Z.W.E.I. General Discussion/Q&A

[sephalump]

I found a really nice gimmick involving B+K BE.

If you activate the BE and follow up with another B+K, Ein comes out to do the usual B+K attack. After that though Ein actually does pop up once more to do the earlier BE move. In case the B+K hit and you got a kd, Ein will be late enough to not whiff above the grounded opponent. Pretty nice mindfuck.

So far B+K is the only move I found this works with, maybe there's more to it.

Hm that's actually really interesting. I'll check out some other moves with it or see if you can cancel certain Ein summons into B+K BE tomorrow. Good find man.

 

[Goofy]

Spoiler

here's something that i've discovered.. i haven't seen it posted yet.. so i'm taking credit for it lol

1(B)hold it till he's automatically released, A+G, 4B BE, 66A+B, 1B- does about 100 damage...

here's a vid

The moment any good Pyrrha player sees a 1B, you're getting stabbed for 60ish. Also, anyone who lets you get away with an A-grab while holding 1B is not worth playing. Please, let the gimmicks die.

In terms of B+K BE, if the opponent 2A's/pokes, Ein gets stuffed and there goes 50% meter for nothing. Really hope they fix that because to a knowledgeable player, it's just another gimmick.

Also, why'd the Patch/Wishlist thread get locked? I understand it got a bit off-topic/heated but I think it's crucial for us Zwei players to come together and get ideas flowing on how to make this character at least semi-high-level-play viable.

 

[Belial]

The moment any good Pyrrha player sees a 1B, you're getting stabbed for 60ish. Also, anyone who lets you get away with an A-grab while holding B is not worth playing. Please, let the gimmicks die.

In terms of B+K BE, if the opponent 2A's, Ein gets stuffed and there goes 50% meter for nothing. Really hope they fix that because to a knowledgeable player, it's just another gimmick.

Also, why'd the Patch/Wishlist thread get locked? I understand it get a bit off-topic/heated but I think it's a good idea to get some ideas flowing on how to make this character at least semi-high-level-play viable.

Not necessarily. First its the same as 2B , second its not really possible to detect if its 1B or B I think.

I soo second this on patch/wishlist thread.

But, I think we cannot really ask for stuff like "make this move faster" or "make this more range" - i dont think this can be patched.

I think we should ask for better frame data and/or properties

Overall I think the main trouble of ZWEI is stupidly bad punishment. Characters who cannot punish -16 in this game are doomed to eternal cocksucking. Also very often he cannot punish even the most stupidest unsafes b/c he has 0 range.

6B - give some kind of stun that guarantees AA or something. This would make his punishment slightly better. If it were possible to improve range on this, that'd be priceless. Also right now I dont even understand this move. This is one of the worst moves in the game. no range, no damage, high. even standing K is better.

1K* - 2nd hit shouldnt be steppable, and it should be possible to delay EIN, i think

Also, I cannot comprehend design behind 33B. Super slow, unsafe move that doesnt do any damage (btw A] followup also turned out to be character AND angle dependant). shouldnt it be at least slightly buffed?

His combos are so retardedly inconsistant, it is just lame. Why some characters can be picked up with CE and other cannot? Why 1K* second hit would randomly wiff on some characters but not other? You waste meter which is precious for ZWEI and get a wiff. Why would 1K be in range against some characters but not other when combo is the same? I understand angle-dependancy. I understand when there are combos for small char and combos for large chars. Its stupid but we have to live with it. But when char dep is so random - its plain dumb. You seem to never get better combos on anyone, it just gets worse and worse as you explore the cast.
Overall some ZWEI moves just need some better hitbox, really. As most of those wiffs have to do with that.

Just to name a few
4B*! 3B! seem to not work on astaroth
A+B! 3B - doesnt work on cervantes (3B wiffs)
22K, 4KB - doesnt work on viola
CH 1B],3AA 1K - 1K wiffs on many characters
Almost every combo with 1K* in it is character AND angle dependant, making either 1K or EIN hit wiff.

 

[Colaya]

Hm that's actually really interesting. I'll check out some other moves with it or see if you can cancel certain Ein summons into B+K BE tomorrow. Good find man.

I posted about this weird property a couple weeks ago in the combo discussion thread... Unfortunately, the only Ein-compatible move that cancels with B+K BE is B+K... I tested it myself fairly extensively... :/

So yeah it's extremely impractical... And just falls under the gimmicky ZWEI crap that won't even work semi-consistently in actual matches.

 

[Goofy]

Not necessarily. First its the same as 2B , second its not really possible to detect if its 1B or B I think.

For me personally, I only had trouble with 1B when I didn't have the timing down on ducking and punishing/using a TC move but now it's fairly easy. I will admit though that mixing in B] with 1B] can be effective, not so much for 2B imo.

I soo second this on patch/wishlist thread.

