Zwei Tech Trap Discussion

[sephalump]

This is where tech-traps will go as they're discovered or if they need to be discussed. Informations as to what side(s) or directions they catch should go here for each, as well as discussion on the tech-traps and what they do outside of damage as a whole.

 

[BlackAlpha]

Found a couple nice tech trap setups (tested on Mitsu)

After 22 or 88K, - immediately 66BA (this catches left, right, and back) this also works on EIN CH after
4B - 66b (Back)
4B - 3AA or 3A BE for combo (Left)
4B - 2k (right)


If you don't want to spend meter and get a follow up, you can time 66BA after a 22 or 88A or 44A on hit, it will catch all directions.

Couldn't really find any good moves against people rolling. 1B can hit left if they are rolling but couldnt get it to hit right. 66 A+B usually whiffs but if you hold EIN you can let go if they rise expecting to counter attack you. 1A, 11k, and 2k is it really.

Let me know if you guys find anything else as I'm curious but I don't see too much for his tech trap game.

 

[TadeMasu]

3A BE - 1A All
CH 6A - 4(A+B) Front/Back/Right
B+K - 4A+B Front/Back/Left
4B BE - 66(A+B) Slight charge. Front/Back/Right (good for wakeup as well)
44A - 66 (fast dash) 3AA Front/Back/Right/Left
B+K - 66A+B Front/Back/Right/Left
B+K - 44A Front/Back/Right/Left
44A - 66A+B Front/Back/Left


All I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Reave]

66A, W!, 3B, W!, 1(B)iR, A+G, (B) 97dmg

After that combo the CE will catch to the left and back with the usual B+K, 4A+B, 2K for 195-209dmg

 

[StormriderAngel]

In the spirit of trying to block out whiners and hopefully give people a reason to actually come to this SA, I'm going to be putting together a few Belial inspired lists. Starting with Tech Traps. Who says good things don't come out of spite :)?

I'll be continuously adding to this of course and hopefully release something more complete later down the line.

Common Knockdowns for Tech Traps:
4B
B+K
66B
44A
1A
4B+K
66A
(CE),B+K,4A+B
---------------------------------------------
Tech Traps:
:

• | Front/Back
• | Front/Back/Right/OTG
• | Front/Back/Right/Left
• | Right/Left/OTG
• | Front/Back/Right/Left
• (BE) | Front/Back/Right/Left

(BE):

• | Front/Back/Right/Left/OTG
• * | Front/Left/Back/OTG
• | Front/Back
• WR | Front/Back

:

• | Front/Back/Left
• | Front/Left
• (BE) | Front/Left
• (BE) | Front/OTG
• | Front/OTG

:

• | Front/Left
• | Front/Back
• (BE) | Front/Left
• (BE) | Front/OTG
• | Front/OTG

*, :

• | Front/Back
• | Front/Left
• (BE) | Front/Left
• (BE) | Front/OTG

:

• WR Front/Back
• WR Front

:

• | Front/Right/Left/OTG
• (run forward) | Front/Back
• (run forward) | Front/Back/OTG

:

• | Front
• | Front
• (fast step forward) : | Front/OTG

:

• | Front/Back/Left/OTG (Does not catch Left on Females(except Hilde >_<))
• | Front/Back
• | Front/Left (precise timing)
• (BE) | Front/Left (precise timing)

(BE):

• | Front/Back
• | Front/Back/Right/Left/OTG
• | Front/Back/OTG

(CE),,:

• | Front/Left
• (BE) | Front/Left
• (BE) | Front/OTG

Obviously it leaves plenty to be added and tested but you have to start somewhere. After this (maybe what I should have worked on first) will be character specific punishers. Talk about the character who needs it the most and doesn't have it...

 

[StormriderAngel]

Just a few Counter Attack Tech Traps. He doesn't have many in this category because most of his counter hits only affect damage, and the most the ones that cause stun don't lead to anything worth mentioning. But I have to say, the more I mess with his tech traps, the more I'm amazed at the damage output and potential...

