Z.W.E.I. Patch/Wishlist

[RavenSierra]

Probably a bit much, but 6A+B performing aGI if the attack connects with Ein, instead of just Zwei. It just really bugs me when an attack visually goes straight through the big glowing green spot and nothing happens.

Other than that, 4[A] iR being a combo on CH, throws not putting Ein on cooldown, and make 1A not so incredibly bloody godawful.

 

[Lasercakes]

How about WR B BT B+K A+B not coming out all the time instead of WR B regular B+K.

 

[XOmegaGold]

How about WR B BT B+K A+B not coming out all the time instead of WR B regular B+K.

I've noticed that happen too, maybe we're hitting B+K too soon after WR B?

 

[Lasercakes]

I've noticed that happen too, maybe we're hitting B+K too soon after WR B?

I blame faulty BT detection. Timing might increase the chances, but it still shouldn't happen.


I'm also pretty sure B+K BE is buggy as fuck too. When I know my cool down is up, sometimes I will B+K BE and Ein doesn't come. There's also something really dumb going on if I block an attack immediately after B+K BEing. Ein also doesn't show up.

But if I block after a delay, Ein shows up. If I block immediately and don't get attacked Ein shows up.

There's also a window where you can B+K BE and B+K and Ein will still come out a bit after the B+K, but you can't B+K immediately after B+K BEing. I'm not really sure what to make of this. I have a window where I can B+K in after the BE version, but if I do it too late it stops Ein from coming out of the earlier B+K BE. All other Ein attacks interrupt your B+K BE so this just feels like an extremely bizzare mechanic.

I wanted to keep my posts in this thread to bugs complaints, but while I'm at it I feel like there's more to mention about B+K BE. This attack seems to have so much potential, but the mechanics in play are just way too wonky currently. When B+K BE hits on block, it gives me frame advantage, but I don't have any tools to press my advantage, especially because I can't immediately call Ein again.

If I'm mid screen and they block B+K BE, I have nothing threatening to do. The knock back is just too counter productive with Zwei's range. It makes it extremely difficult to even follow up with a throw. And even if I did follow up with a throw I don't have Ein to make my throws work, so they do lol damage. Just break A, and you lock out any other shenanigans that Zwei can do by pouring all of his meter into. Just eat now 30 damage Ein-less B throw. If I use B+K BE in an attempt for wall pressure on wake up, I'll have to block their immediate 2A which causes Ein not to come out.

The move has nearly no practical use against a smart player. The damage potential is amazing, but blocking against it is just too good. Zwei has no threatening lows, so the only mix-up option he has is run up and throw. You can time a throw with B+K BE and Zwei will punch them even if they break, for like 70 damage, but the timing is on the specific side. It's too hard to setup and the payoff is too little.

 

[DocCeaser]

I actually mentioned the b+k BE thing where you b+k after the BE and Ein still does the BE attack a while ago in the general discussion thread.

 

[Uber1337]

this character is such a mess, i don't really think they are gonna be able to fix him in this game. I really don't even know how they could have gave him this movelist and not immediately realized that he was gonna end up being total garbage. You can be slow, unsafe, AND low damage. I'm relatively positive that Zwei is the absolute worst character in the game. He might have a couple decent match-ups, but when the opponent is faster (which is almost everyone) and can close distance, Zwei is totally screwed it seems.

If they did make a balance patch, which I kinda doubt even happens, there's a few things i would like fixed:

- Make EIN recovery faster. It takes way too long to recover from summoning that you don't have any time to mix-up anything, not that you even have tools to mix-up with.
- Make his throw range longer. I mean wtf. Why did you do this to him Namco?
- A+B should either be safe or given TC. This move is one of the better things going for Zwei, but against some characters, it can be risky. If they made it safe, Zwei could spam this more and allow him to keep space. If they gave it TC properties, Zwei could use it to beat pressure. If this isn't given TC, something else needs it because with no speed and crappy TC options, Zwei has no good way to beat pressure.
- Give better rewards for the 6A+B. 40 Damage is not that great. If this is Zwei's only defensive option, damage should be pumped up by like 20-30. Either that or let us combo to our Super.
- Some stuff needs to be safer. Its like their idea was to have EIN cover the unsafe attacks, but there's no effective way to keep EIN out long enough to actually cover any of your attacks. 3B should be -13 like most other 3Bs. And does 4A+B really have to be -24?