But, I think we cannot really ask for stuff like "make this move faster" or "make this more range" - i dont think this can be patched.

I think we should ask for better frame data and/or properties

Thanks and I feel like somebody "in the know" needs to step-up and lay out what exactly can and cannot be done with a patch because then these balancing/patch wishlist discussions would have some much needed foundation.


And now, until the Patch Wishlist thread gets unlocked/remade, I want to post my own list of ideas(and others) that I think would help make Zwei a viable character to play at a high level. All of this will be under the assumption that every property of a move can be changed(no replacing/adding new moves). Disclaimer: this is probably going to be sloppy/not very specific but I just wanted to get the ideas out there and then build upon them later.

Spoiler: Giant, Messy, Unarticulative Patch Wishlist

(A): Ein follow-up grounds airborne(like 1B Ein follow-up), more frame advantage on block.
6A: Make it faster and/or more frames on NH, less unsafe.
3AA: This move is too slow and way too unsafe as it is. Imo, one of the bigger holes in Zwei's game is step-kill and I think buffing this move to be faster/less unsafe would be a massive improvement to his overall game. Also, to borrow a great idea from C_3, adding the ability to transition into Knife Fiend would be an intuitive and much needed mix-up addition.
1A: This move is beyond ridiculously slow/unsafe(a pattern perhaps? -_-). Possible ways to buff it would be the obvious make it faster, make it less unsafe depending on how much faster(or if not faster then I say make it safe/positive), increase the guard gauge damage, and/or add an ability to cancel into FC or transition into Knife Fiend.
4(A): Personally, I feel like if the opponent makes the mistake of not stepping the Ein follow-up then they should be punished by increasing the frame-advantage and/or guard gauge damage. Also, some other improvements: increase in range, safer(-14), CH guaranteeing the Ein follow-up into whatever(damage should be scaled-down accordingly).
WS A: Buff the speed, crumple stun on CH, and/or add a transition into Knife Fiend.
66A_66A BE: Buff the speed and range for christ's sake(take away the KD on NH if necessary and possibly add a transition into Knife Fiend). As for the BE version, I can't honestly say I've ever used it so yeah. Maybe remove the cooldown for Ein so you can put on some serious pressure and/or guard gauge damage.
22_88A: First off, why the fuck did they decide to make it TS left regardless of the input? Bunch of fuckery. Improvements: buff range, SAFETY, and/or speed. Super wishful-thinking: hit mid, 22A as a true inverse(TS right).
11_77_44A: I side with the majority opinion, buff the range.

6B:

6B - give some kind of stun that guarantees AA or something. This would make his punishment slightly better. If it were possible to improve range on this, that'd be priceless. Also right now I dont even understand this move. This is one of the worst moves in the game. no range, no damage, high. even standing K is better.

100% agreed. They should either significantly increase the range of this move or increase the damage potential as you suggested(maybe even higher on CH) because atm this move serves no damn purpose. In super wishful-thinking mode, I'd love if this move gained similar properties to Mitsu's 6B or 68B xD

3B:

There are just some things that don't make much sense. For instance, I still cannot understand why his 3B is that unsafe. Does it lead to that high damaging combos that other characters' 3Bs don't? Does it have that great range? Does it have any special properties (TC for example)?

That pretty much sums-up my thoughts on 3B. Improvements: Significantly buff the range, combo with 4A+B or B+K on CH.
1B: Pretty much the same sentiments as 4(A), if they make the mistake of not ducking then they deserve to be punished with significant disadvantage or guard gauge damage. Some other improvements: make it faster, safer. In super wishful-thinking mode, give it a OTG and/or air-hit stun so if it hits a grounded/airborne opponent it either guarantees the K follow-up into Ein or it creates a force block(cannot roll).
4B_4B BE: slight range or damage buff, i16 please.
WR B: Buff speed(nerf damage accordingly).
66BA: Wouldn't mind it being slightly faster, add cancel into Knife Fiend(credit C_3).

33B_33B BE:

Also, I cannot comprehend design behind 33B. Super slow, unsafe move that doesnt do any damage (btw A] followup also turned out to be character AND angle dependant). shouldnt it be at least slightly buffed?

Again, agreed. There seems to be a overarching theme of a majority of his moves being "one-note". Some ideas to buff it would be not making it so unreasonably safe, increasing the damage potential(combo with 4A+B?), and/or buff the BE version's follow-up so that it functions similar to Mitsu's 3B BE(punish those who try to punish). Also on a personal aesthetic note, make the BE follow-up ground an airborne opponent(like Mitsu 236B BE). I can't stand when it launches and then Ein comes out to punch them...to send them floating once more...yuck.
22BB: This may sound crazy but, make it a NC on NH. I've found myself wishing so many times that it was and then getting punished. Tone down the damage as necessary. Also, fix the whiffing shenanigans, not cool getting caught with my pants on the ground as the sword goes right-fucking-through them.
11_77_44B: This move screams of gimmicky fuckery. The only way I can see to improve this is by making it more like SCIV Asta's 3B so that you could charge it to fake them out and then release before they commit to stepping.