Now if only there was a good way to keep people from just rolling away. I guess Natsu has the same problem too, to a lesser extent.

(counter):

• | Front/Back/Right
• | Front/Back/Right/Left/OTG
• * | Front/Left
• *(BE) | Front/Back/Right (Only will catch right)
• * | Front/Left/OTG
• WR | Front/Back

* (counter) (when the second hit doesn't whiff :D ):

• | Front/Back
• | Front/Back/OTG
• *(BE) | Front/Back
• WR | Front/Back

 

[ZOMBIEBEAR666]

Just some helpful tech traps that come to mind, this is all from memory so don't freak if I get something wrong.
Anything I missed or wrote incorrect is in my guide, peace!

66BA:
2K - F/B/L/G

66A+B (ground):
3A(hit)~A - F/B(c)/L/R
slight dash ~ 1K - F/G

B+K:
44A - F/L/R
33B - F/B/L

{B} (KND):
slight dash ~ 2K - F/G
66B - F/B/L/R
(nw) CE - F/B/L/R/ G (character dependant)

CH 1{B} (far EIN hit):
dash ~ 1A - ALL

1{B}K, EIN:
dash ~ 1A - ALL

CE, B+K, 4A+B:
2A - F/L/R
4B(hit)~BE - F/B/L
1{B} - F/G
1K*1K BE - F/G

B+K BE, KF B(grd), EIN:
66A+B - G/ F*B = force guard (-20)
3A(hit)~A - F/B/L/R

{B+G} (perfect delay):
1K - F/G

B+G:
2K - F/G

4B:
1K*1K BE - F/G
3A(hit)~A - F/L
66B - F/B (will not CSTN on hit - stun cancel)

 

[Zane]

Oh, I forgot this thread existed. Hmm... well I think I should take some of the private content out to the forums. So...

NEW TECH TRAPS
Keys:Tech trap move
Escape move
Special conditions
Must guard
Must guard,+on GRD
Ring Out

4B* B+K* > BB = left, back (1 hit B), front, right
4B* > 8A+B = back, front, right (2nd hit for all) left
CH 6A > 44B = front, left (GB trap) G (GB trap +) right, back
CH 22_88 BB > 44B = left, right (GB trap) G (GB trap +) back
1(B)K (K hits first) Ein hits > 66B+K (perfectly timed) = front, back , left, right
1(B)K (K hits first) Ein hits > 3B (perfectly timed) = front, back, left, right
(B+G) (medium perfect delay) > 2A = left, right
CE > 44B = front, back, right (hits) G (guard break trap) left
CE B+K 4A+B > 4B or 4B* = front, right, back (K hit whiff) left

B+K > 44A = All (close range only)
1(B)K (K hits first) Ein hits > 6(6)1K* (no Ein) = RO

Note: the last two techs are not new.

Who knows, maybe we can take the Innovation convo out to the forums if you guys want

 

[AndyrooSC]

Since @Zane s great performance at the side tournament at EVO 2013 for SCV coming 9th place with ZWEI we haven't had many discussions/thoughts or feedback on more strategies/set ups to increase our game even further. I'm sure there is still players wanting to increase their ZWEI as much as possible or even new players trying to pick him up but having trouble because of match ups so i'm gonna share my new finds and ideas.

7K and 9K-

This jump attack i see never used because its a high and will whiff over the opponents head if jumping over a low with TC. However the application for 7K and 9K is not for jumping over lows (9B the move you use for that) in fact being TJ is the least important reason why your using this move. Both 7K and 9K have different reasons for their use.

First lets look at their properties-

• -7 on block (nothing can punish it)
• -16 on JG (not a launcher punish)
• +8 on hit
• Catches Step (important for ZWEI)
• Causes W! into full combo
• Being TJ messing up opponents combos if they hit u (also still jumps over throws and hits them)
• Push back on block

So 9K this attack is used best to pressure at/or close to the wall by jumping in to extend the range abit further its gonna catch step and if the wall is behind them is gonna combo into a full wall combo ( 9K W! > 3B W! > 1B} > 6A > 66A+B} > 1K/CE) very rewarding for not a lot of risk.

