bushindu
[11] Champion
IMO zwei is pretty nice, but I would like certain moves eg 44a to have more range, and moves like 99B BE to have a quicker recovery time out of the 99b
Z.W.E.I. Patch/Wishlist
- Thread starter dittO
- Start date
I only played SCIV briefly, so i don't know any characters starting out in SCV. I wanted to use new characters, so i learned ZWEI. I've gotten good with ZWEI, and still lose a lot - sometimes i can't even stop someone when they're predictable. That's how unbalanced Zwei is. Anyone who says he is just fine is absolutely wrong. I feel he is the worst character in the game. As some would say, "Low Tier".
He relies too heavily on EIN to make his moves safe, give him range, and give him mix-ups. Unfortunately EIN doesn't help his mix-ups much since he has no good lows. EIN just helps to make the opponent block and damage their guard gauge, ZWEI's only strength. He has no low mix-ups whatsoever and barely an okizeme game.
That's the main thing he needs is a good low or two that hits grounded. He's slow, considerably weak, predictable, unsafe, has little range, and lacks guaranteed damage. Most of his combos aren't guaranteed AND take a lot of meter. A lot of his guaranteed combos are only guaranteed on CH. No other character is that flawed. He is unbalanced and needs buffed.
Pleportamee
[08] Mercenary
Yeah Zwei is pretty bad.
He just dosen't seem like he has anything that can keep the other player "honest" like other characters can.
I've seen alot of "hypothetical" type stuff posted in this thread---but I havent seen evidence of any one truly "beasting" with ZWEI yet.
Lasercakes
[12] Conqueror
This post is going to be more of a wish list. I said I wouldn't do one, but Zwei really could be so much better.
I thought I might be able to make the WR B bug less bad by option selecting b+kBE in there since BT b+kBE doesn't exist and if the bug doesn't happen the combo will work normally. There were times where after that during testing, my A+B still came out as FT A+B. It's not a matter of delaying your B+K input, it's 100% bad back turn detection.
If I 3A BE because I expect them to duck and they don't duck I've just spent meter to make my attack unsafe. Why is this unsafe?
Why the fuck is 4KB unsafe? And on both hits? And for less damage than BB? Look out, you guys better think twice before using an unsafe attack to put Zwei into a FC state.
Can 22BB not whiff?
Can 4(A) be more than +1 on hit please?
3K/66K/BB/AA/K/8B/22B/2B/WR A/WR K/8A+B tip/4A/6B after any of these hit, Pyrrha can land BB before I can get my 1B to hit. It seems to be around i21. Is this really supposed to be a viable tool out of wall combos? I can't even punish most moves with the hope of threatening people with the 1(B) iR force block oh hit.
Still with the pokes I've listed above, with some of them I can't even get a throw or a 4A in after hit. Pyrrha's BB just kills these options. Zwei's moves don't give enough advantage to create a strong mix-up game with his Ein moves. Zwei doesn't even have the tools to keep an opponent honest outside of his Ein game.
Edit:
I thought I might be able to make the WR B bug less bad by option selecting b+kBE in there since BT b+kBE doesn't exist and if the bug doesn't happen the combo will work normally. There were times where after that during testing, my A+B still came out as FT A+B. It's not a matter of delaying your B+K input, it's 100% bad back turn detection.
If I 3A BE because I expect them to duck and they don't duck I've just spent meter to make my attack unsafe. Why is this unsafe?
Why the fuck is 4KB unsafe? And on both hits? And for less damage than BB? Look out, you guys better think twice before using an unsafe attack to put Zwei into a FC state.
Can 22BB not whiff?
Can 4(A) be more than +1 on hit please?
3K/66K/BB/AA/K/8B/22B/2B/WR A/WR K/8A+B tip/4A/6B after any of these hit, Pyrrha can land BB before I can get my 1B to hit. It seems to be around i21. Is this really supposed to be a viable tool out of wall combos? I can't even punish most moves with the hope of threatening people with the 1(B) iR force block oh hit.
Still with the pokes I've listed above, with some of them I can't even get a throw or a 4A in after hit. Pyrrha's BB just kills these options. Zwei's moves don't give enough advantage to create a strong mix-up game with his Ein moves. Zwei doesn't even have the tools to keep an opponent honest outside of his Ein game.
