Character Matchup Tier Project

IceColdEdge said:
Sieg Matchups:
Amy: 5|5 maybe 4|6
Appr: 5|5 maybe 4|6
Asta: 6|4
Kilik: 5|5
Mitsu: 6|4
Night: 6|4
Raph: 6|4
- I.C.E.
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- HA Ice agrees with me. Amy vs Sieg is going down as 5-5 then.
- Apprentice: Ice, I'm very curious why you think Sieg is at risk of being on the losing end for this matchup. I have not actually played it myself but I have some strong theory for why sieg wins 6-4 or so (and yes I do take his A+B throwbreak into consideration).
- asta: so you agree with kdz eh? hmm no asta players been posting in here except saitoh is a problem. not sure what to do here.
- kilik: this goes against kdz's rank. id kinda expect kilik to win this one but maybe you know something
- mitsu rank seems off to me. i feel like people are just throwing 6-4s at him without terribly good reasons. I have played it from the sieg side and I had the impression of a 5-5
- nm: very debateable, though even if you and the french say sieg wins, there are still more people who say NM wins (kdz, lau, rii). keeping it 5-5, seriously doubt this will be changed anytime soon either
- raph: millionz thinks raph has advantage here due largely to spacing reasons so that conflicts. maybe i will just put as 5-5


will post an updated list within the next few hours largely featuring kilik and sieg
 
oh well for what it's worth seig is a huge problem for me when I'm asta. His ranged pokes are better and it's hard ot get inside, I cant punish most of his lows cause he recovers standing and he gets good damage off of TC to discourage grabbing in close. 2_B+K sidesteps bullrush at some ranges, just a general pain.
 
SPQR said:
S-U you really think Kilik vs Voldo is 5/5 even considering how strong Asura is vs. Voldo?
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I base my listing off of primarily how matches play themself out from actual play first and foremost. Then theory/what sounds good on paper.

I can base everything I know off of online, offline tournaments, casuals, and money matches against every character in the game.

Basically what i'm saying is Asura sounds ridiculous on paper and unbeatable but in actual play its not. Its a counter not an attack. You can't just throw it around like Hilde's C3A for example. Asura is unsafe and u can guess wrong.

Outside of that Voldo has never made me feel in total control like Maxi or an uphill battle like Ivy. Therefore its a 5/5.

If I were to focus only on paper and apply strictly theoretical a match like Raphael vs. Kilik would be embarassing as Kilik would get beatdown. However in a real match his weak tracking ability get's him destroyed because it practically takes absolutely no effort to step him.

Thats why while these lists are good for some knowledge actual play is alot better. In actual play Asura is risky just as it is rewarding. A counter can never be a defining factor especially when its unsafe if messed up.
 
These two Asta matchups I am pretty sure:

Vs Ivy: 4/6
Vs Taki 6/4

I am not entirely sure about the ones below yet ...

Vs Siegfried: 5/5 or 4/6
Vs Setsuka: 4/6 or 3/7

Vs Mitsurugi: 5/5 or 6/4
Vs Cassandra: 5/5 or 6/4
Vs Nightmare: 5/5 or 6/4
Vs Xianghua: 6/4 or 7/3
 
HajimeOwari said:
I still put Yoshi v. Sieg at 6:4 in Yoshi's favor.

214A TCs and steps a huge portion of Sieg's movelist. Furthermore, Yoshi can punish 3{B} and WS {B} with iMCF / AA on block. Sieg has few answers once Yoshi is in his face. Discuss?
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He can punish 3 and ws with iMCF, sure. But depending on the Sieg's action he may not always get it on CH. Sieg can just do 3/ws and do nothing afterwards and just eat the normal hit damage which isn't that scary. Also, I could definately see iMCF missing sometimes due to range.
 
updated mostly with seig and kilik matchups. there are a couple matches with .5s now, I figured we can do that, but lets try to avoid it when possible.
 