7K on the other hand can be used for a completely different purpose, 7/8/9K all grant push back on block, 9K's being less useful because of the jump closer, 8K's isn't bad but it isn't the best and lastly 7K having the push back and a small jump back extending the distance between you and your opponent. 7K becomes great for getting the opponent away from you when they are straight in your face just by simply blocking it and it still catches step for opponents trying to move around you plus your in TJ. You could keep them out for a time out or you are sitting on a comfortable life lead.

7K's goodness doesn't stop there opponents who are not aware of the spacing might whiff a short ranged attack afterwards for example a 2K and its a easy whiff punish with A+B. It should be noted that after a blocked 7K if you block your extending your hit box slightly and Ivy's 3B will reach tip range and another ZWEI's A+B would as well however if you aren't holding block they would whiff maybe option select JG could be an answer

You can also backstep/sidestep afterwards making alot more attacks whiff and making some characters have to do some actual guessing of horizontal and vertical attacks to hit you. The usefulness of this attack is Match up dependent a character like Patroklos cant threaten you with any lows and the range of a blocked 7K he would have to run in however a character like Ivy could still reach you with multiple moves.

9K = rewarding pressure and the wall
7K = creating space

@Egg
@MarKOed
@FinalLifeG
@Zane

 

[Zane]

As always, you have pretty interesting findings and an in-depth explanation for things. Great job on this.

With that said, a friend of mine (Tan) helped me do some testing on the moves that we can whiff, still be safe, and will give us the most meter (inspired by Kabal's fire ball spam, Mortal Kombat 9). Basically, all quick pokes would be safe on whiff (for the most part) but would take forever to give a considerable amount of meter. Basic guard pressure moves like 66A+B and KNF B give a big amount of meter, but will leave you at a huge disadvantage. So, we need something in the middle grounds... and that's where 6B, 4(A), 6B+K, and 1(B) come into play.

"Why does Zane keep doing 1(B) when he's far away?" Well, now you know. It keeps the opponent at bay, and it grants me free meter.

Of course, whiffing moves to gain meter has to be done in a smart and smooth way. I believe that with the mentioned moves above (except for 6B) it takes about 20 times to gain half a meter. I will post the exact numbers later today. 8A+B gives really good meter on whiff though.

Another discovery (I think it was made by Zombiebear?). There's a specific time window that if you release 1(B)~ all TC and WR moves the opponent uses to punish you will still be hit. So, in essence, it's as if Ein is hitting horizontal-mid! (wtf?).

One last discovery (made by yours truly) is that if you time B+K* correctly with running K, this will become a manual unblockable set up, just like 6(B+K) > 1A. (yes, Signia... that's why you got hit by it. It wasn't cuz of lag :p).

By the way, Tan, the 66A+B > 4(A+B) glitch does NOT ring out... from anywhere. Why? because you're using max hold 4(A+B) to do the glitch, which does not have RO properties.

@TANHAUSSER1
@ZOMBIEBEAR666
@Signia

 

[Signia]

Whatchu you want...

66A+B wolf is GIable on reaction, no matter the charge, you can react to the wolf's movement. If you charge it enough, you should be able to time a JG at the timing of the GI and you'll nullify the GI.

 

[Zane]

If you charge it enough, you should be able to time a JG at the timing of the GI and you'll nullify the GI.

Oh yeah I forgot Zwei can JG the opponent's GI. Nice Signia.

 

[AndyrooSC]

I like the idea of whiffing for meter, maybe full /mid screen you could 1B) max charge and spam 2a for example while Ein is out there to stop the opponent from running in while your building it

 

[TANHAUSSER1]

By the way, Tan, the 66A+B > 4(A+B) glitch does NOT ring out... from anywhere. Why? because you're using max hold 4(A+B) to do the glitch, which does not have RO properties.

