Z.W.E.I. Patch/Wishlist

[DrDogg]

You guys are way to optimistic he cant be fixed with just a patch.

He has no range.
He cant enforce his amazing frames.
His own mechanic works AGAINST him. When ein is out his B throw turns into trash making his mix up game almost a non threat while ein is out. (which it shouldnt be).

hes a close range fighter who pushes people away aka sc2 maxi syndrome

I love to play ZWEI from halfway across the screen, outside of even Astaroth's reach. My opponents have a hard time dealing with ZWEI when I play a distance game.

At close range, I stay at frame advantage a majority of the time and even though I agree about his B throw when Ein is out (although most of the good people I play can duck throws on reaction), it still knocks down, which gives me oki setups.

Guess I'm doing it wrong... ^_^

 

[pharaoh03]

You have throws. And Maxi doesn't really have any good lows either, other than BL KK. 2A+B is alright, but totally seeable. There are really only a few characters in this game that rely on Mid/Low mix-ups.

Are you kidding me? Throws are not replacements for good lows. I'm the one that's played tons of games with Zwei, and you're a Maxi player. I don't get the "he has a throw/mid game" argument, doesn't everyone have that? And everyone has a good low it seems. Except Zwei. His throws/mids don't help his ground game, only his wake-up game. Not only does he need a good low but one that hits grounded. If not two of them. As i've explained in my previous posts, he also needs faster recovery if not just more speed to make it somewhat safe to charge Ein. Ein is supposed to make Zwei safe and Zwei's slow recovery counters that.

 

[TROOF]

This is by far the worst thread I have ever come across on this site bar none. Reason #1: If some of u dont like the character how bout u stop bitchin and move on to another character instead of logging in to 8wayrun.com everyday to bitch about something that isnt even legitimate. Reason #2: If one of the moderators of this thread moves on to Cervantes then maybe u all should follow suit and move on to another instead of polluting this thread with ridiculous nonsense that doesnt help anyone get better with this character. Dont depend on the developers of this game to make your character better how bout u get better as players and realize the potential of your characters. STFU and use your imagination u fuckin ROCKS!!

 

[Generalkills]

This is by far the worst thread I have ever come across on this site bar none. Reason #1: If some of u dont like the character how bout u stop bitchin and move on to another character instead of logging in to 8wayrun.com everyday to bitch about something that isnt even legitimate. Reason #2: If one of the moderators of this thread moves on to Cervantes then maybe u all should follow suit and move on to another instead of polluting this thread with ridiculous nonsense that doesnt help anyone get better with this character. Dont depend on the developers of this game to make your character better how bout u get better as players and realize the potential of your characters. STFU and use your imagination u fuckin ROCKS!!

Play me I'll show you how bad Zwei is :P

 

[DrDogg]

Not only does he need a good low but one that hits grounded. If not two of them. As i've explained in my previous posts, he also needs faster recovery if not just more speed to make it somewhat safe to charge Ein. Ein is supposed to make Zwei safe and Zwei's slow recovery counters that.

He has attacks that hit grounded. Why do they have to be low?

Also, if ZWEI had the ability to safely charge Ein, he'd be broken. If you're using Ein at close range, it's your job to train the opponent to respect Ein. If you can't do that, it's your problem, not Project Soul's.

Play me I'll show you how bad Zwei is :P

Online? No thanks. What character do you play?

 

[Uber1337]

Also, if ZWEI had the ability to safely charge Ein, he'd be broken. If you're using Ein at close range, it's your job to train the opponent to respect Ein. If you can't do that, it's your problem, not Project Soul's.
?

As Zwei players, it is our problem, but is that really our fault? Please explain to me how you train your opponent to respect EIN close range. I feel like EIN is really only good at Mid-Long range. Up close, a lot of characters can rip you apart for using EIN if they know how to react right. If they see 1B, they do a TC move, If they see 4A, they quick step and punish. There is NO MIX-UP. You don't have the option to do 1B or 4A alone and attack afterward, the recovery is far too long. Unless by respect you mean just not summoning EIN and blocking instead, which really doesn't make the opponent respect ZWEI anymore.

Not being able to pressure with EIN up close wouldn't be so bad though if Zwei had a better way to keep opponenets out of his face.

