Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3

RIDLEYomega said:
oh ok, so is the recovery frames refering to when an attack does not land? otherwise if it's guarded it'd be on guard disadvantage rather than recovery... right?
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Active frames are the frames of a move where it has a hitbox. Startup frames are the frames before it has a hitbox and recovery frames are the ones after it has a hitbox. When something is blocked if your recovery is more than their blockstun thats called guard disadvantage because the blocker is able to act again sooner so they can get moves out faster. Guard advantage is when your move has enough blockstun that you recover before they can act again, more easily allowing you to continue your offensive.
 
A move consists of 3 stages:

  • Start Up (how many frames it takes to become a threat)
  • Active (how many frames the move remains a threat after Stat Up)
  • Recovery (how many frames a move takes to finish it's animation AFTER the active frames are over)
So lets pretend a move is 5-3-10: It would work like this: 5 frames up start up, it deals no damage. At frame 6 Active frames start and it lasts for 3 frames (frame 9). At frame 10 the active frames of the attack are over and you begin recovering for 10 frames. All together the move took 18 frames to complete. Advantage is determined by comparing the amount of hit/block stun frames your enemy is stuck in versus remaining Active frames and Recovery frames. So if that move causes 14 frames of hit stun and you hit at the first active frame possible it would be:

14 (enemy stun) - 2 (remaining active frames) - 10 (recovery frames) = +2

So you would end up with +2 advantage if you just did that move...if you did a meaty hit and got them with the very final Active Frame (usually done by starting the move early on a rising opponent or tip range with some moves) it would be:

14 (enemy stun) - 0 (remaining active frames) - 10 (recovery frames) = +4

Keep in mind you can cancel after you connect with a hit and bypass frames disadvantage.

Hypers are slightly different, they have 2 sets start up. The point up to the "flash" and then whatever frames AFTER the flash.

As for projectiles, active frames apply to how long you are producing an active threat, not how long it's on screen. So Ryu's fireball can be active awhile, but it only tells you the moment the fireball would hit at point blank. Advantage is also based on point blank hits. If you throw a fire ball, finish the recovery, and THEN it hits...you are at a much larger frame advantage because you do not add the recovery frames.

Does anyone know when invincibility starts? Is it in the active or start up frames and with hypers is it after the "flash"?

OFF TOPIC

I would also like to take this moment and make up my complaint about my Soul Calibur 5 request giving us this knowledge as our end of testing can only provide loose frame start up and advantage/disadvantage. Knowledge of the entire animations frames (for on whiff) and available active frames (for meaty hitting) are unknown to us and our wiki. We need this...even though people say it will ruin the fun of the game by not finding it out and there'd be nothing to test...here's MvC3...we're still testing shit out and we got way more than i was wanting! surprise! All my bitching...proven right to a ridiculous extent! This info lets us test MORE, so people here please ask for it in the SC5 thread.
 
You don't need to know too much about frames for this game. You should be aware of start up time of normals you intend to start combos with and specials and hypers used outside of combos. Also look at special and hyper recovery and just determine if your safe or have any significant advantage. Learn what is unsafe and just remember to find a safe way to cancel. Taskmaster b.H (or 4H) is unsafe, but you can fix that by canceling into arrows, so you don't need to really every count the frames you lost...cuz your just going to cancel it anyway.
 
IvyFanboy said:
OFF TOPIC

I would also like to take this moment and make up my complaint about my Soul Calibur 5 request giving us this knowledge as our end of testing can only provide loose frame start up and advantage/disadvantage. Knowledge of the entire animations frames (for on whiff) and available active frames (for meaty hitting) are unknown to us and our wiki. We need this...even though people say it will ruin the fun of the game by not finding it out and there'd be nothing to test...here's MvC3...we're still testing shit out and we got way more than i was wanting! surprise! All my bitching...proven right to a ridiculous extent! This info lets us test MORE, so people here please ask for it in the SC5 thread.
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What you were asking for is Namco to give you frame data which ain't going to happen. I'm sure someone will make a guide and include frame data when the game comes out. You'll be fine.
 
