Stop making match-up charts!

It's still 3-7 guys, no doom is not enough when C3A hit you for 80 and push you more than the others chars. Frame advantage is really something here too, because of some specific setups.

Also stepping bullrush so easily is a crime.
 
I think everyone should learn english or french, and stop speack the other language... I get tired of all these endless translation.
Looks like no one agree anyway.





Amy-Tira
Akiru translation said:
About JS,
Tira had 22B JS which is one of her best move.
6A is also one of her best move.
And Tira is not low tier, cause all low tier would dreal to have what she has.
Click to expand...

I must say, this is not very... consistent as an argument. Already told him.


Amy-Lizardman
Pantocrator translation said:
I think it's 5-5. 7-3 is completely not possible.

Autogi :
Malek give some good info about option against autoGi. His throws are also a good answer.

11B
THE MOVE which will stop Amy most options.
It looks like, some clarification are needed. 11B 6[K] 44[K] LC A is a combo for 85 damage (+ there is a tech trap). Depending on the angle (hit confirmable) 11B 6[K] 66A+B is a combo for 93 damage. So, Amy's 66A+B to move forward or zone at mid range is over against Lizardman. 11B is also usable against Amy's 33B, but only with anticipation. How ever, it's 66A+B which is Amy's most dangerous mid range tool. Also, 11B can deal 100 damage when used to counter auto Gi thanks to the counter hit. So it's very risky for Amy, without talking about RO. Finally, the move is abusable, espescially if Amy used lot's of 6BB. And it can also be used as a zoning tool.
And what's the drawback ? only 6BB...

RO
Again 11B. Amy's Ro game which is very strong is dangerous against Lizardman.
Her best options are 33B/step 33B or auto Gi. But if she guess wrong, it's her who will be RO.

Punishment:
No good punishment from both side. They are no big deal. Amy will be able to use 6BB very often depending on range. and Lizardman basics are still usable and efficient with good options.

LC
Amy when FC is bad. It's one of her onyl drawback. WS moves are useless, and 66B is too slow.
Pressing LC A NH => LC A you need at least an i13 mid to stop it. Amy don't have this tool.
Of course, LC is not perfect. But amy will have to guess.

Pushback :
Lezard have more than enough pushback. + it is also pushed back very far.
Thuggish's example with 2B+K is easy to understand. Lizard goes from close range to mid range when he blocked it !
So close range will be hard to reach for Amy, and Lizard has one of the best back run.

2B+K :
The most important point in the end.
First, Lizardman don't punish very well. 6B looks like to be the best usable punishment 25 de dégâts, +2 on hit and great pushback.
How ever, because of Lizardman hit box, 2B+K wil whiff VERY OFTEN.
Lizardman hit box in neutral is very strong against lows (Example with Sieg low throw that didn't work on him). When Lizardman is high guard, this strengh is a little weaker, but still here.
But 2B+K 's range is very weak, so should dash or run for long before to be able to use it. which is another risk against Lizardman who deal lots of damage even on NH.
So all this combine (pushback + Lizard strength agaisnt low + weak range of 2B+K) shows that 2B+K lost is strength in this particular match up.
And this move, is the true strengh of Amy. It's her main mix up tool, the reason to guess against her.
This is not a little advantage, with only 3 pixels differences with other characters.
It's a true advantage for Lizardman, and to use it he just has to stand with or without guard nothing more.

Mid range
Amy is strong here, but 11B can frightened her enough so Lizard can play is usual game.
66A is unsafe, so what ? Lizardman moves are still very good in term of risk/reward.

Crusher
Some usefull tools.
1K is strong in this match up. Of course you can block it, but that's not the point !
It is used against high, step and 4A. Little drawback + opponent cannot play without to think of this move.
A+B can stop lows spam. 9K which leave to "only" +7 on hit.
Click to expand...

Amy-Setsuka
cynefyl translation said:
The drawback of execution is not an argument. It depends on people about this when pressured, nothing with match-up.
At pressure game, damage are for Setsuka.

If Amy decide to press a lot, with auto Gi, attack at disadvantage, ... so Setsuka can use 4A, 6K or even umbrella. And this is going to hurt Amy anytime Setsuka guess right. Without to notice about the 1/3 life lost anytime Setsuka step something.

Against Amy who just play KD moves + wake up, it's 5-5.
Cause for all the rest, Setsuka is better.
Click to expand...

Amy-Talim
Zero I have to disagree with you. I think 7-3 is accurate.
In my opinion, you discribed well a 6-4 to Amy.
How ever you forget to speack about 2B+K wich is a low that KD in neutral. Talim don't have such a move.
And Amy's wake up game is not something you can compare to Talim's one.
Amy can kill you with only KD. Talim cannot do such a thing.
And as you said, both character fight close range. So Amy will have as much KD opportunity as Talim, but the wake up game to follow will not be the same.