You should try playing someone that knows how to counter Zwei DrDogg. You are seeing success with Zwei because there are very few people who actually do know how to deal with Zwei yet. As a SCIV Maxi player, I can tell you that just because you can beat other good players with a bad character, it doesn't mean your character isn't still garbage. In SC4, I was able to pressure most of my opponents with a lot of forced blocks situations into Mix-ups. Worked great against 99% of the players. But when I fought the really smart players, they were able to strategically shift the risk-reward ratio on most of my good tools towards them. this forced me into playing a much more conservative poke oriented style, which is not his strength because he was slow, unsafe, low damage, and lacked good TCs. Sound familiar?

I think SC4 Maxi actually had better tools than Zwei does in this game, and thats REALLY BAD because SC4 Maxi was terrible. The only move that I think could save Zwei from being total trash is the B+K BE, but i'm skeptical about how much offense you can really produce with just that. He might also become decent months down the line when people learn to jG like crazy. 4B BE is quick and can probably punish a lot of stuff after jG. But even if he becomes decent for that reason, his character design is still flawed. He would just be a turtle.

 

[DrDogg]

You should try playing someone that knows how to counter Zwei DrDogg. You are seeing success with Zwei because there are very few people who actually do know how to deal with Zwei yet.

You assume far too much. I train all of my opponents (offline) how to defend against ZWEI. I go over all of his Ein attacks and how to evade them. I make sure they're ducking 66BA and 3AA. I know how to break down a character at high levels. I do the same thing teaching my opponents how to escape Yoshi's teleport shenanigans.

As I stated before, on paper ZWEI is easy to beat, but it's not really practical to expect even top players to properly react to every Ein attack. 1{B} is pretty easy to react to, but I don't generally use it in situations where I'll get punished. 66A+B is also easy to react to, but again, I don't use it when an opponent can easily react to it.

You can't react to 4{A} because it looks very similar to {A} and Ein attacks differently from each. You can't react well to {B} because I can use BB. It's very difficult to evade {B} after confirming I'm not doing BB. Possible, yes... but you won't see that reaction often, even from top players. They might guess based on your play style, but they won't be acting on reactions alone like you can do with 1{B} or something like 66BA.

I do find it funny that you think Ein is good at mid/long range, while others are complaining he lacks range. I don't agree that he lacks range, but clearly there's something wrong with those two varying opinions.

 

[Drizzle]

snip.

Who are these characters with amazing lows? I can't think of many that would actually make me start ducking. It's been said before that adding a good low is probably the laziest way to improve a character.

 

[Uber1337]

You can't react to 4{A} because it looks very similar to {A} and Ein attacks differently from each. You can't react well to {B} because I can use BB. It's very difficult to evade {B} after confirming I'm not doing BB. Possible, yes... but you won't see that reaction often, even from top players. They might guess based on your play style, but they won't be acting on reactions alone like you can do with 1{B} or something like 66BA.

I do find it funny that you think Ein is good at mid/long range, while others are complaining he lacks range. I don't agree that he lacks range, but clearly there's something wrong with those two varying opinions.

Zwei actually does kinda lack range. Other than his EIN attacks, his range kinda sucks. Yeah A+B has range, but some characters kill him for using it. Even still, i think he's best played at mid/long range, because that's where he's safest. The problem is, he can't really enforce that spacing because his tools suck.

And you actually can react to 4A, the animation is different than A. I'm pretty decent at sidestepping after 4A and I have very little experience fighting against Zwei. The game has only been out for 3 weeks, I think its a little early to start assuming that just because people aren't reacting now, they won't in the future. Even if 4A and A was an absolute unseeble 50/50 (which its not), Zwei is still gonna lose in the risk/reward ratio.

Lets say the opponent makes 2 decisions after seeing 4A/A, purely random .

Decision 1: Sidestep and punish.
Decision 2: Do a beefy TC move.

In the case of decision 1:
-If Zwei does [A]: You land the EIN for almost 30 damage after CH. You get minor frame advantage.
-If Zwei does [4A]: You take a lot of damage. Somewhere in the range of 60-120 damage, depending on character.
-If Zwei does not summon EIN: You can block their attacks, but probably won't be able to punish.

Risk/Reward Ratio: In the range of 2:1 to 4:1 against Zwei.

In the case of decision 2:
-If Zwei does [A]: You take a lot of damage. Again, character dependent. 40-120 damage.
-If Zwei does 4[A]: You land EIN, get a pretty decent combo. 70-140ish depending on how much meter you use. This is of course assuming you land 4A on block, if you are spaced or they duck, you're screwed.
-If Zwei does not summon EIN: You MIGHT be able to block. 4A is -16, so some characters are still gonna hit you, some very heavily.