Oh, I know not from anywhere, someone else had said that it did a long time ago, and we laughed about it lol. I tried in practice mode, and like I said, only at tip edge, meaning it would be pointless, because a single B could RO them from the same distance, and would be safer if you whiffed.

 

[TANHAUSSER1]

Oops, I quoted my reply with yours

 

[ZanmeX]

Hello, long time stalker, just thought I could contribute a little...


66A+B on block, 2nd hit can't be stepped/interrupted but can be jGed/GIed. From there the opponent is unlikely to move, which grants additional options.

66[A+B] slight hold leaves ZWEI at more advantage on block, provided the opponent didn't step EIN. 66B after 66[A+B] slight hold cannot be stepped/interrupted, and GI may be impossible depending on the duration of delay. I find it optimal to release EIN just after the 1st hit is blocked. The "string" breaks guard in about 4.5, provides a decent spacing afterwards, negates EIN cooldown and trigger the opponent to try to step/interrupt (which 66A+B beats) or GI on reaction(I haven't had too much success GIing 66A+B and 66[A+B] simultaneously on reaction myself) before EIN is blocked. If EIN is blocked and the opponent is conditioned to be forced to block 66B, it gives potential for post EIN on block run in mixups/KF B.

If the opponent is bent on holding their ground with GI on reaction against EIN to potentially beat both 66A+B and 66[A+B] slight hold shenanigans, 66[A+B] full hold becomes another option. 66[A+B] full hold run in 2K on hit forces the opponent to block the incoming EIN for a similar advantage situation as above: post 66[A+B] full hold run in 2K, 66B cannot be stepped and gives potential for mixups. Even if 2K is blocked, it can't be directly punished and EIN is still unsteppable; it only loses to post 2K on block GI.

You can also opt for 66[A+B] + grab shenanigans to beat GI. Its possible to execute 66[A+B] full hold run in grab for a force grab situation if the opponent hasn't already stepped out of the way, but execution can make it less accessible. I personally go for 66[A+B] full hold 9G grab as it entirely takes away the execution barrier. There's no way to duck the grab unless the opponent ducks before EIN hits, which means they get launched. After grab on whiff, combos for 51 damage(can't be aerial controlled as far as I've tested). If the opponent tries to GI EIN while ZWEI is already in the grab animation, EIN will go through the GI and the opponent just wasted meter.

The GI negation extends further from just this setup, as GI negation works so long as ZWEI is in grab animation. For example, 1B at far ranges might trigger nightmare to opt for CE. So in this position, ZWEI can counter it with jG or whiffed grab as EIN is released.

66A+B on grounded hit, is usually landed during combos or okizeme. Additional options work similarly to 66A+B on block, but significantly safer even on wrong guesses.

Depending on the extent of delay on 66[A+B] slight hold on grounded hit, a ukemi-ing opponent is either still stuck on the ground, or they are launched by EIN. Ideally, this gives an opportunity for more damage in combos. For example, B+K 4B BE, 66[A+B] slight hold run in 1K works if the opponent is still grounded. This discourages opponents from ukemi-ing from 66A+B combos as a whole. Unfortunately it is character specific, most characters can ukemi to ZWEI's right if 66[A+B] is delayed for a launch, but the fundamental idea is to discourage the opponent from back ukemi-ing which will be elaborated later.

Without ukemi, the opponent is mostly limited to holding G, rolling, or wakeup attacks. 66[A+B] full hold is the main tool here.

66[A+B] + grab shenanigans on grounded hit grants similar rewards as it does with on block, but its a lot easier to land and a lot safer. Once again its possible to go for 66[A+B] into a well timed EIN release and grab for a quick way to beat holding G, but it is punished heavily by rolling. Over here there are two benefits to going for 66[A+B] full hold 9G grab: there is no execution barrier and 9G screws up rolling. A commit roll with no intentions to guard by the opponent will result in them rolling back into EIN (although there are character specific instances where the opponent can commit roll into EIN and not be hit, but ZWEI is still safe), and against rolling G, ZWEI is still safe as the opponent must block EIN upon waking up. 66[A+B] + grab shenanigans is only punished by wakeup attacks.