These quick fixes might help him become more competitive, but they are really just band-aids. This character seems fundamentally flawed in design. I really don't see how Namco released this character in this state.

 

[Generalkills]

YOU PIECES OF TRASH ASKING FOR ZWEI CHANGES STFU AND GET OFF MY CHARCTER!!!! YOU DONT DESERVE TO TIE THE LACES ON ZWEI'S BOOTS. YOU DISGUST ME. ZWEI IS PERFECT, NOW SHUT UP AND GET OFF MY CHARCTER U CRYBABIES. YALL CANT USE HIM BECAUSE YALL LACK IMAGINATION, YOU FIGHT LIKE ROCKS!!



seriously tho Zwei is decent as he is :)

 

[Uber1337]

seriously tho Zwei is decent as he is :)

Lol no, he's complete gimmicky crap. Fight someone who knows what they are doing (i.e. ducks/steps EIN, punishes unsafe attacks) and then tell me he's decent.

 

[TwistedAsura]

I like Zwei as he is. You have to think to win. I wish his While rising B would wall splat though. I could do a lot with that.

 

[Goofy]

Can one of you peeps from the "Zwei is totally fine" camp post up some videos of your amazing Zwei skills? I'd love to see how you guys are using him so uniquely and effectively to win against decent players who understand his pathetically abundant gimmicks and horrible frames. Better yet, let's play some matches on XBL and let me show you how bad of a character you're really playing :D!

On-Topic: dittO, C_3, Lasercakes, Uber1337, and others have pretty much laid down all the issues that I have with Zwei, along with some pretty interesting additions. However, I'm ignorant and skeptical as too how much of this could actually be implemented in a patch. Does anybody know what the limitations of a patch actually are? Can only the properties of moves be changed or can they be replaced with new, hopefully better ones?

 

[Generalkills]

Can one of you peeps from the "Zwei is totally fine" camp post up some videos of your amazing Zwei skills? I'd love to see how you guys are using him so uniquely and effectively to win against decent players who understand his pathetically abundant gimmicks and horrible frames. Better yet, let's play some matches on XBL and let me show you how bad of a character you're really playing :D!

On-Topic: dittO, C_3, Lasercakes, Uber1337, and others have pretty much laid down all the issues that I have with Zwei, along with some pretty interesting additions. However, I'm ignorant and skeptical as too how much of this could actually be implemented in a patch. Does anybody know what the limitations of a patch actually are? Can only the properties of moves be changed or can they be replaced with new, hopefully better ones?

add me on xbl

GT: brook01

 

[TwistedAsura]

Can one of you peeps from the "Zwei is totally fine" camp post up some videos of your amazing Zwei skills? I'd love to see how you guys are using him so uniquely and effectively to win against decent players who understand his pathetically abundant gimmicks and horrible frames. Better yet, let's play some matches on XBL and let me show you how bad of a character you're really playing :D!

On-Topic: dittO, C_3, Lasercakes, Uber1337, and others have pretty much laid down all the issues that I have with Zwei, along with some pretty interesting additions. However, I'm ignorant and skeptical as too how much of this could actually be implemented in a patch. Does anybody know what the limitations of a patch actually are? Can only the properties of moves be changed or can they be replaced with new, hopefully better ones?

Well I have a combo video posted in the combo forum for Zwei. Once I get my capture card back I would happily upload some matches against some decent players(If I can find any these days >.>).

