:B to 1.03's 1B:B timing (1JF window), make FC 3B:B less damaging too but buff 6AA (-14 instead of -16 block), buff 44A (more range, this move is completely useless atm).
PPS : Hilde may be C tier and Ezio may be E tier. Dampierre tier is completely random.

EDIT : Thank you ChaosK
 

Kalas

[13] Hero
- Leixa needs to be upped : I put her in mid (D being mid) but I think is she should be in E... She deals no damage at all, her only redeeming feature is her correct frame trap game and auto-evade game. She needs either to have more damage or more guard breaking situations.
I would have never thought to see a non-Leixia player suggesting a buff for her on 8WR...

When you say guard breaking situations, do you mean a stronger guard burst game? I wouldn't like to see that.
If she will ever be buffed in a patch, I'd rather like to see increased NH damage.
I think the following moves should be buffed (in terms of damage):
  • 3B (so that you get at least 55dmg off of a CH 3B, I think CH 3B 3B+K doesnt even do 45dmg), the move itself is great, but it's so weak and it doesn't even guarantee an awesome followup on CH unlike other characters' 3B's. This would also help her general damage because 3B is part of a lot of combos (e.g. after 44A, AA BE on stun, WS B BE)
  • 66AA (from 26 to 35 or make 66AA FC3B a NH combo)
  • 4A+B (40 to 45, so that the combo does more than 60)
  • FC 3B to pre-patch (c'mon 30dmg is too much for this move?!, it should do even more than 30dmg not less!)
  • 44B (26 to 30-35, Mitsus 4B anyone?)
  • B+G (45 to 50)
Right now, she is lightyears away from the damage potential that top tiers are capable of. Buffs wouldn't make her top, but you wouldn't need to hit you opponent twice or three times as often to kill him. With CE CE being gone, I don't see any comeback potential either (except a guard burst in front of a wall, but that goes for anybody).
I don't get why they nerfed her damage in 1.02 anyway...

Note: This post is salt-free. It's my opinion on my main and if I could I'd also buff other characters, not only her.
 

Silencer

[09] Warrior
How is this accurate at all? Algol(maybe), Astaroth, Pyrrha, Ivy, NM, Yoshi, Pat, Voldo, Sieg, Leix, Natsu, Maxi, Xiba, Aeon, Tira, ZWEI, Raphael. How are ANY OF THESE BETTER THAN PYRRHA OMEGA OR VIOLA? Also, you cant have only 2 tiers with 1 character in 1 tier and 23 characters in the other? What you are saying is that aside from Cervy, the whole cast is even. Wow. First of all, learn that tiers are based on data(Frames, range, damage, spacing, meter use, meter gain, RO game, mixup, wakeup, techtraps, throws, evasion, guard crush properties, and combo length(The ability to choose how long the combo you are going to do is to waste time to get a times up(Viola and Astaroth can do this amazingly))) not the player or else that would mean Talim and Zas were Top tier in 4(Kura and Omega). Also, 'most accurate list so far' NOT A CHANCE. A MUCH more accurate tier list(In order to) would be,
Top: aPat, Cervy, Mitsurugi, Omega, Viola, Algol.
Upper mid: Patroklos or Pyrrha, Astaroth or Ivy, Nightmare, Voldo.
Mid: Natsu, Hilde, Tira.
Lower mid: Aeon, Xiba, Leixia, Siegfried or Maxi, Ezio.
Bottom: Z.W.E.I., Raphael, Dampierre.
For me tiers come from actual fights, besides how will you analyze spacing, sidestepping, etc sounds a bunch of nonsense to me / too many variables.

Also you didn't read my full post. :I
- High tier differences are small enough for me not to care / be able to make differences

Is there some general rule that all tiers must be populated? If the tier lists here say that there isn't much difference between the top chars and bottom tier chars, i can agree with that. But if someone says one character struggles a lot in matchups, I'm alienated and think if we are playing the same game.