Wakeup attacks can be punished or neutralised, by delayed 2K post 66[A+B] full hold on grounded hit, along with holding G, rolling and side ukemi-ing. If 2K is not delayed, it'll typically whiff against rolling to ZWEI's right. I generally input delayed 2K as 82K, so its easier to judge when ZWEI has recovered from 66[A+B] animation for better timing. Against commit roll, delayed 2K EIN run in 2K becomes a grounded combo. For comparison:
B+K 4B BE 66[A+B] slight delay run in 1K does 87 damage
B+K 4B BE 66[A+B] full delay delayed 2K run in 2K does 67 +46 = 113 damage
Unfortunately EIN does not always combo after the delayed 2K on grounded hit (rolling direction and character specific).
Holding G, rolling G and side ukemi-ing will allow opponents to avoid getting comboed, but put them in a similar situation to the previous 2K setup; the opponent is forced to block EIN and 66B/deal with potential mixups unless they blocked 2K and GI. Delayed 2K is only punished by back ukemi (which 66[A+B] slight delay beats), probably making this option the safest and easiest to land.

Rolling G is probably the most specific response from opponents once they figure out they can avoid any ukemi traps, the grab shenanigans and getting ground comboed from 66[A+B] on grounded hit. It can be observed from the delayed 2K setup (by seeing if they have gotten up to block EIN in time). From here 66[A+B] full hold KF B cannot be avoided in time.

Not sure if I missed anything... Hopefully I'm not repeating too much of old tech. -.-

Okay bye. :P

 

[AndyrooSC]

Yo Wolf Pack :)
I've come up with some more ZWEI shenanigans :P

WRB - BT B+K - G - 6(unless the wall is behind them) - Throw.
This Throw set-up will have a much larger success rate of working if your opponent understands to block in case you mess up your WRB - BT B+K - G - 1K BE combo. Since remaining on the ground would get you relaunched by the 1k BE even if you messed the combo.

CE - B+K - 66A or CE - 66A (easier to connect).
A gimmick. This can RO if the ring edge is to ZWEI's left after landing a CE. Very unfortunately your opponent can Left AC and not be rang out. Still good to go for if you reckon they will not expect it.

66A BE whiff punish/long range pressure tool against some characters.
It was brought up in the innovation message thread but at first it didn't seem very reliable. ZWEI sends EIN really far forward with 66A BE with a big hit-box. At a distance the opponent can just see you do 66A BE and step EIN on reaction, however you could use it against some character's spacing strategies. If EIN hits you can combo CE.

Effective against-
Yoshi in stances
Maxi in stances
Tira attempting to change mood
Algol's bubble game
Another ZWEI charging 1B)


More to come

@Zane
@ZOMBIEBEAR666
@FinalLifeG
@DarkRhythm
@TANHAUSSER1

 

[TwistedAsura]

Since wall combos with Zwei are my absolute favorite thing I have found that after 4B BE W! 3B high W! you can 214B as the enemy lands to put them into a stunned back facing you crouching position. I find that against every enemy none of them have been smart enough to stay crouched while recovering from the stun. If they do anything but stay crouched you can get a back grab on them.(Unless of course against other Zwei,Ast,Voldo).This whole setup does over half health to the enemy.

 

[Zane]

after 4B BE W! 3B high W! you can 214B as the enemy lands to put them into a stunned back facing you crouching position

This is the nastiest setup Zwei has. If you know the follow up, the reset actually takes away 95% of the opponent's health, so it's better to take the back grab.

 

[Blueboyb]

This is the nastiest setup Zwei has. If you know the follow up, the reset actually takes away 95% of the opponent's health, so it's better to take the back grab.

Omfg we need to nerf ZWEI. 2 mny toolz