Xianghua Matchup Chart

Just curious as to why X vs Talim is even in your opinion. I personally think X has a clear enough advantage to make it a 6:4 for her.
 
What do you mean by a 'clear advantage'?

Perhaps when I understand that, I can give a meaningful response.
 
Xianghua out ranges Talim for the most part. Her i11 AAs can punish almost everything that doesn't force crouch. X gets decent punishes off of most of Talim's moves (4K, 66B+K). X's 44B is still a threat due to range issues, even though Talim has options to beat it. She has better throws. Plus, she just deals more damage than Talim overall, with the exception being post-step.

Also, her 4A+B aGI is really effective against a lot of Talim's strings, since she has a lot of thrusting verticals and 80% of her horizontals are highs.

Talim has a better RO game, post-GI game (unless near a wall), and punishment post-step. Other than that though, X just beats her in every other category in my opinion.

Maybe there's something I've missed that gives Talim an even matchup here. It if is, I certainly won't complain. Talim needs more even matchups.
 
zeroeffect: Yes X out ranges talim. But talim has solid and consistent answers to X's spacingm unlike many characters. If X can apply her spacing game in a matchup, its very dangerous because she has Step B. Its a wall... literally. so unless you have a longer range horizontal (Asta 66A/4A Sieg WSAA/ Lizzy 66A) that can beat that wall before it its a problem... Some characters like yoshi have difficult answers to punish step B on whiff i.e FC3K. Talim has an easy to apply 66A as a whiff punisher for that and it does good damage, and gives a knockdown for her to start her game. She can also bait and punish 3B and 44A+B well. So getting in is not hopeless. You jsut need to strategise to bait these out to punish. So getting in is not a problem, as she has solid options.

Talim can punish a lot of Xianghua's evasive options hard, if she backdashes and then steps ( 4*2_8) at advantage. Many things whiff, like 44B and 1B+K. Thats a free 236B there or 22B attempt, provided she does not do the auto-GI... Im sure she would have some other moves to stuff it.... only AAB or 44A can beat attempts to bait sidestepping. So yes 44B is a thraet, but at high level play, baiting of such moves is a conscious effort... and talim can punish 44B very hard.... she has pretty high damage potential.

I am actually of the opinion that talim does slightly more damage than X, but just less range.

I think you have to factor in how movement can be applied to deal with a matchup. I also udnerstand how you see talim isnt as good as X... but Talim has an impressive set of pokes IMO. sadly, from exp i have seen very few western players with terrific poking ability to demonstrate such things.

Franman:
saitoh got it half right.

Zas is a nightmare in terms of zone control.

Its bad imo because X has to run through several walls to get into zas. She cant block zas' attacks all the time. SHe will get CFed. So to beat them she has to step them or duck them.... The problem about X's stepping whiff punishers in this matchup is that she has to fully commit to stepping to be able to do step B at the LATEST time to whiff punish. Step guard is not so good because Zas has many strings... where the second hit will track if you tap G. so 4B+K or BB can be a problem if you step G to attempt FC3B or 3B for whiff punish. The danger of fully commiting to step is that you are open to 44A/4A/6A.

I feel that the other half is that his poking game EATS X.

zas is placed quite low in foreign tierlists because understanding of poking in SC is quite low at the moment. Its because there must be a study of what your opponent can throw out after a move hits, and what you can do to shut down as many options as you can.

Poking at Zas' BB range is very stupid for X.... since he can apply it easier, thanks to his range. And X cant just 44B or whatever stupidly... any whiff, and a good zas will move and FC3B the hell out of you or launch you in any other way.... 4B+K is also a problem. shuts down too much shit. I will test more and give a more concrete response in the future... butyou get the gist of it. I actually feel Zas is a better character than Xianghua... just ill understood because there is not much of a mixup.
 
yes! somebody confirmed my suggestion that yun vs X is 3:7!

But. Maybe I'm missing something, but how do you manage a 5:5 vs Amy? Is it b/c of crybaby???
 