Risk/Reward Ratio: About even. But keep in mind that this is not truly a 50/50 so reaction time is gonna shift this away from Zwei.

As you can see, A and 4A is not a mix-up that really benefits Zwei against a experienced and knowledgable opponent. So what else does that leave Zwei? You don't use 1B in punish range, you don't use 66A+B when it can be stepped (which is mostly wake-up). I just showed you that A and 4A is not a winning mix-up. What tools does this leave him once they get close to him? Yes his B series and A series are good, but you're aren't going to win with just that. In order to get real damage, you have to do his unsafe stuff. You really have to outplay/outguess your opponent to win when they know what they're doing.

Don't get me wrong, I still play Zwei and I'm constantly trying to get better with him. It's just that with every tactic I learn to use, I think about what the counter to that tactic would be. And in almost every situation, the opponents counter measure is usually more rewarding than the reward that I'm getting for using that tactic. I still win most of my games against skilled but lesser opponents, but when I start trying to use that stuff against top Nor Cal opponents, I get destroyed. And they don't even have much experience against Zwei.

Honestly, if you really think he's so good, I would like you to explain some of your tactics to us. Heres a few questions i have:
1) What moves do you use to get most of your damage?

2) How do you keep opponents from rushing you down, assuming they know not to wrecklessly run in when EIN is available?

3) Once they do get in, what do you do to get them back out? (If you use {B} to push out, what do you do afterwards to stop them from coming right back with EIN on cooldown?) If you prefer to stay up close, what moves do you use to dish out your damage?

 

[DrDogg]

I never said ZWEI was "good". I said I think he's a solid mid-tier and not low tier like a lot of people here are saying. He definitely has shortcomings, which I listed in my first post in this thread.

As far as how I play ZWEI, his cool down on Ein isn't very long. I play a distance game with 1{B} in an attempt to bait the opponent to attack. As long as I have the life lead, I force the opponent to get in on my "Ein shield". Once they're in, I use his non-Ein pokes (2A, 3K, etc.) and test the waters to see how well they react to Ein. I usually test with {B} and 4{A}, as well as a 3AA, 66BA and a B throw, just to see how familiar they are with ZWEI and how well they can punish (I do the same thing with Yoshi).

Once I know how the opponent will react, I proceed accordingly. Whatever Ein attacks they react to well, I limit their usage. No one can take away all of ZWEI's tools, just like no one can take away all of any other character's tools.

I definitely don't have a set game plan with ZWEI that works all the time. But I don't have that with any character. I play based on my opponent's skill level and what they let me get away with. When I'm using Yoshi, if I can win a game with just DGF K, then I'm going to spam that until the opponent gives me a reason not to.

When I fought Aris at SoCal Regionals (SC4), he blocked my DGF mixups, so I didn't use them. I was 1 dropped combo away from knocking him into loser's, and that was with several of Yoshi's tools neutralized.

My point is that I don't think winning is as night and day as the people in this thread make it out to be. What happens on paper is not necessarily what will happen in tournament play. ZWEI can hang. ZWEI can win. And I think ZWEI has a better chance of winning than a good number of other characters, which is why I say he's a solid mid-tier.

 

[Uber1337]

Seems like most of your strategy is based around character ignorance. This will not work in any tournament that matters. Right now you get away with it because no one plays Zwei so no one knows what to do. But if you really think about, if you do encounter someone who is similar skill to you and knows what to do, what is your strategy going to be? You are pretty much screwed. This puts you in low tier, no way around it. What characters do you think are worse than him? Dampierre is arguable, but I think he's better simply because he's safer and faster.

Like I said, I played Maxi all the way through SC4, so I know you CAN win with bad characters. Its just a serious uphill battle.

 

[DrDogg]

You missed the entire point of my post. And you're acting like I've never played in a tournament or against top players before. So I'm done here.

Most of the other decent ZWEI players I talked to said they avoid this forum like the plague. I figured I'd give it a shot, but I see why they don't bother posting here. Continue thinking ZWEI is garbage, I no longer care.

I'll be playing ZWEI and Yoshi at Final Round. We'll see how well I do.

 

[Tritan]

You missed the entire point of my post. And you're acting like I've never played in a tournament or against top players before. So I'm done here.