Attachments

Voldo punishes Asura HARD. He also has great anti Asura/wsB; I can't possibly see this matchup being in Kilik's favor. SU is right: 5/5
 
Millionz said:
He can punish 3 and ws with iMCF, sure. But depending on the Sieg's action he may not always get it on CH. Sieg can just do 3/ws and do nothing afterwards and just eat the normal hit damage which isn't that scary. Also, I could definately see iMCF missing sometimes due to range.
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I'm not implying that iMCF is spammable against Sieg, nor is it a win button. But, your assumptions that iMCF won't hit due to range issues means you've never played a Yoshi that properly utilizes iMCF. iMCF allows Yoshi to maintain pressure up close against characters. This is especially true against Siegfried, who lacks strong panic buttons against Yoshi and has to take risks just to get Yoshi out of his face.

Besides, Yoshi's AA alone shuts down 3{B} and WS {B}. If you're playing Sieg, are you going to continually spam 3{B} or WS{B} because you're just taking normal AA damage? Don't tell me that getting punished doesn't make a difference. Keep in mind, not all characters can punish WS{B} on block, but Yoshi can.

A couple more points...

- 4K shuts down stance dancing unless the Sieg player can anticipate it (read: guess) and spin/sidestep out of the way.
- Yoshi gets ~50 damage if he steps Sieg's B6.
- 214A rapes Sieg. As stated before, it TCs and slightly steps. Anything that Sieg has that's purely high horizontal or linear vertical is going to get owned by 214A.
- 66A+B and 66B punish a whiffing Sieg hard.

I've played this matchup constantly against Botsu who was maining Sieg. He knows the Yoshi matchup inside and out. He will tell you the same thing. This matchup is at least 6/4 in My opinion. Although Botsu told me tonight that it's 7/3 in Yoshi's favor. Sieg has to take a lot more risks than Yoshi to win this fight.
 
Setsuka's match up (revised, more definite opinions and less 7-3) :


Algol: You better find it yourselves, he is banned in France so I don't have an advice.
Amy: 6/4
The Apprentice: Same as Algol
Astaroth: 6/4
Cassandra: 6/4
Cervantes: 6/4
Hilde: 4/6 or 5/5
Ivy: 4/6 or 5/5
Kilik: 5/5 or 6/4 I will detail more just after the match up chart. Now that I have good Kilik experience, I am pretty sure it is at least 5/5.
Lizardman: 6/4
Maxi: 7/3
Mitsu: 6/4
Nightmare: 6/4
Raphael: 6/4
Rock: 7/3
Seong Mi-na: 7/3
Siegfried: 6/4
Sophitia: 6/4
Taki: 6/4
Talim: 6/4
Tira: 6/4
Vader: Don't have an opinion
Voldo: 4-6 or 5-5
Xianghua: 6/4
Yoda: Don't have an opinion
Yoshimitsu: 6/4
Yun-seong: 6/4
Zasalamel: 6/4

I can detail if you want. I am pretty sure the above is true.

Now let's detail Kilik vs Setsu :

Wing_Zero said for Voldo :
Voldo punishes Asura HARD. He also has great anti Asura/wsB; I can't possibly see this matchup being in Kilik's favor. SU is right: 5/5
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The same can be said about Setsuka.
Let's start with Asura :
A non JF Asura blocked = 86 dmg, a stepped asura (easier than you think) is at the very least 60 dmg, and you still have the autoGI option on the second hit when you block the first.
Besides, Setsuka has a very good anti Asura game with very good staple moves like 3K, 214K, 214A, 8K,... and providing you delay correctly some of your mids (or using slow lows too, I had good results using 11A against Asura, the TJ is too fast for the low, and he ends up getting CHed in the second hit) Asura isn't that much of a problem. Kilik doesn't limit your gameplay like he does for some characters.

