Z.W.E.I. Patch/Wishlist

dittO

[09] Warrior
The purpose of this thread is to highlight some issues/problems this character has. If by any chance a future patch is released for this game regarding balancing issues, then I believe gathering as much info as we can in one thread, may be useful for the developers to rebalance this character in a more effective way. We should not turn this into a whine thread, instead just observations and things to get fixed/changed.

My first general impressions after having played Zwei for about a week are the following (each attribute always compared to the rest of the cast):

SPEED: His main pokes are just ok. His AA is good, BB has some whiffing problems, 2A has below average range and perhaps is a bit slower than other 2As (not entirely sure), 2K is just ok, not the best range though.

DAMAGE: His damage in general is below average. Not to mention that most of the times he has to risk a bit or more in order to deal that damage.

SAFETY: Zwei is generally unsafe. Many of his mid options are at least BB punishable or worse. I don't even bother talk about his lows.

PUNISH: I don't even know what to say about his ways to punish...6B? WS K? 3K?

MIXUPS: His throw/mid mixup is ok. Not that good that I initially thought, mainly because of many unsafe mids. Also his throw range seems also below average. His Ein mixups seem good at first glance but once people get used to them, you have to mix the mixup...always with a bit or more risk.

GUARD BREAK: I won't comment here yet because I don't feel I have the required experience so far. However, I have noticed that there are MANY characters that seem to be able to guard break way better than Zwei.

RANGE: He can play decently in close and mid range, but he doesn't seem to be that good in any of them.

That's my overview for a start.
In future posts (after having more/better experience) I'll be more move-specific, I expect more people do the same.
 

OmegaXCN

[10] Knight
I'd be happy if they give him a few more faster transitions to Ein summon. Right now they're a bit slow and unsafe, especially if you hold down the button to try to rush down while Ein is on standby ready to attack upon button release.
 

Silmerion

[09] Warrior
What Z.W.E.I. needs is more reward for his high-risk style. I'd like better/more lows, so that his mix-ups from E.I.N. can be scarier.
 

ShenYuan

[10] Knight
Read the above. My god, i have to disagree with you all. ZWEI is really, really good. One of the best keep outs in the game, the best while standing attack and monster mid-range mids. And he is NOT high risk. Any buff to him would be silly. HE is a strong, perfectly balanced character.
 

Silmerion

[09] Warrior
Read the above. My god, i have to disagree with you all. ZWEI is really, really good. One of the best keep outs in the game, the best while standing attack and monster mid-range mids. And he is NOT high risk. Any buff to him would be silly. HE is a strong, perfectly balanced character.
I sure hope you're right.
 

RamenO

[08] Mercenary
66B+K being safe on block, crossing over more consistently, and more range on 44A are the only things I'd honestly want at this point.
 

TadeMasu

[08] Mercenary
The only thing I would want changed with him is having EIN's delay lessened. That would make for some interesting combos. Other than that, I'm happy with him.
 

Pleportamee

[08] Mercenary
It would be awesome if he had a move where Ein hits low from a distance. (1b distance) This would allow medium range mixups. Also, it would be great if B+K was fast enough to punish consistently. Basically, I think if they are going to make ZWEI have such a laughable movelist they should buff up Ein a little more to compensate.

Of course, it could be that I just suck with ZWEI---but man does it seem like I'm working WAY harder than my opponent does just to use/get around simple tactics.
 

ShenYuan

[10] Knight
66B+K should NOT be safe on block. IT jumps mids and lows and throws! For a move to do that much, it has to have risk. there is no such thing as an evasive move of that degree that's safe. Look at the whole movelist. Why should ZWEI be so special?

Ein having faster recovery is a bad idea. 4[A] is +21 on hit and -10 on block. That's already ridiculous lol
 

dittO

[09] Warrior
Read the above. My god, i have to disagree with you all. ZWEI is really, really good. One of the best keep outs in the game, the best while standing attack and monster mid-range mids. And he is NOT high risk. Any buff to him would be silly. HE is a strong, perfectly balanced character.
Ok, I may sounded a bit dramatic in the first post...and I probably was, since I emphasized mostly on the cons.
Yes, his keep out game is definitely good. Perhaps even a bit annoying against characters that don't have the necessary range to interrupt/reach him.
WSB's damage and reverse RO effect will make opponent think twice before making their high choice. Although I'd prefer that the TC frames of this move didn't end before it hit :/
A+B has multiple uses. Even the input of this move makes it more useful.

Some problems start to occur when opponent reacts correctly to some Ein summoning moves (4(A)/1(B)), stepping TCing etc (mostly when close to ZWEI, because if they are further away it's a different story for both), and that's when you have to be either a bit risky either conservative.

Personally I wouldn't mind If moves like 3B, 4A, 1B were a bit safer and perhaps something about 44A...I don't know, at first I thought this move could be used as a "44B", meaning retreat and ranged hit. However, it doesn't have neither good retreat properties nor good range...
 

