Character Matchup Tier Project

Tiamat said:
check the first post, it's updated in two different formats now

something I forgot to mention for nm vs kilik:
A lot of times I'll say having good TC moves is good against NM but it's important to realize I'm not just talking about for using against his stances. I'd argue that agA and his large range throws are astronomically more important than NSS or GS. I seriously disagree that Kilik has a spacing advantage on NM. At the range NM is using agA kilik is gonna have to take some big risks to TC it. he CAN...but I don't think it's in his favor to do it often. In any case unless something crazy happens this will stay at 5-5.
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When a Nightmare start zoning me with aGa / 33B, i just go and go with 8_2 5 B of Kilik, this move DUCKS and STEP, unless you are predicted on the timing, Kilik win the Zoning.

But this not mean that Kilik win the match, Nightmare can just wait far far away, and wait an impatient Kilik to attack and then use his best tool = StepG.

But i think, if the 2 player keep patient, i see an advantage for Kilik.
 
hotnikkelz:

This is gonna go on forever so i'm just gonna say a few things and hope this ends it.

I disagree that Basics makes the game or any game for that matter. Basics make u competent and able to compete at the very least with anyone. The good moves from a moveset enhance the basics and make a character that much stronger. If there weren't things like this the terms broken or to overpowered wouldn't be flying around.

Correct me if i'm wrong but when a character has tools that get negated by another character causing him/her to resort to basics and basics only is that not an advantage in itself. Being able to strip away a characters moveset that he/she would be able to better utilize vs. someone else. I believe that's what create's distance between characters. Therefore giving a character advantage. The only thing that would contradict that is if the character that was stripped to the basics had tools that still made that character powerful or threatning. The problem here is you believe Maxi has that and I don't.

Since u saw the vids from the FT10 online of me vs. ATL_R3DD in that thread and u posted i'm gonna assume you read the thread as well. Clearly in those matches there was alot of things I didn't know about Maxi at the time. Therefore what u see as holes in ATL_R3DD's game couldn't be further than the truth. He used what he knew would work against me because I did not know the holes in the strings etc. So technically he did horrible against me seeing as how he naturally had advantages like +Frames constantly which he should not have. Just to throw it in there though. Post that matchup and tips from Krayzie etc. in that thread as well as some of yours what gap do u think there is between me and him since the last time I played him (hint).

Here goes the most important part. My personal opinion as well as other Kilik's in combination with other Maxi opinion as well as international opinions based on this match which has been proven in actual play helps make this decision for me. The match is proven in actual play and overall majority. Until then when Maxi starts magically kicking my Kilik's ass, the majority starts changing there opinion on the matchup then maybe I will agree with u and at the moment it hasn't.

When u do finally come out here it also will help if we can play.
 
Something-Unique said:
Here goes the most important part. My personal opinion as well as other Kilik's in combination with other Maxi opinion as well as international opinions based on this match which has been proven in actual play helps make this decision for me.
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This doesn't have any bearing on whether you are right of not, but this made me laugh. INTERNATIONAL opinion. Does this mean you are pepsi and Johnny is coke? :P
 
Tactu said:
This doesn't have any bearing on whether you are right of not, but this made me laugh. INTERNATIONAL opinion. Does this mean you are pepsi and Johnny is coke? :P
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I will never understand how people can take a comment miss the point and turn it inot something else.

Read. Don't pick out what you want and turn it around.

Its not about my opinion alone as it is about the general overall opinion on the issue. In fact Maxi players themselves see this as a horrid matchup.

International means the French, etc.
 
Something-Unique said:
I will never understand how people can take a comment miss the point and turn it inot something else.

Read. Don't pick out what you want and turn it around.

Its not about my opinion alone as it is about the general overall opinion on the issue. In fact Maxi players themselves see this as a horrid matchup.

International means the French, etc.
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Whoa, chill out dude. Did you totally miss the part about how it doesn't have any bearing on your conversation? Its just a case of reading something and having it trigger something else in your mind. That's all.
 
Lmao! I actually feel like an idiot for that one. I just glossed over it like 3 more times.

Yeah my bad!

To much debating on this Maxi issue for me. I think i'm done for a bit. lol
 
Ceirnian said:
Yeah I read that wrong too, no big deal.
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Its cool dude, I was just having some fun. I enjoy the matchup threads, much more productive than the tier threads in my opinion. And Ciern, the internet, for the lose. All context is lost when reading things over the web. lol.
 