ShenYuan said:
zeroeffect: Talim has solid and consistent answers to X's spacing unlike many characters. If X can apply her spacing game in a matchup, its very dangerous because she has Step B. Talim has an easy to apply 66A as a whiff punisher for that and it does good damage, and gives a knockdown for her to start her game. She can also bait and punish 3B and 44A+B well. So getting in is not hopeless. You jsut need to strategise to bait these out to punish. So getting in is not a problem, as she has solid options.
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I agree with everything here. I never said that spacing was a major issue for Talim vs X, because it's not. As you said she can get in with relative ease. And yeah it's true you can bait 44B, 3B, etc... but there's the problem. Now we're talking high level player strats, rather than the concept of character matchups, which is based more on tools and situations, than player adaptation. The very fact that X has moves threatening enough that the Talim player has to play around them, whereas Talim really doesn't have moves to make X have to strategize, shows she has better options in those situations.

ShenYuan said:
Talim can punish a lot of Xianghua's evasive options hard, if she backdashes and then steps ( 4*2_8) at advantage. Many things whiff, like 44B and 1B+K. Thats a free 236B there or 22B attempt, provided she does not do the auto-GI... Im sure she would have some other moves to stuff it.... only AAB or 44A can beat attempts to bait sidestepping. So yes 44B is a thraet, but at high level play, baiting of such moves is a conscious effort... and talim can punish 44B very hard.... she has pretty high damage potential. I am actually of the opinion that talim does slightly more damage than X, but just less range.
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Absolutely. Talim can whiff punish with the best of them. I'm glad you see that, cause I've been trying to convince people of this for months now. Again though, baiting is a player skill, not a character tool. That's why X's 44B as a tool is a threat. Just like Kilik's Asura, in the sense that you always have to consider it as an option. Talim can do more damage than X, but it's at specific times, (I mentioned post-step, post-GI, and CH). But X does more damage on NH with less risk.

ShenYuan said:
I think you have to factor in how movement can be applied to deal with a matchup. I also udnerstand how you see talim isnt as good as X... but Talim has an impressive set of pokes IMO.
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And yes, movement is important. I try to factor in those things as well when considering matchups. But X's movement is really good too. Her step is slightly better than Talim's I think. Not sure about backstep.

But yeah, it just seems like that even though Talim has solid options to deal with X's stuff, she ultimately has to approach the matchup more strategically and cautiously than X does in order to contend with her. It's actually similar to the Talim vs Amy matchup in that regard. That's why I see it as advantage for X.


Also, what pokes are you referring to that Talim has? I feel as though her pokes aren't great at all, personally. I guess 6B, 4B, and 2A maybe, but they're all useless outside of close range. Are there other moves you are talking about that make up Talim's decent poking options?
 
ShenYuan: Hey :) Couldn't catch you elsewhere, but we have to discuss about Zasalamel, against Xianghua especially. I played a lot of Zasalamel against X. I agree that his poking game is just great, but I don't think it kills X's because she still has 2K (I believe same range as Zas') 3A, 6B and CT.

Another thing is that X is an annoying punisher of a lot of Zasalamel's moves. Especially, the reverse RO game of Zas becomes very dangerous for him. He cannot fish for a 4B or 3AB CH anymore because 4K will RO him haha.
BB gets punished at all range (especially BB4 although you can confirm the hit).
Also, some of his horizontals are somehow steppable and highs (btw isn't 22B tech crouch? could it become a possibility?).

CF + 4B+K are the real problems IMO. And that's why she is probably in disadvantage.
Anyway, we should discuss it on MSN haha.


Hello Belial, yes, crybaby kills a lot of wake-up opportunities. Couple that with consistant JU on 66B and 236KK and Amy loses a huge part of her brokenness. Besides, X has great throws which are good against Amy, she also has CT on 2B+K. She is as fast as Amy. And Step B is GOD tier against her zoning and mix-ups (although Amy is the only character that can punish it). Generally, she deals better than most characters against her mix-ups, thanks to her evasive moves, WSK and AAB. Personnally, I see a 6-4 for X, but I have to think about it much more than that as I don't know the match-up well enough (especially I have to know the risk vs reward on post-poke mix-ups for both characters).
 
Rza: Had to supress the desire to live up to my sig xD
hehe, anyway we've already discussed that with Yuan on MSN xD
Just remember - Amy won Cannes xD 6:4 my ass.
 
*facepalm* Poor Yuan, having a guy like you on MSN, don't be too mean with him! hahaha


And no, thuggish won the tournament, not his character. Seriously, that's your main argument? :)
But yeah, 6-4 seems exaggerated, just because Amy is top tier. But X seems built to compete against that bitch, 5-5 seems definitely fair.
 
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