Malice said:
What you were asking for is Namco to give you frame data which ain't going to happen. I'm sure someone will make a guide and include frame data when the game comes out. You'll be fine.
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I requested at least have the info released to be included in a guide. I went on to more bold statements such as to include it in practice mode, but people were challenging that having the info be available even in a guide would be a bad thing; citing that it would reduce the games longevity and enjoyability through lack of testable variables. The only thing I could be missing is perhaps the guide makers personally tested moves and gained the frames themselves but I'm PRETTY sure Capcom released the spreadsheets to the guide makers. I'm just profoundly impressed with MvC3's guide as it demonstrated that giving info to players is in fact a good thing. No one wants to test st.M kick is -5 frames...they want to know when to use it and with the knowledge, can you use it for obscure combo and pressure, etc... purposes. Soul Calibur should look at the innovations Capcom is making and apply them to their next title and perhaps carry them forward.

In the MvC3 guide, it does explain the frame data by the way. Check in the first part of the book. It'll hopefully clear things up for those confused.
 
I have the guide but this is still confusing as hell, and the way it has been explained here is exactly the same as the guide, which means we are not going anywhere like this. Too many divisions for a single move. Check this out for example, how come Chun-Li's S can't be punished by H when the disadvantage of S is -10 and H is 10 start up
 
the active frame occurs AFTER the start up so H hit's on frame 11, the very frame you can block after S...

I know we have a good Soul Cal frame thread, but I may put together a more in depth write up on all frame data in general. We never go over active frames and total move animation, we just cover start up and block/hit advantage. This weekend maybe. Insert Coin just opened and I can't do a good write up at work (if you ever wonder why i edit a million times...im at work doing this crap lol)
 
ohh, I get it now, so active frames is when it will actually land a hit, got it, I only need to understand recovery now, what does that do, do you add it to disadvantage frames?
 
recovery is the time between the move being active and when you can block again. they determine if a move is safe or unsafe. it's just like calling something -11 on soul calibur.
 
wow... I still don't get it, it's punishable because it's 13 frames recovery yet it's only -2 on block o.O what the hell lol
 
Ok let's think of Doom firing his beam. Start up is the animation of him pulling his hands back and pushing them forward. During this there is no threat on screen and the attack isn't actually doing anything. After that finishes the beam begins to emerge from his hands, NOW the beam is a threat as it can hit the enemy, this is the start of the active frames. The active frames last as long as the attack is producing a threat, so in this case the entire time he's pushing out the beam. Next he needs to retract his hands, this is the recovery frames. He's not producing any threat and is just doing the animation to return to neutral. SOOO A punch would be:

Startup: Winding up
Active: The fist is out and can hit the enemy
Recovery: Pulling your fist back


NOW, when you hit the enemy they are put into one of 3 animations: block stun, hit stun, counter hit stun. Notice when you block or get hit you're stuck reeling back for a moment and can't do anything? That's the 'stun'. So when you hit with active frame, they get set into a stun animation and it's a race to see if they will finish that animation before you're move finished recovering. so a 4-5-10 move that is +3 on block means:

  • Move takes 19 frames to execute
  • Earliest hit at 5th frame
  • Takes 14 frames after earliest hit to finish (4 remaining active frames + recovery frames)

So with a little algebra we can make this formula:

Enemy stun - remaining active frames - recovery frames = advantage
??? - 4 - 10 = 3
??? - 14 = 3
??? - 14 (+14) = 3 (+14)
???? = 17
Stun is 17 frames!

Sooooo... at frame 5 we hit them and send them into a stun for 17 frame, they can't do anything. 4 active frames pass and then we start the recovery frames, the enemy still has 13 frames left of stun. It takes 10 frames for us to recover leaving the enemy with 3 frames left to finish their stun animation. So for 3 frames we can do stuff, giving us advantage.

You do not need to go math crazy on all this, this is just showing you why it works.
 
Personally I find trial and error works, for instance, Deadpool's c H (crouch H) has a slow start up which prevents it from being used as a quick punish easily (I play online so lag is a variable) and should instead follow a c L, which lacks the range but will beat all but the faster characters. It's range alone however is awesome and can take the unwary by surprise and can be followed by S.