Edit:
Funny that you also bring up "honesty." I didn't even read your post when I was writing that. I had been testing stuff out for over 40 minutes ago when you made that post.
DrDogg
[09] Warrior
I'm a Yoshi main, but I've been playing ZWEI for a week or two now, and I plan to make him my tournament secondary. I don't play online scrubs, and focus my time on good players and strats that will work at the highest level of play.
With that said, I think ZWEI is solid. He's not top tier, but I think he's at least mid-tier. I think all of the complaining about how he's lacking and low tier is just people not taking the time to learn the character properly.
IMO, ZWEI is only missing two things to be upper-mid or so, and a third to be top tier.
To be Upper-Mid
- A safe, mid, horizontal attack.
- One decent low attack. It doesn't have to be safe, but it needs more range than 44A or more speed than 1A. Something along the lines of Yoshi's FC 3K would be fine.
To be Top Tier
- An Ein attack that hits low, or the ability to vary Ein's attacks instead of having them tied directly to specific ZWEI attacks.
With that said, I think ZWEI is solid. He's not top tier, but I think he's at least mid-tier. I think all of the complaining about how he's lacking and low tier is just people not taking the time to learn the character properly.
IMO, ZWEI is only missing two things to be upper-mid or so, and a third to be top tier.
To be Upper-Mid
- A safe, mid, horizontal attack.
- One decent low attack. It doesn't have to be safe, but it needs more range than 44A or more speed than 1A. Something along the lines of Yoshi's FC 3K would be fine.
To be Top Tier
- An Ein attack that hits low, or the ability to vary Ein's attacks instead of having them tied directly to specific ZWEI attacks.
- Moderator
- #46
TwistedAsura
The Wanderer
Well I disagree. I main him and i have played hundreds of matches with him and played offline a bit and I think he is not a near mid character. His lack of speed and his lack of punish with near to no Okizeme options put him at a bad level IMO. The only real thing he has for him is a high guard burst rate and hit confirming moves like his 33B(BE). I also dont think he should be changed other than maybe one more low. Playing Zwei is about outsmarting which is why i make great use of 6A+B(Which BTW works on siegs CE as long as the sword dosent hit you.)and sidestepping to wiff punish. His 1(B) is often thought of as not great because to many people follow it up with the K. Every Zwei I have ever fought complains he is slow and unsafe when the do the second halfs of chains that lead to damage but are unsafe all the time. People need to mix it up by not calling Ein every time or when you do 4(A) dont knife fiend B. Sorry for my little rant I am just mad at all the people who complain about zwei and dont know anything.(Although I still think he is not a great character)
You think he's not even near being mid-tier yet you don't think he needs to be buffed? Hmm. He definitely does need a really good low or two. You got that right. But how are you supposed to outsmart someone when you have no lows to create mixups? If you charge Ein even a little, you're likely to get interrupted. Charging Ein to create an unblockable attack with Knife Fiend B is way too risky. It's always better to not charge 4(A) when you use Knife Fiend B. Zwei needs faster recovery, if not more speed, to make his moves safe when Ein is charged.
Windstar
[13] Hero
3AA is a mid horizontal attack.
Lasercakes
[12] Conqueror
I don't think he necessarily needs good lows. Maybe you guys are used to having good lows. I'm comfortable with a mid-throw game. His unblockable game can be buffed without making use of lows too. There is more than one way to make this a good character and giving him lows is the lazier design choice.
The other problem is the "Zwei-is-shit" crowd keeps on giving solid examples of why he's bad, and you guys NEVER give us anything back. You just say. "You need to learn your character properly." So let's see your "properly learned" Zweis already.
But it's not safe. He specified safe.
I don't mean to be rude or anything. I've only been in the community for SCIV. You don't have enough credibility with me just for me to take your word for it. Maybe I'm terribly mistaken, but the only ones claiming Zwei is good are no bodies. If Woahhzz came in here and said the same thing. I would be second guessing myself right now, but sorry I don't know who you "Zwei-is-good" guys are.