 

[Generalkills]

Update: Goofy truly has made me realize how bad the situation with Zwei is lolz. Once ppl start getting familiar with Zwei, he'll be borderline useless loolz. Btw ggs Goof, we'll play again some time

 

[C_3]

I hate to say it, but until somebody proves to me that ZWEI can hold his own in tournament.... he's no longer my main. A borderline useless stance with no moves that transition into it, can't whiff punish to save his life from certain distances, gawd awful lows, only has frame advantage on completely avoidable moves (EIN), a predictable throw game in late game... I could go on and on. Even the guide doesn't promote ZWEI as a great character. In about 5 or 6 different sections, it starts off by saying "ZWEI isn't good at _____" or "ZWEI doesn't have _____". He has tools to do well if they continuously sit there and block, but IMO, he doesn't have a solid enough game to force that.... this is in reference to people who KNOW the matchup.... any character can look good if the other person doesn't know what to do.

I'm saying this based on my experiences and what i've seen from better players. I hope I can be proven wrong, but right now i'm incredibly disappointed.

 

[Goofy]

Well I have a combo video posted in the combo forum for Zwei. Once I get my capture card back I would happily upload some matches against some decent players(If I can find any these days >.>).

Not to be a jerk but what I look for in combo videos is practicality or interesting tech, neither of those were present. An A-grab starter for wall-combos or B+K BE couldn't be more obvious and pretty much all of the combos involved burning 1 to 1.5 meter needlessly. Good, but not my kind of thing and not very applicable in an actual match :/

Update: Goofy truly has made me realize how bad the situation with Zwei is lolz. Once ppl start getting familiar with Zwei, he'll be borderline useless loolz. Btw ggs Goof, we'll play again some time

Very GGs Brook, you're a very good player and it's pretty darn obvious that if you were to pick up a better character you would more than likely whoop my ass xD I mean my reaction time is nowhere near tourney-level and I was not reacting to a bunch of the gimmicks and still managed to win. That's just a testament to how bad his range, damage, frames, and risk/reward are in general :/ I shudder to think how free a Zwei player would be against tourney players with solid match-up knowledge and reactions. To reiterate, my beef isn't with Zwei players as 9 times out of 10 they're exceptionally skilled in taking advantage of every opportunity and are overall good players. My beef is with the people who ignorantly believe that Zwei is fine as he is and that he doesn't need to get the buffs he so desperately needs.

 

[Gustavness]

My beef is with the people who ignorantly believe that Zwei is fine as he is and that he doesn't need to get the buffs he so desperately needs.

I disagree with this him needing anything at this point in time. there is a lot that the so called FGC has yet to discover with him.

Cons: Linear. slow. very bad WR game

Pros: visual spacing. the ability to remove effective ukemi on any character forcing true 50 50 mixups for dmg resets, and a variety of other things that are my secrets ;)

for example: 3B, 1k BE, 1B charged.

what this does: first, removes air control and the opponent is knocked down, and removes the ability to tech roll. roughly 70 dmg at this point, and the combo has reset. your opponent only has 2 options here. stay on the ground (or roll on the ground,doesnt matter) or stand up and block high.

why does this work? because the following K from 1k is uninterruptable, and if the opponent lays on the ground, rolls on the ground, tries to duck, attack, step, the K relaunches them, ein hits (and will wall splat as well) and you can follow up with 1A(you should stop using 66A+B to end combos, its absolutely horrible. use 1A, trust me). their only option is to stand and block high, and thats what you want. ein is still charged and they have about a sec or less before he hits, step is not an option, crouch is not an option, you can still K or not and relaunch, and you've opened up his nasty throw game. this setup goes from 70 dmg to about 150 dmg if the person tries to be passive, or a lot more if they try to stand and block and guess wrong. in fact, using this attack pattern can kill a person against a wall using the proper stun strings with 1 bad guess on their part

"but Gustav, his throw game isnt nasty". of course it is. it dont think anyone has realized that aside from his obvious combos from a+G that everyone will always try to break, that B+G has several different ways to play out. first, there is normal B+G where ein comes out, smacks the opponent or if he is on cooldown, ein doesnt show up. you may not have noticed, but ein can be charged on his throw. the first portion of his throw is non techable, so if you charge slightly (not full charge dumbass) you can force the opponent to either lay there and take a hit from ein (which now hits for double dmg if charged) or try to rise and get put in block stun where you can follow up with his stand and crouch pressure in guard stun. this also goes to your advantage if they try to stand and block immediately assuming ein is going to hit them when he never appears

there's quite a few other things that i can talk about that he has, but i just want to say that before people start clamoring for unneeded buffs, that characters need to really be explored first. I dont think it's zwei, i think people arent playing him the way he should be.