Also are you taking into account that on hit the properties change on most standard non special hits, the start-up remains I assume, as you have to be quick, but the recovery of each hit landed is reduced for certain hits notably double Ms in the air. As an example, Deadpool again, his c H is a slow starter, but if you can get H a faster starter then you can quickly follow it with c H (maybe even M or c M first, not sure of the start ups) and, again quickly, S.

This, of course, only makes it easier to land combos, not punish mistakes, but you don't have to be a genius to see that say, Deadpool's shoryuken, is highly punishable on block with no push. Slower characters are predictably simliar. As for stuns these are rare, only character I can think of that will stun you significantly is Magneto. Of course there are floor and wall bounces and such to consider too, these extend combos and are not escapable once hit. Hulk H is a prime example.

Some moves can leave you in a tailspin, not sure how long this lasts but it doesn't seem to end till you hit the floor. There are lesser air stuns but these are unpredictable at the best of times, Dante is a culprit here sometimes you escape, sometimes you don't, sometimes you even escape then get caught again...
 
but you really don't need to pay attention to te recovery time rght? I mean you got the frame data for advantage on guard and hit so that's all done for you
 
Not quite...

Along with start up and recovery this game has the ability to cancel moves, thus changing advantage. I'm not sure if canceling occurs any time after hit, or it must reach the recovery frames, but we'll assume it's after hit and can be done in remaining active frames. By the way these are made up moves and frames (this example does not exist in the game as far as i know, but clues you into what occurs).

So if I have st.M 6-3-7 (+4) and st.H 12-3-15 (-8) it can play out like this going st.M to st.H:

st.M hit stun with our formula:
Enemy stun - remaining active frames - recovery frames = advantage
??? - 2 - 7 = 4
??? - 9 = 4
??? - 9 (+9) = 4 (+9)
???? = 13
Stun is 13 frames!

I hit at frame 7 with st.M, then press st.H at frame 8 of st.M, St.H begins the next frame (so would've been frame 9 of st.M), we now canceled st.M and began st.H while the enemy is in hit stun of st.M. so lets compare the hit stun of st.M and the start up of st.H

hit stun from st.M - start up of st.H
13 - 12 = 1 frame to land the move!

You must have perfect timing!, if you delay the cancel and do it a few frames into st.M recovery your st.H won't connect. This is why people drop combos, they cancel at the wrong time creating issues with hit stun finishing or hitboxes whiffing due to position and etc of the enemy from stun. So dropping combo's isn't random, you have intervals of time that it must be done in to work.
 
I will take the time to do an elaborate post with visuals since I know I'm losing people at the math and stuff. Frame data has a lot of technical aspects that seem overwhelming to learn, but it's actually easy and you'll find you only looking for a few key things. It just helps to understand the technical stuff too. Give me a few days to throw it together.
 
Yeah, I've been trying to like this but it's a bad, bad game. Very inconsistent. It allows brain dead strategies. If you hold the controller in the air and drop it against the floor it will do combos with Zero. I think I'm going to stick only to old fighting games from now on, since they take at least a semblance of strategy. You might not be able to spell your name, but you can probably win at Marvel 3!
 
Fighting games are not about combos for damage, it's actually about creating opening for it and having options. While I'm not big on the amount of damage output of some characters from any given scenario, I feel the game does have a lot of strategy in terms of the sheer amount of options. I feel people get to bent out of shape that controls have gotten easier and fail to realize that the skill should be about what you intend to do with a character, not about IF you can do what you intended. People put too much into dexterity skill, and I'm glad to see that go, it creates a wall that doesn't allow other skills to flourish since they become dependent upon that one to occur.

Right now it seems it's very easy to produce a strong offense and yes it is a bit mindless...but I feel there's a lot of skill in turning a scenario and being defensive.

If they tone down some of the offensive capabilities it's actually a very good game (despite poor online and modes). Just right now there's not enough room to experiment within the fight and so tiny pokes become huge easy damage with some characters.
 
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