Then again I'm already weirded out by seeing Zwei at bottom in so many lists, that would be an easy high tier placement for me. Maybe people mean if you play Zwei and don't use Ein at all? lol o_o

Also 'most accurate list so far', take a chill pill. Seems like that for me still, it all a matter of perspective regards to that one isn't it o_O

The list I presented was not a joke, it was exactly what it was, my view of the game. PS. still not giving a damn for minor char advantages :]
 

Synraii

[14] Master
At least I'm not the only one who thinks the same way regarding how strong each Alexandra is in this game:

Best Alpha Patroklos
Pyrrha Omega/Patroklos
Worst Pyrrha
 

Crysack

[09] Warrior
- Viola need a real nerf too : waaaaay too much damage, her 44A BE need to be nerfed, her 3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE needs to be removed, her BT throw need to be nerfed in order not to have 44A BE connecting.
That seems like an insane change.
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
My list (updated) :
S: Algol*, Alpha Pat, Cervantes, Mitsurugi
A: Viola*, Patroklos, Omega
C: Nightmare, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Voldo, Ivy, Natsu, Pyrrha
D: Ezio, Leixa*, Maxi, Aeon, Xiba, Hilde, Tira
E: Siegfried*, ZWEI*, Dampierre
F: Raph*

* = need to be patched asap.
- Algol need a real nerf : way too much damage overall, his 66B is just way too safe (-10/-11/-12 should be good because of pushback), Qi K/B at wake up should have removed tracking (especially Qi K) in order to make the A useful, FC 8B BE should be nerfed in air combos.
- Viola need a real nerf too : waaaaay too much damage, her 44A BE need to be nerfed, her 3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE needs to be removed, her BT throw need to be nerfed in order not to have 44A BE connecting.
- Leixa needs to be upped : I put her in mid (D being mid) but I think is she should be in E... She deals no damage at all, her only redeeming feature is her correct frame trap game and auto-evade game. She needs either to have more damage or more guard breaking situations.
- Siegfried needs to be upped too : please give him back 55/50 damage throws, and he needs more NH damage without BE.
- Raph well... just make him pre-patch version, everyone will be happy.

I think this game is kinda balanced too, but some tweaks are needed to make this game even better.

PS : If you want to patch Alpha Patroklos, I would reduce damage overall (reduce 2A BE and JF twister damage would reduce all his damage), make FC 3B:B to 1.03's 1B:B timing (1JF window), make FC 3B:B less damaging too but buff 6AA (-14 instead of -16 block), buff 44A (more range, this move is completely useless atm).
PPS : Hilde may be C tier and Ezio may be E tier. Dampierre tier is completely random.

EDIT : Thank you ChaosK
Maxi, Xiba, Hilde, Yoshimitsu and Tira are certainly better than Leixia at this point. Way more tools, options and damage reward. I don't think you really need to space out the tiers as much as you did, either.

Far as I can see right now. Tira and Yoshimitsu probably don't have a really bad match up. I'd probably opt for Voldo too, but I don't play him enough to really grasp where he might have trouble.

Dampierre's going to lose to anyone who has a solid punisher. Only way Dampierre would win is if the player didn't bother using Fake Pain or Poker Bluff. When his 623B with his best TC and backdash punish has the random chance to go into PB, he's not really going to go anywhere from there. Luckily, he's got the best step in the game.