TerminusEst13

[09] Warrior
1: I mostly just want a poke that comes out fast and has decent range. 3K is good except for a lack of range, 6B has a bit of a startup and a horrible cooldown, and 4A...actually, 4A's kind of cool.

2: I don't agree that 66B+K should be safe on block, but for a move that evades AND attacks it doesn't really do either too hot. Your opponent just needs to move a nanometer ahead, and you'll either A: Flop in their face while wiping your ass on their lips and then land directly in front of them while grovelling for them not to hit you or B: Land twenty miles behind them, swinging at empty air and essentially waving your ass at them while singing "Beat It".

3: 44A's range and retreat is just abysmal.

4: WR B would be cooler if it came out a bit faster, but that's kind of a silly wish just because.

5: EIN needs to have a top hat. This is the most important change needed.
 

IKARI263

[08] Mercenary
the only things he needs are faster recovery out of the EIN summon animation, and a more solid low game. other than that ZWEI's true strength comes from player knowledge. like ShenYuan said he is a very solid character
 

C_3

[09] Warrior
Things I would love to see change with ZWEI:

3A hold 4 to go into stance
4A becomes a mid, combos into EIN upon immediate release
66BA hold, transition into stance safetly
Step K becomes a mid
33 or 99 B leads to 4 A+B on hit
Step B (unfinished) becomes safe
1K becomes a low
1A has faster startup, gains high crush properties once he starts ducking (if it doesn't already)
6B on CH leads to 4B or 3A B.E., 1K B.E.,etc.
2B is at least+1 on hit
Guaranteed 1K after 4B (aka. 4B can't be ukemi'd)
More range and hit advantage on 2k
4KB launches on CH to A+B
11 or 77K has more hit advantage, crumples on CH and gives a free 2K
Gains a low from his stance, crumples on hit, leads to 4B or 3A B.E., etc.
 

dittO

[09] Warrior
4A becomes a mid, combos into EIN upon immediate release
I think that would be too much... :)

Personally, I wouldn't mind If WSA were a few frames faster (about 3 to 5 frames), so I wouldn't be interrupted after a 2A on hit.
 

Ruekaen

[08] Mercenary
Preferred changes
-1A and 66BA cancels into kF stance by (A).
-1A is goddamn positive. If it's gonna take a year it's gotta be safe.
-11 44 77 A has more range.
-B+K (BE) comes out guaranteed after 15 frames. I'm willing for them to take out 15 damage if it means I don't have to waste meter on one of the few good mix-up tools I have.
Necessary changes
-4A on CH combos on instant release. iR should stagger fall on CH. Seriously that should already be in.
-Less recovery on Zwei from Ein summoning. Not a lot but some so I can make some mix up.
-Front B throw becomes something similar to front A throw. Soon everyone will be teching A throw, and B throw becomes complete ass when used with Ein mix-up/pressure
And last but not least
-When Ein is being held, you can still use that throw of the button you're holding. No point to having throw hotkeys on the pad if one won't work in mixup. Can't count the number times when I started I did 4(A) and wanted to A throw but all I would do is guard.

Other than that, I believe he's fine. I might have gone a bit overboard, but a few of those were just to make knife fiend stance useful.
 

maxflax

[09] Warrior
A command throw that summons Ein to grab the opponenet and throw him to you, allowing something like A+B to combo.
Also, shorter cooldown for Ein.
 

Iaresamurai

[08] Mercenary
Read the above. My god, i have to disagree with you all. ZWEI is really, really good. One of the best keep outs in the game, the best while standing attack and monster mid-range mids. And he is NOT high risk. Any buff to him would be silly. HE is a strong, perfectly balanced character.
I'm going to have to agree here. Been playing him since release, and, though it took a lot more effort than learning other characters, I'm really enjoying his playstyle. Honestly, if there were anything to give Zwei, I'd say maybe a low hit (maybe 2A, or something of that nature) from his Knife-Stance.
Ideally, it would have a knockdown effect, like a sweep (or even a stun, but that might be too much), and it would be like 44A, without the step back. It wouldn't make him overpowered or anything, as Knife-Stance is quite slow on its own. But, if you can train the opponent to block while Ein is out, it would make for some interesting mixups with 4B(hold), as 44A lacks good range, 2K is meh, and 1A is incredibly react-able and slow.
Overall, it would simply add to his mixup game. Other than that, I find him very viable, and incredibly fun. Sorry for rambling.

Edit: just realized C_3 mentioned exactly this in one of his posts. Sorry, dude. Didn't see it when I made the post, haha.
 
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Pleportamee

[08] Mercenary
I started SCV with ZWEI, and I had below a 20% win ratio. I switched to Nightmare, and now I'm winning 70% of my matches. The potential may be there for ZWEI, but he's a tough nut to crack IMO. I really wish he had a good low with decent range.

Either way, I'll probably invest some more time with him and make him a secondary after a while.