Now for WS B :
WS B is still a very good move, but Setsuka clearly has the tools to kill it.
A stepped WS B = easy 86 dmg, the push back isn't a problem since you have good range, and you have the tools to kill it with staple moves and powerfull mids : 214B, 3K/214K (up close), umbrella (dangerous), A+K B (very good move against Kilik since it takes away a lot of options of his WS game, and if he blocks he can't punish much), 33B, 4A (when he uses WS B at his max range, gives you a free BB) ...

Besides, the character doesn't fear his zoning game, has better throws than Kilik, won't get punished much by Kilik apart from doing very dangerous stuff (random umbrellas/agB/etc...) while Setsu WILL punish every unsafe stuff you'll do.
Just like against Voldo you'll want to step her moves (which can be hard), in order to get dmg, you'll want to use A+B but if you get it blocked, it's a free punition.

No... I can't see the match being in Kilik's favor. 5/5 seems more reasonable and 6/4 in Setsuka's favor could be realistic.
 
Hotknikkelz :

This one isn't hard at all when playing Setsuka. The risk/reward is just too much for you.
When YunSung will deal 50 dmg, you'll deal 80 ...

YunSung is a solid character with strong evasive game and good pokes, CR is a very good tool against Setsuka, especially when she is in a FC sitation, you'll evade most of her dangerous stuff (umbrella, 214B, 214~3BB, FC 3A+B) and she will have to use WS A and 2A (one being a high and the other being smid so it allows him to make gambles since he has good TC and TJ moves).
Yun pokes are good but Setsuka's are better, it's very hard to out poke her (is it the correct word? sorry for my english), with her i12 to i17 moves being very good and/or more damaging than most of the cast AND her throws with really good damage, if you only try to poke game her you'll end up losing all the time.

Meaning YunSung needs to take risks in order to win ... but Setsuka is a really good character to punish risky stuff.

Besides trying to pressure her with CR isn't a good idea, 4A/step B+K are very good answer to CR pressure, it'll limit a lot YunSung when playing with CR.
 
HajimeOwari said:
snip
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few things

-I think you may have misunderstood my post. I meant due to it's range, iMCF will miss against 3B when used as punishment. I'm not talking about just using it in general.

-And also I never implied Yoshi only has iMCF against 3B. I know he has AA and it is a solid punish. But your post seemed to be giving the impression that he gets a super awesome CH iMCF punish for blocking 3B/WS B and thats nots true. Raph and Amy are the same way in that they get 6BB guaranteed, and 6BBB on CH if the Sieg does anything other than block.

-Yoshi's b6 is pretty linear...its pretty great that Yoshi gets 50 damage but who doesn't get decent damage? Raph gets 61, Cervy gets a 3B combo, X gets 33B. I think most characters in this game get decent damage for stepping a linear move like that. Sorta like how most characters in the game get a decent to good punish for Mitsu 2KB. It's not neccesarily and inherent advantage in the character its just a flaw in the move.

-The 214A thing is interesting. I'd have to see or play matches myself to see how it works out.

oh and we have a pretty good yoshi player here so i understand the power of iMCF:)
 
HajimeOwari said:
I still put Yoshi v. Sieg at 6:4 in Yoshi's favor.

214A TCs and steps a huge portion of Sieg's movelist. Furthermore, Yoshi can punish 3{B} and WS {B} with iMCF / AA on block. Sieg has few answers once Yoshi is in his face. Discuss?
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2A+B, 4B+K and 88B beat a multitude of Yoshis options up close, including staples such as 3K, BB, 2A and iMCF. While 214A definitely can and does evade a lot Siegs options for good damage, the same can be said for Siegs evading moves vs Yoshi staples. Also; B*4, 22kA:2A, 22B etc all stop it for high damage and its not applicable at every range. I dont get your point about 4K vs stance dancing. Spinning around is a major part of it, so a linear big boot is not the end-all-be-all to counter it.
 