The other problem is the "Zwei-is-shit" crowd keeps on giving solid examples of why he's bad, and you guys NEVER give us anything back. You just say. "You need to learn your character properly." So let's see your "properly learned" Zweis already.
You realize that FC 3K is an unseeable low right right? You can't just say something like that either. You need to be a little bit more detailed. You can't just throw stuff at the wall and hope it's balanced. Will this low have a synergy with Ein? This is a big detail.
To be top tier? Don't you mean fucking broke?
Uber1337
[10] Knight
Yeah but 3aa isnt safe.
Truthfully, zwei could be decent with just a bit of safety. He doesnt really need a low. If only a+b was safe and 3b was less unsafe. And maybe 4kb
Truthfully, zwei could be decent with just a bit of safety. He doesnt really need a low. If only a+b was safe and 3b was less unsafe. And maybe 4kb
Generalkills
[08] Mercenary
Maaan trust me guys I used to be a part of the "Zwei is fine" group. He is not fine. Like I said, after fighting ppl who recognize his moves and strings and know when to properly duck/block and punish, you'll start to see that there are not many options with Zwei, added to the fact he lacks range, and his EIn(delays) arent rlly great mixups at all.
Reccomendation: All the "Zwei is fine" guys, Fight goofy lolz. Srry had to throw ya under the bus Goof, have fun :P
Reccomendation: All the "Zwei is fine" guys, Fight goofy lolz. Srry had to throw ya under the bus Goof, have fun :P
DrDogg
[09] Warrior
I've played hundreds of matches with him as well... mostly offline and many of them ended in a win (after I got a firm grasp on the character). I plan to win a local with him next week, then take him to FR.
He doesn't have a lack of speed IMO. And for the attacks that are a bit lacking in speed, he pretty much stays at constant frame advantage, so that doesn't matter, and it certainly doesn't put him on a bad level. He also has longer range than almost any other character in the game, which makes his speed concerns even less of an issue.
This is all my opinion against your opinion, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say he's low tier or at a bad level.
A+B is safe against some characters. I haven't gone into the lab to determine exactly who can punish it, but it's a whiff punisher anyway. That's like asking for Feng's shoulder in Tekken to be safe. If it's getting blocked, I'm of the mindset that you're using it wrong... or playing online where it's harder to whiff punish.
He has more range than most of the other characters in the game. However, I do agree that if someone were to recognize all of ZWEI's attacks and be able to react to the Ein followup properly, then he's limited. I think that's asking a lot of even top players, but if it eventually gets to that point I still wouldn't consider him low tier.
I'll be at FR. Maybe I'll be forced to use Yoshi and completely abandon ZWEI. Who knows. Either way, I should have something more to say after FR.
I'm old, so my tournament prime has long since passed. But I took top 8 in every Tekken 5 arcade national qualifier I attended (four of them). All of those tournaments were capped at 128 and most hit cap. Just about every known top Tekken player was at those back in the day. Not trying to brag or anything, just saying that I'm not some random who plays online all the time and thinks scrub tactics work at majors.
For the record, I don't know who you are either. ^_^
Lasercakes
[12] Conqueror
Sounds like it's more likely than not, you're a stronger player than me. But I still don't know enough about you. I haven't seen you play for one thing.
I'm nobody. I don't expect my opinion alone to really have any weight behind it, but I'm trying to be objective here.
I'm going to try a different angle. What do you think his worst and best match ups are?
- Thread starter
- #54
dittO
[09] Warrior
This.
The truth is that Zwei has every tool he needs for every occasion. So that makes him, in a way, a viable character to compete even in high level. However, most (not all) other characters can do the same things he does, way better and safer. With the current knowledge of the character that we have so far, I really can't place him over at least half of the roster. Right now he seems to be around mid at the very best.
I think we're all saying the same thing here, just in a different way.
Personally, I don't care that much If Zwei gets better in a future patch. As long as I have my JG, GI, step etc, I feel I can be competitive. Does that mean that Zwei is good? Of course not. The Zwei player must be able to outsmart the opponent more times than the opponent does. And thus we conclude that Zwei really can't be higher than mid (for the moment at least). It's simple mathematics.
I think that we shouldn't really focus whether Zwei is mid or upper-mid or lower-mid etc.