Most of the other decent ZWEI players I talked to said they avoid this forum like the plague. I figured I'd give it a shot, but I see why they don't bother posting here. Continue thinking ZWEI is garbage, I no longer care.

I'll be playing ZWEI and Yoshi at Final Round. We'll see how well I do.

This could not be more true. I've been telling my friends the same thing. Honestly, I'm new to competitive soul calibur ( Taking it seriously after years of 2D fighters. ) but it does not take 5+ years of SC tournament experience to determine that ZWEI is not absolute shit tier like the majority of this thread makes him sound. He doesn't need godlike lows when his wakeup, frame trap, and throw game are already very good. ( despite throw range complaints. ;p Just have to adapt. )

He relies entirely on making your opponent respect EIN and stop pushing buttons in retaliation. I know it's been said by others already but I really feel this point is being massively overlooked and not given enough credit. You guys should be discussing the various mindgames and setups to get opponents respecting EIN instead of asking for patches. :( 5{A} will stop the sidestep spammers and you have enough time if it hits to dash up and summon another one because of the spinning stun. After a few instant summon 5[A]'s against a sidestepper, they will eventually stop because they're getting constantly clipped. Step #1 complete, now use 4{A} and hold for a slight delay. ( Not enough to leave you at terrible disadvantage, but just enough to frame trap them if they choose to attack back. ) Release EIN and step forward, this is scary to deal with on the opposing end. ZWEI is now free to follow EIN in because of their hesitation, and can often times get an easy throw or hit confirm with a normal of your choice depending on what they did. This same tactic / general trap can be exchanged with 5{B} and 1{B} if they're ducking instead of sidestepping.

On topic of throws, who cares if EIN is on cooldown for his B throw? They get knocked down and allow ZWEI to continue the momentum on wakeup. Momentum is just as important, if not MORE important than raw damage. Any player that has played against ZWEI at least a couple times is going to be watching for A throw since we know it can lead to huge damage from the front. This is when B throw shines, you take the damage if EIN is available, otherwise you still get momentum based knockdown and another mixup. EIN is not the important part of the B throw. ( Although if you do have him available during B throw, then delaying the B throw summon can lead to some tricky shit. )

Point being, ZWEI does not seem to be a straight forward character and I agree with DrDogg. If a player wants more low attacks or safer frame data, then pick a character that leans toward that style of play. ZWEI is a psychological character that requires you to train your opponent into reacting badly because those are the tools he has available. I don't think changes to his gameplay are necessary at all. A few fixes like back turn detection on the b+k summon would be nice though since I'm already in the middle of a combo when it drops. ;p Although I'm living with it for now. lol

 

[Tritan]

Bah, forgot to mention something.

It should also be considered that when you're up against a high level player who knows your character up and down, then you're going to have a much harder time breaking them down period. This is going to be true no matter what character you pick and using it as an argument against ZWEI's move set is completely pointless. There are mechanics in this game that are able to be abused across the board. Most people roll their eyes at me when I tell them to just guard or GI X characters pressure to escape. It may not be a character specific mechanic, but it's certainly valid and I think it fixes a major amount of the frame data complaints. If you can't poke back after a characters safe strings on you, then start looking toward step, GI, and just guard mechanics because these will level the field.

I know JG is hard for now, but there was a point in 3rd strike's lifespan where parry was considered difficult and that was an incredibly similar, if not identical, mechanic. I'm "just" sayin... ;p

 

[Uber1337]

I have no doubt that you are a good player DrDogg. I just have serious doubts that Zwei is a good character. I know you can overcome some of Zwei's shortcomings with strong play, but that doesn't really change the fact that the character is weak. Good luck at Final Round. Its still very early in the games life, so you will probably do pretty decent with Zwei due to ignorance. I have a feeling you're gonna have to fall back on Yoshi against the better players though.

And Tritan, your entire argument about pressuring is based on the opponent freezing up because of [A] and {B}, which is not realistic. And what are you following in with after they block EIN, everything is unsafe.

Zwei's oki after a no-EIN B throw isn't even very good. What are you using on oki? 1K? 1B? 66A+B? The opponent can stand and block the 1k and 1B and punish, while they can roll away from 66A+B.

I already said earlier that jG mechanics could save Zwei from garbage tier due to 4B, but that still doesn't change the fact that his character design is flawed. You'll be playing a 5 move Zwei.