Kilik Character Matchup Revision:

Tiamat this is for u:

Algol: 6/4
Amy: 5/5
The Apprentice: 6/4
Astaroth: 5/5
Cassandra: 6/4
Cervantes: 6/4
Hilde: 4/6
Ivy: 4/6
Kilik: 5/5
Lizardman: 6/4
Maxi: 7/3
Mitsu: 6/4
Nightmare: 5/5
Raphael: 6/4
Rock: 6/4
Seong Mi-na: 6/4
Setsuka: 5/5
Siegfried: 6/4
Sophitia: 5/5
Taki: 7/3
Talim: 6/4
Tira: ?
Vader: 6/4
Voldo: 5/5
Xianghua: 5/5
Yoda: 7/3
Yoshimitsu: 5/5
Yun-seong: 6/4
Zasalamel: 6/4

I am almost 100% sure the above is correct.

I cannot speak for Kilik vs. Tira. The funny thing with that is Tidus (NY) is about the only known Tira player I have ever played and the best one at that but only played his Tira face to face one time at NEC9. That's why I can't comment. Even though I won both matches straight i'm not sure about that match.

I put Kilik vs. Yoshi at a 5/5 because thinking about it I have never really seen a clear advantage vs. Yoshi in that matchup from casuals, online casuals, offline tournaments, MM's against Vicious Suicide (I think) but I never felt outclassed either.

I still wanna debate on Kilik vs. Algol being 6/4 and compare Hilde vs. Algol being 5/5 but I didn't make it to the session yesterday hopefully I can make it today since I think everyone is still chillin today as well.

A few things of the top of my head is that Kilik can punish a number of Algol's good moves that are relatively safe but unsafe at ranges where Kilik's i14-Frames aB would punish at distance. The off chances that Kilik blocks Algol's lows he can punish at any range. Algol's 1A for example. He can punish all of them, Hilde can't. At long range Kilik is better than Hilde at poking Algol with his long range moves. Hilde's moves on the other hand are not as easy to get around the bubbles and harder to apply. There's more but I gotta experiment some more. I have even been experimenting with Kiliks [1]_[3] B+K to see how practical it is to use being on the floor vs. Algol to sneak in on the bubble strat.
 
Tiamat said:
piggy: true

Guys lets focus on Mitsu and Setsuka for now. If you know good mitsu/setsuka players point them here so we can get some ranks worked out.
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laswagga is best setuska player i know maybe the best in my state talk to him as for mitsu i really dont know any super good mitsu players except sirpedy (or however you spell his damn name)
 
SU: I actually just got a nearly full list of matchups from wing zero yesterday I'm gonna add soon. It looks like they are mostly the same ranks anyway. hmm
 
yoda 7/3? How the hell?

Doesn't Asura stuff all roll options? Doesn't Asura stop all bb / aa etc force flip followups?
 
Ceirnian said:
yoda 7/3? How the hell?

Doesn't Asura stuff all roll options? Doesn't Asura stop all bb / aa etc force flip followups?
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Yeah it does. Though its extremely difficult to give anyone a matchup at 8/2 if that's what ur implying so it could be higher and it could be where its at. Either which way Kilik vs. Yoda is a slaughter.

Edit:

Tiamat:

I'm almost positive Kilik has an advantage vs. Algol and is a better matchup for Algol than Hilde is.

4B is golden vs. bubbles.
FC 1B is excellent against bubbles also and tech crouches bubbles (It seems to crush alot of characters mids also)

Generally Kilik vs. Algol means he is unaffected and doesn't have to chase u down at all. No worries vs. hit & run tactics vs. the clock because he can fight at any range.

He can punish all of Algol's lows that are considered good except the one where he shoots that bubble afterwards which the bubble can be GI'ed by the way.

He can punish things that are safe from Algol vs. most characters because Algol's moves have a tendency to push him out of range. But Kilik's i14-Frames aB reaches him.

His throw options and ring out options are better.

His keepout is better because bubbles aren't a solid keep out strat vs. Kilik.

Kilik is overall better at spacing.

4B trading with bubbles also give better damage in favor of Kilik.
 
Sieg Matchups:

Algol: 4|6
Amy: 5|5 maybe 4|6
Appr: 5|5 maybe 4|6
Asta: 6|4
Cass: 6|4
Cerv: 4|6
Hilde: 4.5|5.5
Ivy: 4|6
Kilik: 5|5
Liz: 5|5
Maxi: 6|4
Mina: 6|4
Mitsu: 6|4
Night: 6|4
Raph: 6|4
Rock: 6|4
Sets: 4|6
Sieg: ...
Soph: 5|5
Taki: 5|5
Talim: 6|4
Tira: 6|4
Vader: 6|4
Voldo: 4|6
Xiang: 4|6
Yoda: ???
Yoshi: 5|5
Yun: 6|4
Zas: 6|4

- I.C.E.
 
IceColdEdge said:
Sieg Matchups:
Yoshi: 5|5
- I.C.E.
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I still put Yoshi v. Sieg at 6:4 in Yoshi's favor.

214A TCs and steps a huge portion of Sieg's movelist. Furthermore, Yoshi can punish 3{B} and WS {B} with iMCF / AA on block. Sieg has few answers once Yoshi is in his face. Discuss?
 
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