I remember Tresto who told one day, that matematically speacking Amy's KD = 80 damage (average).
From time to time KD = 20, but from time to time KD = 240. And overall KD = 80.
I don't have the exact explanation, but that's what I remember.
Anyway Amy's wake up game should not be underestimated.
 
I do not agree with the person who discussed lizardman, and somewhat disagree with setsuka discussion. Lizardman step is bad. If you don't step Amy, she should be winning. Also it's her step that makes her really good also. These 2 people would have to play me to understand. Theoretically anything can happen. But I've played enough with amy to know little details like this. It's the small things that players know + adaptation that win many matches.
 
I'm not understanding. I know Amy's wakeup is good. It's the best in the game in my opinion. And 2B+K is an amazing low. I remember saying that Talim's wakeup isn't nearly as good as Amy's

Of course Talim does not have a move like that. No one else in the game does. If we're going with this logic and this move determines the whole matchup, Amy should be 7-3 vs the entire cast. But she's not. Sure she has lots of opportunities to KD Talim due to being in close. But can't we say that for just about the whole cast?

I can see your argument (tresto's argument) about the KD damage. But the amount of damage it does depends on how many times the Amy guesses right. Again, her wakeup is really good, but how does Amy's KD damage hurt Talim any more than it hurts characters like Kilik?

In any match, at any time, a good Amy player can gain momentum over anyone. I don't care what character they use. Amy guessing right on wakeup can make every matchup look like it's hopeless, (even the ones people say are 5:5). It just happens. But it can't happen all the time.
 
Still more translation...

Sakon said:
I agree with Pantocrator.

About Mixup Post 1A hit, 66K beats everythings except 2A, so Lizard can mixup 9K +7 on hit.
Against 6BB Lizard can also 44AB = combo +90...

Against auto-gi 4B & 66B+K are there. (66B+K = combo 120 + pressing LC) .

In this MU Lizard should not stay Close to Amy. I don't think 7-3.
Click to expand...

Maxou said:
Damage overrated.

Yes lizard has damage but combo with 33B:B are not consistent ! JF is like Yoshi's suicide.

It's stupid to speack about 1A mix up with just one or 2 moves.
Amy can step or back dash.

It's not a point that decide match up.

Lizardman's Ws KKK does 70 damage counter, and it'sTJ. Can't this be usefull on wake up ?

I don't agree with 7-3, nor with your arguments (about Sakon)
Click to expand...

Amy-Taki
alucardo said:
Taki beats lots of usefull mi range tool fro Amy with one move: 22A.
33b,66a+b,66b,etc...even at disadvantage. Only 1A and 3A beats Taki's 22A.

Close range, Taki has the advantage. Amy cannot stop PO pressing. And CF game is very strong in PO.

More precisely:
Amy only has one move able to stop PO STEP which is 3A. The others moves can be stepped included 2A, and punished.
Against 3A, Taki can HOVER faint PO K for only 17 damage yes, but she can press/mix Amy again with throw/unblockable/PO K/1B/33A...
PO K blockstun can be followed with 3K which will beat all Amy's move or 1B which will double hit vs Amy's 6BB.

When Taki hit confirm 1BA or 33A, PO K will beat 6BB and PO B will beat the others options.

Taki's wake up is not so bad as well (weeker than Amy, of course) with all of her tech trap.
Click to expand...

Ahriman said:
Taki-Amy: 5-5. agree with Alucardo. Taki can 88A without lot's of risk, even when she whiff she'll end very far from Amy. Her broken step to 22B + good wake up game OTG with fc1A+B et 4A+B cancel PO can deal as many damage as Amy, cause this is probably one of the only match up where Amy is not helped by frames.

Amy-Tira: 6-4 I agree with most of what had been said, but JS is not really enough to deal with Amy. I can't see better than this for Tira.

Amy: Setsu: 4-6. I still don't change my mind. Setsu can deal 1/3 life easy with step B+K, and A+K A/33B step 33B give her a way to attack Amy without risk. But Setsuka has to be able to punish 2B+K with 33B which is not easy.

Amy-Lizard: 5-5 Lézard is strong. His main problem is the lack of damaging mid fast enough. But he has lots of damage. LC can be used when Amy is on ground, and 1[K) can has some use has Pantocrator said. Step 11B is possible on most Amy's mix up + Lizard can really stay out of Amy's range. And 2B+K statement is true. Test it, and you'll see.

I'll talk about Voldo later.
Click to expand...

