Panther
[09] Warrior
We could also change the notation in the Wiki to follow our method.
Viola Frame Data Discussion
- Thread starter Destinizish
- Start date
Panther
[09] Warrior
1. I find it surprising that some of you have refused to read up on the notations which I decided to use from Day 1 of this game. It was in the very first posts, such as in the combo discussion threads, and suddenly I now have people telling me (who apparently have not read any such threads until now when they suddenly magically appear after our initial discussions one week later) to follow the guide because it is a goddamned guide.
2. A guide done by "top players" is not necessarily an "end-all-know-all" method to your needs. It is what it is - a guide. I doubt I have to re-iterate what a guide does, but I will put it out here in any case - it simply means that it is a reference for your needs. Do not treat it as a "this is something put together by top players so it must be goddamned correct" thing. Not even the tier discussions could be treated as accurate entirely. No one had the opportunity to let the game go through a few major tournaments with many different styles to know enough to discuss a possible tier rating.
3. We had a v1.01 patch that we knew changed Viola's stuff. I asked in this very same thread for someone to check if the frame data might have been changed. It only needed a few moves - if those few moves (whichever they were, though to be truly accurate we would have to check every move) were the same as the ones in the guide, then it is highly likely but not always consistent that the frame data in there has remained correct. And who knows, we might get more patches in the future that might change the frame data.
4. There is another reason I am not in favor of changing to the guide's style. For one the guide, as I mentioned, might not be entirely accurate in its findings. The other reason is even simpler - people have different play styles and would like to use our Soul Arena for not just data but also opinions on play styles and possibilities of playing Viola that only the Soul Arena would provide. Not everyone wants to play competitively. The last reason is simplest - you think everyone has the ability to buy the guide? USA is not the only place that has the game, you know, and shipping costs are not exactly friendly to some, or even a worthwhile investment for the guide, even though I admit the guide does look and sound nice to flip through and gain some insights from (from the words of others only, I do not have access to it).
Further I even mentioned at the start of the issue on notations that we should use N/Orb and W/Orb to differentiate it from possible confusions. But people have been using N/O and W/O simply because that is simpler and they are likely used to it by now. W/O and N/O used in caps (and at the start of a combo except for discussions) should not confuse anyone if used for Viola. I specifically said this might happen especially the clash with W/O. No one told me "this sucks" at the time. Why tell me such things now after the guide has been released?
Now this is hardly Heaton's fault because I understand he is only trying to help, but honestly, the way some of you have been touting the guide left, right and center, it leads me to believe that you seem to think of it as the freaking Commandments of this game (I apologize if anyone feels this is blasphemous by the way). Well come major tournament time and if it happens you find out quite suddenly that the guide was wrong when some other character other than what the guide stated would win the tournament, then maybe everyone would get a wake-up call regarding "guides".
Lastly, I am not about to flame anyone in particular nor am I trying to do so. If I come off as such to you, I apologize, but I am more than a little upset with how they have taken the game with regards to seriousness and its development, and also how people have treated or approached both the game and this guide.
PS: By the way I already have a pretty good idea where Viola would stand in a "tier listing" and what characters would likely win a major tournament though I could be wrong. This is outside of SA discussion however so if you would like to know more feel free to PM me.
PPS: I am not editing or including any frame data until I see a few people tell me that the frame data has been tested and proven to be correct/accurate. Sorry but I am not a good tester and I would prefer if others more motivated than me do this with better and more accurate findings. I am much better as a person who helps you organize the data and show you what it could mean (not always correct either), or how to interpret it. If you are uncomfortable with replying here on the forums feel free to PM me. I will be more than happy to help.
2. A guide done by "top players" is not necessarily an "end-all-know-all" method to your needs. It is what it is - a guide. I doubt I have to re-iterate what a guide does, but I will put it out here in any case - it simply means that it is a reference for your needs. Do not treat it as a "this is something put together by top players so it must be goddamned correct" thing. Not even the tier discussions could be treated as accurate entirely. No one had the opportunity to let the game go through a few major tournaments with many different styles to know enough to discuss a possible tier rating.
3. We had a v1.01 patch that we knew changed Viola's stuff. I asked in this very same thread for someone to check if the frame data might have been changed. It only needed a few moves - if those few moves (whichever they were, though to be truly accurate we would have to check every move) were the same as the ones in the guide, then it is highly likely but not always consistent that the frame data in there has remained correct. And who knows, we might get more patches in the future that might change the frame data.
