Tier Discussion

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b4k4 said:
A "low-tier" Siegfried just took a Toronto tournament. Granted it was a fairly low turnout, but this guy really knows his character and how to apply his strengths (as did the other players there with higher tier characters, i.e. Cervy, Mitsu, etc.).
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God...that's why I said "low" and not low...see the difference. I actually believe that Sieg is solid mid but most of the people on 8wr think that he is low.
 
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Azazel said:
God...that's why I said "low" and not low...see the difference. I actually believe that Sieg is solid mid but most of the people on 8wr think that he is low.
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Yeah that wasn't me calling you out, it was more an observation for the people who think of Sieg as "low tier, cannot win."

I mean, I'm playing Alpha as my main right now. Obviously a solid character, but not as great as everyone makes him out to be (damage = excellent, execution barrier = heavy punishment for drops, crappy tracking = free to step). I personally have a lot of trouble with certain match ups, but rather than just drop the character and pick an easier/more advantageous one, I'm devoting a lot of energy to figuring out how to best apply his tools to counteract his deficiencies.
 
Mandy said:
My only gripe with Viola is that she's probably the ultimate flowchart character. Mindless combos into fresh launchers, and relaunches on GIs. When Keev puts down Nightmare for a pocket Viola I get an inkling that she may a bit high on the power spectrum (he did lose anyway though).

That being said, I feel that a lot of the ranged characters have an excellent match-up vs. Viola; seems like a counter pick would be absolutely necessary depending on who you main.
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As a Viola player I'm really shooting myself in the foot by telling you this, but Viola, whilst certainly top 10, arguably top 5, does have some clear and exploitable flaws. In particular she has a considerable blindspot at mid-range. This blindspot isn't quite as massive post-patch as it was pre-patch, due to buffed reach on 3A and increased damage on 66A, but on the whole many characters can pressure Viola quite effectively just outside of 3A range. Viola's launchers are just as unsafe as anybody else's - you'll find her combos mostly stem from whiff punishes. In addition, she lacks decent lows at close range - further back she can use 44K and 1A+B, but those aren't really viable close-up because they're quite slow.


b4k4 said:
A "low-tier" Siegfried just took a Toronto tournament. Granted it was a fairly low turnout, but this guy really knows his character and how to apply his strengths (as did the other players there with higher tier characters, i.e. Cervy, Mitsu, etc.).

I mean, these threads are inevitable and all, but we're still only 3 months in. There's so much left to learn. I engage in this thread from time to time, but I'm not sure I really understand the point. Is it so people know which characters are "best" so that they can take them up? Is it so people will know their characters are "bad" and will use that as an excuse, instead of seeking creative work-arounds?

Edit: AceFrost said I was thinking in the post above. Basically nailed it. Tiers = tears.
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We discuss tiers because they're interesting to discuss. Surely that's all the reason you need?
 
MntT77 said:
Viola's launchers are just as unsafe as anybody else's - you'll find her combos mostly stem from whiff punishes. In addition, she lacks decent lows at close range - further back she can use 44K and 1A+B, but those aren't really viable close-up because they're quite slow.
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Just wanted to say that 44A BE is safe, and 6B+K makes all of her other launchers safe and also gives her a safe, unseeable low (1K) that's extremely + on hit.

You are right about her being somewhat weak at range though, but she can bait the opponent into stepping 6B+K and hit them with 66AAB for a good 50 damage plus her obscene wakeup pressure.
 
Slade said:
He forces the opponent to work harder to beat him than he has to work to do so. In order to do well against him you have to Just Guard 22B and 44A on reaction, which is considerably harder than guessing 22B and getting half health.

I don't think Astaroth is a good character, but he's really annoying to fight against.
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I just space his 44A out and whiff punish it. 22B and grabs are the biggest threats I see from him and 22B can be JG like you said. From a distance 66(K) gets Maxi's A+B on reaction.

He isn't nowhere near annoying as Saferugi. Unless you have a character who sucks at whiff punishing of course. Then it could probably be really annoying.
 
Slade said:
Just wanted to say that 44A BE is safe, and 6B+K makes all of her other launchers safe and also gives her a safe, unseeable low (1K) that's extremely + on hit.

You are right about her being somewhat weak at range though, but she can bait the opponent into stepping 6B+K and hit them with 66AAB for a good 50 damage plus her obscene wakeup pressure.
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OK, tbf 44A BE is safe. But obviously you need meter in order to do it. Amend what I said to "Viola's non-BE launchers are just as unsafe as anybody else's". If you're lucky the attack will glitch out and you don't have to worry about the BE part... >_<

6B+K mix-ups are also a factor, but then again it's very obvious when a 6B+K trap is being set up if you look out for it, in which case you can either take the opportunity to mix-up Viola during her cooldown, or sidestep out of the way (depending on what range you're at). In the case you mentioned, if she was in 66A range you'd probably want to try and out-attack her.
 