Zero
In my opinion, here are the ways to deal with Amy's ground game:
- Hilde
- To be able to punish her 2B+K as hard as it can deal damage (RO option on punishment is a plus)
Sophitia, Cassandra, Voldo (theoritically)
- To be able to outclass Amy in others aspects of the game, better risk/rewark
Setsuka (100%), others in a certain degree
- To be able to forced her to add another option in her wake up game because of yours
Kilik, Xianghua
You already explain that Talim and Amy are pretty even except that Amy is safe whereas Talim isn't.
And it looks like Talim don't really had option to punish or to forced Amy to guess more on her wake up game so...
I think it's a 7-3.
But that's just my opinion. I'm still waiting for FR Talim players opinion.
 
All I was saying in regards to Amy's ground game is that, regardless of her opponent, she always has options to knock you back down and reset. There will be rounds that Amy just appears to be unstoppable due to correct guessing on wakeup, that's all.

As for Talim, she would use Ws A to punish 2B+K which ROs to Talim's left. (Not a huge amount of damage but it breaks up momentum.)

Having played this matchup often, it's really hard for me to see this being just as hard for Talim as other 3/7 matchups like Ivy or Voldo.

It is your opinion though, so I can't really prove it to you one way or the other. Who exactly are the french Talim players that you're waiting on? I'm guessing Freakysound maybe?
 
Well about Amy's ground game, most of the time when she knocks you down you still have two chances to avoid damage: JU her 236KK and if you fail, you can still guess what she will do next.

I always thought that Amy vs Lizardman was in Amy's favor. I've played against DI's LM with my Amy more than once. She can punish a lot of LM moves that I can't punish with Ivy which prevents him from spamming them (like 66A), even if 6BB is only like 15 dmg she still gets initiative because of frame advantage all the time. And this helps her a lot.

And against his Lizard Crawl I think she can use 4A. It won't hit him but she will automatically step him so I think he is then forced to leave LC, because he can't do anything other than that B+K roll. I could be wrong though, never actually checked that in training mode.
 
To everyone saying they like this thread:

I think it's safe to say that, character match-ups are best discussed after all the biggest tournaments are long and gone. Then we can finally chat without the insults and comments like, "HA! Well if you played me then you'd know why I'm right. Just you wait, dumbass."

At this point the posers are gone and only the enthusiasts remain free to contend, just like a real community.
 
Saitoh said:
It's still 3-7 guys, no doom is not enough when C3A hit you for 80 and push you more than the others chars. Frame advantage is really something here too, because of some specific setups.

Also stepping bullrush so easily is a crime.
Click to expand...

1. You don't shoulder rush, same frames on block. Stops player from stepping.
2. I don't know of any setups that Hilde has against astaroth. Point those out..and within one hour I'll have answers for those.
3. C3A, yea...it's scary, but so is Asura and it's just about the same damage, but i don't see how that match-up isn't 3:7 [/sarcasm]

All i'm saying is...at best it's 4:6 Hilde, i do not doubt that she has the advantage, just not as wide as Algol v. Astaroth

PS....you're right, stepping bullrush is Sacreligious...that and 66B losing it's special-mid property is also a crime.
 
Let me rephrase JAG:

what i mean by that is that it REALLY hurt astaroth when 66B became just a High, when it was a High and a Special-Mid. I do forget that most asta players aren't from the US.
 
Chickenwing said:
Let me rephrase JAG:

what i mean by that is that it REALLY hurt astaroth when 66B became just a High, when it was a High and a Special-Mid. I do forget that most asta players aren't from the US.
Click to expand...

Hey wait, there is NO! misunderstanding.

It´s just that i thought you could mean it in a sarcastic way... The 66B change.

´Cause 66B was really good in SCIII.. For some players too good...

But now i know that you meant it serious.
 
Hilde vs Asta is all about Hilde's step, You can body splash some of her stuff, but her step and you whiffing is what makes it very bad for Asta. She doesn't have to attempt side steping Asta's grabs, RTD for the most part was just back dashing and my grabs were missing. 6:4 IMO.

Basically she can get out of Asta's grab range, and at mid to further she can just sidestep Bullrush, and so that lives you chasing her around, at that range you can't afford to whiff and her stuff is faster.
 
i guess i take it none of you shoulder rush like me....*sigh*

The only real reason for shoulder rush is to kill the step, or to the very least, control where they step. Once you control that aspect of the game, it should be easier to grab her.
 
Malek: Amy doesnt need aGI no get through. she can get well with a lot of stuff. She has her amazing step. So amy does 33B, B+K , what you do to beat this? you have to come up with a strategy that is not optimal like 11B, b/c if amy ajust a little bit, start, say 33B step 33B, what now? you have to do throw now. But if amy use 33B 3A she duck throw and beat 11B, so now what? you use mid, or try to CH, but what if amy just duck, she beat throw and block/punish 11B. Its not one of that "if-then" arguement, note that all Amy has to do is _basic_ stuff she can do anytime and she can adjust easily and "good" answer is something like BB/throw, b/c this way you dont multiply options, but if you do that, you are heaviily outtdamaged on reverse. To have a "good" damage, you have to adjust and use "damage per guess" i.e. 1/1 guess ratio. Where Amy guess ratio will always be high at at least 2/3 and increase as you add more options. Key word here is multicoverage. And amy is good at it.