4. There is another reason I am not in favor of changing to the guide's style. For one the guide, as I mentioned, might not be entirely accurate in its findings. The other reason is even simpler - people have different play styles and would like to use our Soul Arena for not just data but also opinions on play styles and possibilities of playing Viola that only the Soul Arena would provide. Not everyone wants to play competitively. The last reason is simplest - you think everyone has the ability to buy the guide? USA is not the only place that has the game, you know, and shipping costs are not exactly friendly to some, or even a worthwhile investment for the guide, even though I admit the guide does look and sound nice to flip through and gain some insights from (from the words of others only, I do not have access to it).
Further I even mentioned at the start of the issue on notations that we should use N/Orb and W/Orb to differentiate it from possible confusions. But people have been using N/O and W/O simply because that is simpler and they are likely used to it by now. W/O and N/O used in caps (and at the start of a combo except for discussions) should not confuse anyone if used for Viola. I specifically said this might happen especially the clash with W/O. No one told me "this sucks" at the time. Why tell me such things now after the guide has been released?
Now this is hardly Heaton's fault because I understand he is only trying to help, but honestly, the way some of you have been touting the guide left, right and center, it leads me to believe that you seem to think of it as the freaking Commandments of this game (I apologize if anyone feels this is blasphemous by the way). Well come major tournament time and if it happens you find out quite suddenly that the guide was wrong when some other character other than what the guide stated would win the tournament, then maybe everyone would get a wake-up call regarding "guides".
Lastly, I am not about to flame anyone in particular nor am I trying to do so. If I come off as such to you, I apologize, but I am more than a little upset with how they have taken the game with regards to seriousness and its development, and also how people have treated or approached both the game and this guide.
PS: By the way I already have a pretty good idea where Viola would stand in a "tier listing" and what characters would likely win a major tournament though I could be wrong. This is outside of SA discussion however so if you would like to know more feel free to PM me.
PPS: I am not editing or including any frame data until I see a few people tell me that the frame data has been tested and proven to be correct/accurate. Sorry but I am not a good tester and I would prefer if others more motivated than me do this with better and more accurate findings. I am much better as a person who helps you organize the data and show you what it could mean (not always correct either), or how to interpret it. If you are uncomfortable with replying here on the forums feel free to PM me. I will be more than happy to help.
Whoa. Maybe I missed some stuff, but I don't think anyone was saying the notation is God awful or anything. I thought it was good, albeit it confusing (blahblahblah w/o is usually without etc). Then I saw the guide, and I thought it was better. That is all.
It has nothing to do with a guide being the definitive source of information and it must be right because its a guide. It has to do with someone came up with an idea that is more intuitive than what has been working with. That said, a lot of people probably are already used to the W/O N/O notation, but a lot of people also probably haven't begun to look here who may in the future. No one method is "right." Whether people can/can't afford a guide should have nothing to do with it. If they don't have the guide, they use context clues and wiki and stickies to figure out VO VS notation, just as well as they can the W/O N/O notation. I don't see how that matters.
As for not editing frame data without concrete proof, I am thankful for that. I'd rather know the data I have is potentially incorrect rather than be told its fixed when its not >_>
It has nothing to do with a guide being the definitive source of information and it must be right because its a guide. It has to do with someone came up with an idea that is more intuitive than what has been working with. That said, a lot of people probably are already used to the W/O N/O notation, but a lot of people also probably haven't begun to look here who may in the future. No one method is "right." Whether people can/can't afford a guide should have nothing to do with it. If they don't have the guide, they use context clues and wiki and stickies to figure out VO VS notation, just as well as they can the W/O N/O notation. I don't see how that matters.
As for not editing frame data without concrete proof, I am thankful for that. I'd rather know the data I have is potentially incorrect rather than be told its fixed when its not >_>
Panther
[09] Warrior
I was not just referring to notation problems but a general problem prevalent throughout the forums (and from a lot of people) so I admit I went a bit off-topic there. Also it is hard to figure out VO VS without an explanation first either, because the first thing people see when you go "VS" would be "Versus?", same problem as "W/O". I agree with your explanations but there are certain things we should stick with on the matter of principle. For example, "Viola Set" sounds like Viola set herself somewhere on the ball in the stage and is looking at you with a condescending look or something.
And "Viola Orb", what? I hardly find that intuitive, honestly. That is what I think though so others may not agree. But the way some people have described it...you get what I mean.
Sethlon
[08] Mercenary
Both can be kind of confusing. Something like OV/OS for Orb Viola/Orb Set would be better imo.
Panther
[09] Warrior
Seems the frame data is accurate but is there more confirmation? Thanks for the little testing by the way Nyaga, I rather have some confirmation than none at all.