I don't think 6B+K mixups are all that easy to react to, Just my two cents.
 
I think its a little sad that we can't build a consensus about a tier list, even if it would most likely change a little over the course of time.
 
I think the only concensus is that Raph is low(est) tier, aPat is high(est) tier, Nightmare is upper-mid. Almost everyone else is up in the air.
 
Maxou said:
France concensus on top5 :
In no order : Algol, Alpha, Viola, Mitsurugi, Cervantes.
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Agree, though I would put Mitsu even higher XD...I must insist...retarded character, at least Viola, Alpha, Cerv and Algol have some degree of difficulty.

Raph is lower than Damp, no argument there...
 
Alright, so current consensus:

Top: Algol, Alpha, Viola, Mitsurugi, Cervantes
Upper Mid: Nightmare
Low: Dampierre
Bottom: Raphael

Now we just need to place the other dozen characters in this game. I'd say Natsu should be in Upper Mid as well, Ezio definitely in Low, and Voldo/Yoshi/ in mid.

Harder to place characters:
Maxi - Quick, great range, but once you fully understand his stances he becomes much easier to deal with. Great guard pressure, decent mix-ups, and can easily make you panic. Probably Mid, but I can see him being upper mid.

Pyrrhas - I feel like they're good, but outside of a lot of the quick pokes and the 236B punishes, they just seem too readable. Again, same dilema, definitely Mid, but I'm sure many others would argue upper.

Patroklos - Personally I feel he's just a better Pyrrha, I think his pokes are better, his mix-ups (if you can call his lows that) are better, his range is better, his combo ability and simplicity is well designed (despite those random 66B+K whiffs). Excellent RO ability and poke game. I'd say definitely Upper Mid.

Sieg - Huge point of debate here. Personally I feel he's at least mid, possibly even upper-mid, but many others scream low. I'm sure he will be extremely difficult to place.

Tira - I feel the nerf bat hit her rather hard. Without guaranteed stance chances from a lot of moves, she just feels lacking. Mid at best in my opinion.

Astaroth - Kinda up in the air about him; he's extremely powerful, but a lot of his damage isn't guaranteed which bothers me. Mid at the very least.

Z.W.E.I. - Definitely underrated. Many placed him as low initially, I would say he's definitely in the Mid echelon.

I know I'm missing a few here, but I'll take time to dawn upon that later.

So my initial thoughts following what I would say is agreed on at the very top of this post.

Would we say this is a general agreement as well?

Upper Mid: Natsu, Patroklos
Mid: Yoshi/Voldo
Ezio: Low

I think there's a lot to agree on, just a lot of saltyness going on in early talks about characters and trying to attain nerfs/buffs.
 
Mandy said:
I think the only concensus is that Raph is low(est) tier, aPat is high(est) tier, Nightmare is upper-mid. Almost everyone else is up in the air.
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I don't think I would say Alpha is a clear cut #1. His damage output is great, but I keep having to reiterate that his toolset itself is actually very limited, and his linearity is exploitable. This is not a problem Cervy or Mitsu have.

I would actually place Cervy potentially above Mitsu, but I think both of them sit above Alpha.
 
The thing with sieg is, that he is bad on paper, like really bad. But as NM and alpha showed, that stuff isn't the full picture. Siegs general movelist is rather bad but among those are some moves that are really, really good and if you work with that (aka abuse those tools), you have a viable character.

People always think that you are being cheap when you spam 3B in a lot of situations but its actually the correct way to play him. Take omega for example - he only used like 6 moves but those are the ones that are really good and he won.
 
ChaosK said:
People always think that you are being cheap when you spam 3B in a lot of situations but its actually the correct way to play him. Take omega for example - he only used like 6 moves but those are the ones that are really good and he won.
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That's why I feel like he's Upper Mid. I think it's the paper tier lists that feel the most inaccurate.

 
Mandy said:
I think it's the paper tier lists that feel the most inaccurate
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Truer words have never been spoken before.

Everyone here defines tiers under a bunch of (and I mean it) useless numbers and they put everything on paper and use that for their arguments. Omega won the tourney without giving a single fuck about data frame but there are so many players in here that play thinking only in which move has advantage and how many frames is he gonna gain and you don't see those players winning big tournaments.
 
Mandy said:
That's why I feel like he's Upper Mid. I think it's the paper tier lists that feel the most inaccurate.
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Well i wouldn't go as far as calling him upper mid but he surely isn't as bad as he looks. I think he made it into mid tier with patch 1.02, definitely still bottom half at least though.
 
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