50 for a whiff punish is very average. Sieg also gets about that much for whiff punishes so I don't see that as being a factor for yoshi vs sieg matchup. being able to punish sieg's WR is very good though
 
Sacharja said:
I dont get your point about 4K vs stance dancing. Spinning around is a major part of it, so a linear big boot is not the end-all-be-all to counter it.
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Sorry, that wasn't clear. 4K shuts down Sieg from a distance if he decides to stop spinning and commits to another stance. I find this especially true if the Sieg player decides to close in for RSH B_K. It won't catch SH A+B, of course. Sigh. I hate theory fighter.

Tiamat said:
50 for a whiff punish is very average. Sieg also gets about that much for whiff punishes so I don't see that as being a factor for yoshi vs sieg matchup. being able to punish sieg's WR is very good though
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Yeah, it is average. I was just going through a mental list in my head. My bad. =/
 
Maxou said:
Hotknikkelz :
This one isn't hard at all when playing Setsuka. The risk/reward is just too much for you.
When YunSung will deal 50 dmg, you'll deal 80 ...
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That's not quite correct i don't think.
Yun get 60 for CR reversal (doesn't need CH duh)
70+ for CR B CH
Around the same for 236KK if they don't just ukemi (doesn't need CH)
Sets is only going to do 80 if she manages to get B+K series vs WHIFFS, or land something on CH unless i'm mistaken

YunSung is a solid character with strong evasive game and good pokes, CR is a very good tool against Setsuka, especially when she is in a FC sitation, you'll evade most of her dangerous stuff (umbrella, 214B, 214~3BB, FC 3A+B) and she will have to use WS A and 2A (one being a high and the other being smid so it allows him to make gambles since he has good TC and TJ moves).
Yun pokes are good but Setsuka's are better, it's very hard to out poke her (is it the correct word? sorry for my english), with her i12 to i17 moves being very good and/or more damaging than most of the cast AND her throws with really good damage, if you only try to poke game her you'll end up losing all the time.
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I think we disagree somewhat here. Think about it, you said Yun has GREAT TCs, and GREAT TJs. He has an i12 K which makes him one of the faster characters in the game. KKB (CH) is hit confirmable. An i14~15 safe mid K with range. 44B is evasive, 4B+K creates space. How exactly does she outpoke him? If Yun anticipates correctly he gets paid, Sets needs to CH most of the time to truly get that damage. I don't think that's too indimidating. Yun's 2 front throws can RO, and they both have around the same throw range although she gets more damage for hers, Yun might be even bigger. Ducked throws give Sets umbrella, Yun gets 236KK. Fair trade imo.

Meaning YunSung needs to take risks in order to win ... but Setsuka is a really good character to punish risky stuff.
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No i disagree here too, Yun works the gauge easily, and he can space well. 11A is a safe low, his 2K tracks decently and he has good range. Everyone 'technically' takes risk when they do anything. Do a vertical u risk getting stepped, do a throw u risk being ducked. Sets is the same. The only risky thing Yun may do generally is CR.

Besides trying to pressure her with CR isn't a good idea, 4A/step B+K are very good answer to CR pressure, it'll limit a lot YunSung when playing with CR.
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This is not true either. The battle vs CR depends on whether the attack into CR HITS or is guarded when he goes into CR. If CR K:G hits for eg. You CANNOT step Yun, you are in a forced block situation. 3K -> CR and CR K -> CR is a similar scenario. This is the difference between using CR intelligently and just using CR with the hope that it works. On Guard he always has his jumps to keep him safe and he can vary the lengths of these jumps.
 
Tier threads are destined to be full of garbage like the last 12 pages have shown.

That said, Zas having a disadvantage vs Raph? Laughable. Kilik, yes, Setsuka, yes. I'll even give you Voldo. But Raph? Come on, I don't think my Zas has lost to a Raph. Ever. Omega should be the authority on Zas matchups.
 
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