 

[Macro]

To me I like him how he is but that's just me.

 

[Tritan]

Hrm, Why do you think it is not realistic expectation Uber1337? I think it's quite realistic to expect his frame traps and delays to net some reward. It feels like some players are trying to force ZWEI into a style of play that does not fit his mechanics. The delays are there for very obvious reasons and to expect them to succeed or fail 100% of the time is definitely unrealistic and that much I can agree with, but I believe that is the point to ZWEI in the end anyway; To make opponents hesitate on their defensive decisions because of the varied timings on his attack strings and wake up game.

It typically only takes a couple non-delay 5[A] hits before most people stop trying to counter attack immediately after ZWEI's weapon swing only to get hit by the wolf. This type of eb & flow exists in all fighters that feature a character who can delay or vary the timing on their attacks. I just recently saw a vid where someone B+K BE - then ran up and 2K'd their wakeup just as EIN hit and was able to follow up with 66B-A. With shenanigans like this, how does ZWEI get put into the bottom tiers? He's definitely not auto-pilot straight to the top, but I don't feel like he warrants a patch/wishlist thread for being broken.

As for the B throw without EIN, you have a couple options since ein cooldown is up at the end of the throw. This is the important bit and the reason I place this situation so high on my usefulness chart. Your options are about as full as they are in regular wake up scenarios; B+K BE, 1{B}, another 5{A} if you think they will stand guard, 2K if they stay down, 4{A} or I've even caught some people with 44A if they choose to stand up into one of the ein summons. 44A is a bit underrated because of the specific niche it fills but it does have stun properties after all so just one is all you need for a decent follow up combo. Haven't really found a spot for it other than wakeup with EIN backing it up though. (-18 on block, yowza.)

To touch on the 5-move ZWEI comment also, I'm fairly confident in saying that this applies to a good portion of the cast after watching so many tournament streams/archive videos. In fact, I'd go as far as to say this is why they have the moves separated into a category of "main moves" in the move listing sections of the game. Some moves are flat out less useful than others and some will come up with greater frequency. Does this mean bad character design? To some I guess it does, but are we talking about character design or competitive potential here? Let's use Pyyrha O as an example, a character I see many people playing in top 8 during Tournaments. She does not need to access her entire list of moves in high level play, but instead opts for a few very good punish attacks. Does that make her a bad character? I doubt many would say that right now. In this same light, I feel that zwei has a solid base of "go-to" moves that will fill most situations, but you can still find spots for his less commonly used moves.

 

[Uber1337]

The reason its a bit unreasonable to expect [A] to stop people from stepping is that the damage payoff isn't high enough. You would have to land that 2-3 times without them duck punishing you for that to pay off. You are also under the assumption that people can't see the difference between A and 4A. And as i stated before, even if it was unseeable, the opponent can make 2 random guesses against the moves and win the risk/reward ratio.

I admit he has some cool things he can do with B+K BE, but you can't just rely on that. He'd just be a really bad version of Mitsu, with his BE 50/50 threat.

And most characters don't use only 5 moves. They typically have several useless moves, but they still have somewhere in the range of 15-25 useful moves. But whatever, if you guys like the character fine. Good luck in the coming months as people start to figure out this game. I will still be messing around with Zwei because I like his character design and I think hes fun, but I'm not gonna depend on him in any tournaments.

 

[Tritan]

If you think they're going to wise up to {A} and duck punish, then move to {B} or 1{B}. This games back & forth mental game is astounding and I think it needs to be taken into account here more than we actually are. Just because a hard counter exists to {A} does not mean it's a useless conditioning strategy. Being aware of the hard counter to {A} is what's important as the ZWEI player, and ultimately your next attack decision.

I agree that we can definitely see the difference, hell even "feel" the difference between {A} and 4{A} but the fact that it can be seen doesn't really make much of a difference for me at least. 4{A} feels pretty safe if you release EIN asap, and I feel this move, along with 1{B} can be used to condition players in the same manner as {A} and {B}.

 

[Uber1337]

4A is not safe. Go into practice mode, have Zwei do 4A, then sidestep and do a quick launcher.

I think people get the idea the being low tier means that its impossible to win with them. This is not true. All it means is that you have to work much harder for your damage when all other factors are equal. The fact is, all other factors are never equal, so you will always have a chance. Oof won a freakin tournament with Yoda in SC4.