I'm still unsure about Pyrrha and Omega. I'm pretty sure that Omega's best options are NS B, 66B, 4AB, 6k and DNS B. And that's all she really has. Pyrrha has 66B, 44B, 236B, 44A, 4AB, 1K, 4K, 6BK, 6K, 4B, WS K, 11AA and 66A. She won't get that close to Omega's damage, but she has a lot more opportunities to make it count.
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
I'm still unsure about Pyrrha and Omega. I'm pretty sure that Omega's best options are NS B, 66B, 4AB, 6k and DNS B. And that's all she really has. Pyrrha has 66B, 44B, 236B, 44A, 4AB, 1K, 4K, 6BK, 6K, 4B, WS K, 11AA and 66A. She won't get that close to Omega's damage, but she has a lot more opportunities to make it count.
Omega has other options you didn't cover :
- her best offensive move : 4B (60+ dmg NH, 90+ if CE, +0 block)
- 66A (very good antistep tool, -12 but can be safe against some characters because of pushback > Alpha can't punish it with AA)
- WS B is also very good.
- NS A very good starter move (unsafe, but TC and antistep tool)
- 22_88B (TC, safe, combo with DNS B NH)
+ very good pokes, average to good throws (enough to feel pressured) and a very good guard break damage overall.
Her damage isn't "that" high without CE. But a very very good punishing character with some good offensive tools.

I am surprised you didn't talk at all of Pyrrha's best move : 22K.
Pyrrha's damage isn't that high either (apart from 22K 236B:4 nothing is over 80dmg without CE). She has better pokes, and better damage opportunities that Omega but she has a serious weakness : zoning. She will suffer against good zoning characters like Nightmare, Mitsurugi, or even Cervantes.

This weakness isn't Omega's. I believe Omega will end up over Pyrrah in the long run if you look at MUs.

That seems like an insane change.
I dunno which change you feel is "insane" but every thing I talked about is balanced IMO.
Viola atm has over 1/2 life combos with easy starter.
3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE AAB 66B 66A+B is 112+ damage. Easy change : 6A+B 2B+K BE shouldn't connect.
This would let her have the standart combo 3B AAB 2A+B 2B+K BE AAB 66B 66A+B for "only" 94dmg (without clean hit obv.)

She has the best BT throw in the whole game. BT throw into 44A BE is combo for 120+dmg. If you add one more BE you get 140+damage....

And talking about 44A BE, this is the best move in the whole game. i20 blockstun, antistep, can be hit confirmed and delayed for 1/2 life combo. Talk about being broken... (yes I am aware you can GI the ball, and that you can step too, still it is a broken move).

Yes Viola suffers against zoning characters. But Namco's up of damage wasn't the solution. She was enough damaging as it was pre-patch.
 

Ring

Lay still now
And talking about 44A BE, this is the best move in the whole game. i20 blockstun, antistep, can be hit confirmed and delayed for 1/2 life combo. Talk about being broken... (yes I am aware you can GI the ball, and that you can step too, still it is a broken move).
I agree. I also think, the only way to punish viola here is to JG the second hit, right? If you step Viola is still safe, if you GI you waste meter (unless you have 150% for GI into CE) and she can still re-GI.

How was this move changed in the patch by the way?
 

CheeseOfTheDay

[10] Knight
And I don't know is this a absolutely best move in the game, at least not in all matchups. While I played vs viola mostly for me biggest thread is viola's dmg after that move, and tracking abilities.
While blocked its easy JG on first ball to backstep or SS. Most characters can SS first ball without JG, and NM can even backdash it. After 2 first hits blocked it's also free CE for Alpha, Lei, NM and probably some more. Things gets more complicated while you are trapped between viola and wall (in very close range ball hits in about 13 frame so its risky but still viola can be hit out of her mixup) but it's not like you always is in that position.
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
I agree. I also think, the only way to punish viola here is to JG the second hit, right? If you step Viola is still safe, if you GI you waste meter (unless you have 150% for GI into CE) and she can still re-GI.

How was this move changed in the patch by the way?
Best thing to do is to GI. Not a waster of meter because if she does GI back she has less metter. Less meter for Viola = less damage. This is a good thing.
JG or step isn't that good because you can cancel the second hit into 6B+K + pressing.

After the patch, this move can delayed with a huuuuuge window.
This allow for better confirms, or delay gimmics.
Combos like 6B+K 2A 44A BE + combo are possible only because of this delay (139dmg without clean hit for 1 BE).
 
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