 

[Cozby]

I agree with Gustav, Zwei is fine, and completely viable. I kinda wish I entereed Singles at Winter Brawl, but I didn't want to run into marvel and deal with that nonsense.

 

[Goofy]

I disagree with this him needing anything at this point in time. im not saying that eventually he may need something, but at this point in time i dont think he does. there is a lot that the so called FGC has yet to discover with him.

Well then, I have beef with you, sir.

Cons: Linear. slow

Lol really? Let's build upon this; he's linear, slow, unable to punish effectively at range, unsafe, has lackluster damage/range, and his risk/reward is pathetically disproportionate.

Pros: visual spacing. the ability to remove effective ukemi on any character forcing true 50 50 mixups for dmg resets, and a variety of other things that are my secrets ;)

Lolwut? Oh noooooes, force block set-ups at best? Curses. Visual spacing..? How's his auditory zoning? >_>...I question the relevancy of your secrets in high-level play.

for example: 3B, 1k BE, 1B charged.

You had me at 3B, his i19 and -16 on block piece of trash launcher that has zip range. The free bird sings of significant punishment.

Shenanigans about 3B~1K BE~1B held mix-ups.

I'm not really understanding this grand mix-up you're trying to lay out here. I understand that 1B held~K~R is a force block, but that's about it. Nobody with an inkling of knowledge is going to stay on the ground so you can scratch the epic damage reset blah blah blah. Grab mix-ups? I assume you're referring to the +2 advantage Ein gives after the force block(which is laughable) because while holding Ein, there is no grab mix-up. Overall, I find your enthusiasm over a force block "mix-up" rather silly and misplaced.

Shenanigans about Zwei's throw game.

If his B-grab worked regardless of Ein's cooldowns(54 damage every time) and did not set Ein on cooldown, then I might agree with you. Those two factors are what hold his grab game back significantly though. Lol the charged version was one of the first things I discovered with him and I have still yet to find a use for it outside of the oh so amazing force block "mix-up". Just another gimmick to add to the list. Not to mention his grab range blows >_>

there's quite a few other things that i can talk about that he has, but i just want to say that before people start clamoring for unneeded buffs, that characters need to really be explored first. I don't think it's zwei, i think people arent playing him the way he should be.

I wholeheartedly encourage you to spill all of your non-gimmick, non-silly tech so that we Zwei players may benefit and begin to truly unlock the super hidden potential of this character xD Otherwise I'll go ahead and label you a vacuum player/theory fighter/scrub slaughterer because if you were to play against decent players with basic match-up knowledge, you'd get blown-up. That's not to say that you are bad, but rather the character you're using is. If you're on XBL, I'd love to open your eyes by playing some matches :)

 

[Gustavness]