There are just some things that don't make much sense. For instance, I still cannot understand why his 3B is that unsafe. Does it lead to that high damaging combos that other characters' 3Bs don't? Does it have that great range? Does it have any special properties (TC for example)?
DrDogg
[09] Warrior
At the moment I'd probably say Leixia is one of his harder match ups. It's difficult to pressure her on wake-up unless I try to bait and interrupt WS 3B BE. However, the number of attacks ZWEI has that can proper contend with WS 3B BE are limited and can get him into trouble if she doesn't wake up with WS 3B BE.
Other than her, anyone who relies on a decent number of high attacks can be troublesome. I find that ZWEI is a bit lacking with good TC attacks. It's not a huge issue, but against characters like Raph or Viola it makes the fight harder. Also, any character who has a long range TC attack is a pain because it nullifies 1B.
I don't have a problem with the safety of 3B. I try to use it only when it's a guaranteed hit, so I don't have it blocked much. However, I do throw it out to see if the opponent knows it's -16. Kind of like how I'll toss out 66BA to see if the opponent knows to duck the second hit or not.
ZWEI's 3B is about as safe as Yoshi's 3B was in SC4, and leads to about the same damage when you factor in meter. Keep in mind, ZWEI can do big damage off 3B with meter, plus ring out options, wall damage, etc.
Windstar
[13] Hero
3AA is negative four (-4) on block. Only way its not safe is if they duck the second hit (and its a natural combo too).
DrDogg
[09] Warrior
3A, the only part of that combo that's a horizontal mid, is -17. Anyone halfway decent is going to duck the high and punish, so it's irrelevant. It's just like 66BA, if you're playing people who aren't ducking the second hit, they either don't know ZWEI or they're not that good.
Ok, if he doesn't need a low, what do you use when your opponent is blocking high? You have no options but to continue to attack high. He's predictable and extremely disadvantaged against characters with low mixups like Maxi, Pyrrha, and Xiba. Actually he's disadvantaged against everyone.
Uber1337
[10] Knight
You have throws. And Maxi doesn't really have any good lows either, other than BL KK. 2A+B is alright, but totally seeable. There are really only a few characters in this game that rely on Mid/Low mix-ups.
Its true some characters have trouble punishing this, but some can and REALLY hard. And i'm not saying A+B should have been safe necessarily, but it would be a quick fix. He really doesn't have any good options for keeping the opponent from rushing him down. They didn't give him any good TCs and he has crappy speed (if you don't believe me on this, look at his frame data. Even his 2A is slower than most peoples). Being able to A+B more freely would help Zwei's cause. Its not like the move has outstanding properties anyways, its only i18 with no TC and its linear. All it has going for it is range.
Its true some characters have trouble punishing this, but some can and REALLY hard. And i'm not saying A+B should have been safe necessarily, but it would be a quick fix. He really doesn't have any good options for keeping the opponent from rushing him down. They didn't give him any good TCs and he has crappy speed (if you don't believe me on this, look at his frame data. Even his 2A is slower than most peoples). Being able to A+B more freely would help Zwei's cause. Its not like the move has outstanding properties anyways, its only i18 with no TC and its linear. All it has going for it is range.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
You guys are way to optimistic he cant be fixed with just a patch.
He has no decent ch fisher.
He has no decent speed mid. 4b is shit for many reasons 66k is ok but im not really a fan of slowish linear moves that do low damage.
He has no range.
He cant enforce his amazing frames.
His own mechanic works AGAINST him. When ein is out his B throw turns into trash making his mix up game almost a non threat while ein is out. (which it shouldnt be).
Imo he would be X1200 times better with a fast mid unsafe lunge punch with some range
hes a close range fighter who pushes people away aka sc2 maxi syndrome
He has no decent ch fisher.
He has no decent speed mid. 4b is shit for many reasons 66k is ok but im not really a fan of slowish linear moves that do low damage.
He has no range.
He cant enforce his amazing frames.
His own mechanic works AGAINST him. When ein is out his B throw turns into trash making his mix up game almost a non threat while ein is out. (which it shouldnt be).
Imo he would be X1200 times better with a fast mid unsafe lunge punch with some range
hes a close range fighter who pushes people away aka sc2 maxi syndrome