Aragh
[09] Warrior
Here is what i managed to accumulate/test. There are a lot of empty spaces, but hopefully you can find something useful in there. Im not completely sure about some of these numbers either.
Viola's Frame Data
Viola's Frame Data
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
.
CH W/O 4A is +3. Everything else i know you got.
Aragh
[09] Warrior
fixed, thx
Cla
LET'S FIGHTING!
What do you have to do to edit the Wiki? Aren't you supposed to be able to do so once you're a Premium Supporter? I would love to edit in Viola's Frame Data but I don't see the option to edit the Wiki page anywhere...
Destinizish
Now Sleep Forever
No need to worry about Viola's frame data. It'll be added soon enough.
Pretty sure you can't edit those wikis just because it has been abused in the past - and rather harshly.
Cla
LET'S FIGHTING!
You mean people seriously paid for Premium Membership and then threw it away over messing with the Wikis?
Ryder
[09] Warrior
You can connect 6K after SET A+G. So either the former is i19 or the latter grants +20.
Xenozip9
[08] Mercenary
Oh cool, the guide and sticky was missing SET 8A+B but I see you have it listed as -13
Thanks.
Cla
LET'S FIGHTING!
Anyone who is doing frame analyzing might as well pause until the March 21st patch cause who knows how they're gonna change Viola. Hopefully some buffs of course.
Destinizish
Now Sleep Forever
I'd personally like to see zero change (outside bug fixes). Viola's a character that I think is good right where she is ATM. She needs nothing to compete, and very much feels mid tier if not slightly better. Pretty much where most the cast should be.
Cla
LET'S FIGHTING!
What are you including when you "bug fixes"? Cause I would consider her combo inconsistency a bug that needs to be fixed.
I think that at the VERY LEAST her combos should be tweaked to actually connect more consistently. (actually, connect ALL THE TIME) Usually when you combo in games, you just perform each step one after the other as early as possible. Also because of this practice, you can usually buffer each step to make sure everything happens at the earliest possible frame, and the combo will naturally work out EVERYTIME. However, this is NOT the case with Viola. Pretty much of all of her damage combos rely on awkward & inconsistent delays made a million times worse when you try to take her online.
One of the reasons I like SET 3B, AAB, 9K, 2A+B is because it's how a combo SHOULD be. You buffer each command, which results in each attack happening at the earliest frame, which results in the combo ALWAYS connecting.
Yes, to a degree there should a sense of timing when it comes to difficult combos. But with how Viola is programmed now, there is no real sense. It's just seemingly random and non-nonsensical timing that you really can't predict nor work around consistently. (which is especially unacceptable for a game that banks on it's online play as well as offline) You shouldn't have to roll a dice because the game wasn't programmed right.
I think that at the VERY LEAST her combos should be tweaked to actually connect more consistently. (actually, connect ALL THE TIME) Usually when you combo in games, you just perform each step one after the other as early as possible. Also because of this practice, you can usually buffer each step to make sure everything happens at the earliest possible frame, and the combo will naturally work out EVERYTIME. However, this is NOT the case with Viola. Pretty much of all of her damage combos rely on awkward & inconsistent delays made a million times worse when you try to take her online.
One of the reasons I like SET 3B, AAB, 9K, 2A+B is because it's how a combo SHOULD be. You buffer each command, which results in each attack happening at the earliest frame, which results in the combo ALWAYS connecting.
Yes, to a degree there should a sense of timing when it comes to difficult combos. But with how Viola is programmed now, there is no real sense. It's just seemingly random and non-nonsensical timing that you really can't predict nor work around consistently. (which is especially unacceptable for a game that banks on it's online play as well as offline) You shouldn't have to roll a dice because the game wasn't programmed right.
Destinizish
Now Sleep Forever
IE: 44A BE orb not following through, 2B+K doing strange things at times, the BE doing strange things as well, 4A+B sometimes acting completely wrong... etc.
Combo timing has absolutely no place in the patch, as it's simply that - timing. There are other characters with more difficult stuff, and Viola's is hardly inconsistent. The only time it gets iffy is on 6A+B and 6A+B with slight hold (and this is largely because the game can glitch and cause a followup 2B+K to come out as a high). I've never had a problem anywhere else in a combo.
Otherwise, timing is the exact same on the entire cast and is only dependent on the launcher used to start the combo.
And online really has no weight in why things should be patched - especially timing that's made harder by online. Viola doesn't even have JFs. Let alone the 1 frame links people had to pull off in games like SF4 online which had WORSE netcode. In fact I can think of several examples across many fighters where you couldn't simply buffer combos and needed some kind of timing. Many in SC, as well. It's just a matter of getting used to it.