Well then, I have beef with you, sir.Lol really? Let's build upon this; he's linear, slow, unable to punish effectively at range, unsafe, has lackluster damage/range, and his risk/reward is pathetically disproportionate. Lolwut? Oh noooooes, force block set-ups at best? Curses. Visual spacing..? How's his auditory zoning? >_>...I question the relevancy of your secrets in high-level play.You had me at 3B, his i19 and -16 on block piece of trash launcher that has zip range. The free bird sings of significant punishment.I'm not really understanding this grand mix-up you're trying to lay out here. I understand that 1B held~K~R is a force block, but that's about it. Nobody with an inkling of knowledge is going to stay on the ground so you can scratch the epic damage reset blah blah blah. Grab mix-ups? I assume you're referring to the +2 advantage Ein gives after the force block(which is laughable) because while holding Ein, there is no grab mix-up. Overall, I find your enthusiasm over a force block "mix-up" rather silly and misplaced.If his B-grab worked regardless of Ein's cooldowns(54damage every time) and did not set Ein on cooldown, then I might agree with you. Those two factors are what hold his grab game back significantly though. Lol the charged version was one of the first things I discovered with him and I have still yet to find a use for it outside of the oh so amazing force block "mix-up". Just another gimmick to add to the list. Not to mention his grab range blows >_>I wholeheartedly encourage you to spill all of your non-gimmick, non-silly tech so that we Zwei players may benefit and begin to truly unlock the super hidden potential of this character xD Otherwise I'll go ahead and label you a vacuum player/theory fighter/scrub slaughterer because if you were to play against decent players with basic match-up knowledge, you'd get blown-up. That's not to say that you are bad, but rather the character you're using is. If you're on XBL, I'd love to open your eyes by playing some matches :)

if i was on xbl i would love to play you. on to your points.

lets us say that i definitely agree with you on linear, slow, unable to punish effectively at range and most of what he has is unsafe.none of this is in question

i disagree that damage/range and risk reward is disproportionate. force block scenarios are extremely powerful especially in light of the guard crush system which will win you rounds. there is no debate about that i assume?

secondly, of course his 3b is terrible, absolutely terrible. no one would be throwing this out randomly. the example i gave is just that, an example. the 1B charge setup can be used off of any launching move he has into force block scenarios into your opponent making a bad read. Hell, you can 1B and if it hits on counter, step left and 1kBE into it. i dont expect people to stay on the ground after being hit once with it lol, i would rather they didnt.

i'll admit i laughed at auditory zoning :)

lets just say that i disagree about his throw game. although i do wish his grab range was longer :( i think he should have a command throw where ein reaches out and grabs for more distance

I agree that he has a lot of gimmicks, all of which are terrible. that includes all his "unblockable" gimmicks as well.

not a vacuum player. that's all i'll say about that.

I play Zwei a bit like Shang tsung i think.

 

[Uber1337]

These force block scenarios you speak of are flawed in a couple of ways.
First, its pretty hard for Zwei to even get himself into a position where he can do any of this stuff. Having good oki is pretty useless when you can't actually get your opponent on the ground.
Secondly, all of his moves are unsafe. So what are you mixing up here exactly? Even if you manage to put him in a forced block situation with a held 1B, what kind of mix-up are you really getting here? You can either run up to him and go for a throw, or use an unsafe mid. The throw mix-up option is really stupid here too, because the EIN will not appear for the B throw, and also a TC move beats both EIN and your throw attempt. Your other option would be to run up and do a mid. The problem is that almost all of his knockdown mids are unsafe B's, and if you try to use a B move EIN will land before your attack and you will get punished. This leave 22A as Zwei's only real option here, which leads to moderate damage.

Given these factors, I would defense this by standing and blocking after the 1B, waiting for the K. If the K didn't come out, I'm just gonna stand there and block and break A if thrown. If you throw B, I'm only taking 30 damage and I'm out of the Mix-up. All that work to even get that knockdown for the oki set-up and all you came up with was 30 damage on 3 correct guess (guess 1: I wouldn't stay on the ground or attack after 1B, guess 2: I wouldn't do a beefy TC when you came running at me for the throw mix-up, guess 3: I wouldn't break B). Keep in mind that I would also mix in one of the above guesses at a low rate just to screw with you. Also keep in mind that when I do make one of those first 2 guesses, they will be using moves beefy moves that are likely going to lead to far more damage than any of the combos Zwei is getting from these set-ups. Poor, poor Zwei :(

If you think about it, he's kinda like rock in SC4. He gets these great oki set-ups, but he's slow, unsafe, and he lacks guaranteed damage. And I think we all know where Rock was in the tier list in SC4.