6K: maybe better push-back on block.
3K: Raaaaaaange, buff it. If not, a knockback on NH like Asta's bullrush or a crumple stun on CH would be very nice.
1K_1K BE:

1K* - 2nd hit shouldnt be steppable, and it should be possible to delay EIN, I think.

Love this idea, agreed. As for super wishful-thinking, 1K being safer and hitting low would be very nice hah. Whiffing issues need to be dealt with.
4KB: I don't see the use for this move. It has shit range, it's stupidly unsafe, and leads to nothing. Ideas for improvement: make it more safe, launch on CH and combo with A+B(credit C_3)
WR K: Range buff, crumple stun on CH.
33_99_66K: Range buff, stun on CH similar to 22K.
11_77K: Crumple stun on CH, faster or safer.
44K: Cannot find a use for it. Make it faster definitely, maybe CH stun similar to 22K? xD

A+B: safer? :D
8A+B: Idk, I hate the animation for this move.
4A+B_4(A+B): why must these be so unsafe?
66A+B: buff speed maybe?

B+K_ B+K BE: I would love if they buffed the "comboability" of this move or launched on CH. As for B+K BE, I would love it if it actually worked 100% of the time and would not be "deactivated" after blocking something. Super wishful-thinking: works regardless of cooldown.
6B+K: Haven't seen a use for this yet since the recovery is atrocious so buff that or allow the full string to work on block. Super wishful-thinking: 6(B+K) tracks.
66B+K: Buff range.
44B+K: Useless, either make the cancel recovery faster or add a cancel option into Knife Fiend.

Grabs: If at all possible, increase his grab range and remove the cooldown mechanic for Zwei's B-grab so that it works regardless of cooldown(always the full version) and doesn't set Ein on cooldown. Another possibility would be that if Ein is on cooldown and you go for a B-grab, you automatically get the (B+G) version so you'd still have mix-up potential. Either way, remove the B-grab setting Ein on cooldown.

Stance Knife Fiend: In general, it's very disappointing and I don't see how they could improve upon it without adding moves to it or replacing the existing ones with better options(no idea if this is possible). If we're stuck with sKF A and sKF B then I'd say buff the speed on sKF A and give it a crumple stun on hit and make the stun on sKF B +15 so B held could follow-up. If possible, make sKF A BEable so it has the same follow-up as 3A BE.

That's all I can come up with for now. I'll revise it tomorrow.

 

[Uber1337]

good posts. i like those changes, he certainly needs something. now all we need is some scrubs
who have never played a high level player in their life to get on here and tell us Zwei is fine and that we just don't know how to use him

And Belial, 1B and B are semi reactable. I can't really see it enough to be able to TC or step on reaction, but I can usually stop myself from going for the TC punish in time if i see B instead. But then again, i play a lot of Zwei, so i see those moves a lot. I wish 2B wasn't so retarded. Why the hell is that move disadvantage on hit. And he ends in FC, but his WR moves are SOO slow or have tiny range. Moves like 2B make me think Namco intended him to be awful.

 

[Lasercakes]

So when you do B+K BE, Zwei's B+G only does 30 damage 'cause Ein doesn't participate. HOWEVER, it seems that with perfect timing, you CAN get Ein to hit during the B+G throw for about 76 damage. The problem is that I can't figure out the right amount of delay, since you can't do a B throw while holding B+K.

Actually with perfect timing you can get the b+kBE to hit, delay or not, with any throw attempt even if they break, but good luck with the awkward timing in a real match.

 

[Lasercakes]

6B - give some kind of stun that guarantees AA or something. This would make his punishment slightly better. If it were possible to improve range on this, that'd be priceless. Also right now I dont even understand this move. This is one of the worst moves in the game. no range, no damage, high. even standing K is better.

It's -11 on just guard, which is pretty good I think. It tracks left entirely and it's pretty good on block. On block, it gives a realistic window to hit with 66B+K. Has more range than 2A and gives better advantage on hit than K, 3K, BB, 8B. It can be used to enforce his frames actually characters like Pyrrha. It also has good recovery frames that make it practically whiff safe. I don't think it's completely useless as a poke.

Also, I cannot comprehend design behind 33B. Super slow, unsafe move that doesnt do any damage (btw A] followup also turned out to be character AND angle dependant). shouldnt it be at least slightly buffed?

It has a pretty good TC window. I might even say really good TC window. I have not been fighting the toughest Siegs out there, but I gotta say it makes it a lot harder for him to zone me. He can punish with K, but 33B BE makes the TC window or his hit box even more retarded and the K will whiff and he will eat the BE. Yeah I know it's a gimmick that doesn't really add to its merit as a move, but I thought it was funny enough to add. I don't think the move besides the damage is that bad. It TCs and steps. It doesn't entirely lose to step and it's even safe to Pyrrha stabs at tip range.

 

[Zig21]

Actually with perfect timing you can get the b+kBE to hit, delay or not, with any throw attempt even if they break, but good luck with the awkward timing in a real match.

Are you sure about Ein hitting even if they break? I tested it yesterday, and it seems that if the opponent breaks a throw, Ein's summon is negated, just like if they had hit Zwei.

Also, I cannot comprehend design behind 33B. Super slow, unsafe move that doesnt do any damage (btw A] followup also turned out to be character AND angle dependant). shouldnt it be at least slightly buffed?

The one big thing 33B seems to have going for it is that the BE window is really big, so you can use it to bait people into getting hit by Ein by intentionally whiffing it. Otherwise, yeah, it's not great.

 

[Belial]

The one big thing 33B seems to have going for it is that the BE window is really big, so you can use it to bait people into getting hit by Ein by intentionally whiffing it. Otherwise, yeah, it's not great.

You cant, b/c 33B is unsafe (-14) and every punishment hits way before EIN starts to hit.

I realize ZWEI was sort of designed in a way he doesnt become overpowered. If his 1A was faster it would be too devastating and allowed for a traps with EIN etc.
So like I said I dont think much impovement must or even can be made.
But definitely his combos must be made consistant and i16 punishment with at least some range is a must.

 

[Lasercakes]

Are you sure about Ein hitting even if they break? I tested it yesterday, and it seems that if the opponent breaks a throw, Ein's summon is negated, just like if they had hit Zwei.

I'll be honest. I didn't test it for very long. And I wasn't any where near the lab when writing up that post. Just something I remembered. I would've tested it longer if the timing wasn't so dumb. If I can remember correctly, you're aiming for instant the throw makes contact with your opponent so that Ein knocks them out of your throw. This way they are locked into being thrown, but shouldn't be able to break it yet.

You cant, b/c 33B is unsafe (-14) and every punishment hits way before EIN starts to hit.

No input on my post about 33B?

 

[babalook]

I think that after 3B and 1K BE that the 1(B) hit K force block should work on all characters not just a few, B+G should not be effected by ein cool down or cause it, 1(B) make the K follow up come out much faster so if your opponent does duck the ein attack the punishment window is much smaller(this would help with the force block setup too), 4KB should be safe, 1K BE should jail, 1K should be safe, 3B needs a increased hit box or hit grounded or become safer. I also wouldn't mind if A+B gave a ground slide on air and ground hit that leaves you at the same kind of oki advantage 66BK does so you could go for B+K BE oki, there just aren't enough ways to force B+K BE oki after knock downs due to shitty oki advantage (A+B,4A+B) or ein cool down (B+G) i think this would be a huge help.

 

[babalook]

after 66BA B+K BE 1K is a force block unless they tech back On ground hit and standing hit the 1K links into the ein attack then into a free 66A+B and if they block the ein attack 66B cannot be beaten out or stepped

 

[Belial]

after 66BA B+K BE 1K is a force block unless they tech back on. On ground hit and standing hit the 1K links into the ein attack then into a free 66A+B and if they block the ein attack 66B cannot be beaten out of stepped

gdlk actually, just tried this and agains unknowing opponent it works like charm.

 

[Lasercakes]

If you guys didn't know this try this out for me. Getting a connection on campus takes more luck than I have right now. I can't patch the game. B+K BE mechanics may have changed. It does an embarrassing amount of damage prerelease patch. Guarding an attack still cancelled the BE, but jGuard still lets it happen. Maybe this'll open up a few more gimmicky setups where 2A would stuff B+K BE.

 

[Gokudo]

I just want to know what is the god damn difference between
B+K Be or $ or *
And
[B+K] Be or $ or *

it doesn't seem to be the damage so may you explain this to a fool like me, zwei geeks :p ?

 

[XOmegaGold]

I think your notation might be a bit off, do you mean B+K BE vs [B+K] BE? The ! signifies a wall splat.

 

[Gokudo]

yes sorry i will change it because i mean BE. I saw ! for be on a Spanish combo video and w! for wall but i edit my first post.

 

[Hayate]

EIN will come sooner with the B+K version, while he will come later with [B+K] allowing more combo/advantage but less safety.

Some combo only works with one of the two version.

[B+K]:BE A+G A+B (or CE)
B+K:BE B+K 4B EIN etc..

 

[Hayate]

B+K:BE 214B will let less time to combo after. I suggest [B+K]:BE (the charged version) so you do 66A+B or even 1A to catch ground and Tech trap to 120++

Also the CE will combo only with [B+K]:BE.