Now you have that stuff of being able to interrupt everything with 6BB. Arguement like if she does that then I do this is stupid, b/c nobody seem to care actually write it down on paper and do simple math. When you multiply situations/moves your reward drastically drops at least against amy that is. And thats even if you dont count her ground game in. If you do... well, you get it.

Also note how people like thuggish operate major strategy factors, like step, where people from your forum start providing dubious "in-depth". There is difference in dealing with situation and getting in and out of it. Amy is really good at forcing game at opponent. It will usually be up to her, what you have to deal with. And I'm already so tired with all this arguement "amy will get evaded, stepped" to do this you first have to find a situation where it work 100% there IS NONE unless amy is stupid enough to use non-KD moves, so all your "step, GI etc" will happen either very rare (and you will really need to nail it down, so you react quick b/c amy will not spam stuff like 3A or 1A but use it when you expect) or use it at your own risk while situation is not determined (i.e while moveing around) you do understand how much riskier that is and that is only possible to do consistantly when you read opponent to a degree where you can do whatever to beat him.
 
To me it seems like a flaw (one of her few) that Amy must use things like 3A and WS B as part of her options, since they don't provide major immediate reward and she has to guess twice to get good damage.

Maybe in this situation (Amy 33B blocked), you have some room to play around with things like 8wayrun to avoid B+K K and WSB. Especially since certain characters cannot be hit by 2B+K after 3A without Amy dashing forward (i.e. IVY :P ).

So, you can try something like launch/throw/8wayrun. Your throw beats her step, auto GI. Your launch is there to stop her 3A or duck, and your 8wayrun can stop her auto GI, impatient WS B (not on reaction, which even Thuggish does a lot).


The scariest thing is when she guesses correctly with step 33B, because that leads to the ground game that we all love so much....and believe it or not, even after talking to thuggish after our match, I don't think it immediately occured to him that I wasn't using a mid immediately after blocking things like that (he only started using 3A out of disadvantage much later into our games). So maybe play around a little with weird option select like throw/sweep or 8wayrun even though it's not really a mixup.


Edit: what am I talking about? you have to do the mid eventually and that is where she gets you with her step 33B. Like you said, Belial, it seems to always work out in her favor. I did have some success with using horizontal mids like CL 3A and WP 3A, since they beat step and 3A, and provide minor reward if she ducks, but I guess not every character has horizontals like that...and then that brings me back to what you said about increasing your number of options. It seems she can always use fewer options to cover your options.
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
Awesome, I just had a conversation with myself where I tried to give helpful input but only ended up supporting what belial said...

I should just learn to stop putting my foot in my mouth. XD
 
I'm pretty sure Belial said it, but the reason Amy's so effect is because she has tons of options defensively and offensively that cover a wide range of the opponent's because of the game's mechanics (which is why she can basically go into matches with the same type of game regardless of character).

I mean, you used 33B blocked as an example but you also have to realize that, because of her tools (her aGIs in particular), the defensive player doesn't necessarily gain the initiative. Even after 33B, she has the ability to step G/whiff punish, do a KD TC attack, use an aGI, or just block.

I mean, you were talking about delaying attacks, but, knowing personally how Thugish plays, he probably just isn't comfortable playing you yet. Any time you go defensive, you're forfeiting your advantage and giving your opponent the ability to continue their mixup. I'm not saying being defensive is a bad thing in the least, but I think you're honestly underestimating Amy's tools and not realizing you're still playing to Amy's tune.

Still, I honestly don't think she's as bad as some people, so yeah. She just has a bunch of more specialized, mini-asuras. >_>
 
Playing defensive isn't underestimating Amy's tools, it's the opposite. It doesn't matter which character (that isn't banned) YOU pick, you still have to let Amy dictate the offensive. If the character can't punish her hard after stepped and/or blocked moves, they're pretty much screwed. Simple as that. This is a LONG discussion about Amy yall are havin...
 
sWoRD_LoRD said:
Playing defensive isn't underestimating Amy's tools, it's the opposite. It doesn't matter which character (that isn't banned) YOU pick, you still have to let Amy dictate the offensive. If the character can't punish her hard after stepped and/or blocked moves, they're pretty much screwed. Simple as that. This is a LONG discussion about Amy yall are havin...
Click to expand...


It's because it's an educated discussion...something you wouldn't know anything about :)

All jokes aside, Amy can pick you apart defensively, even if she doesn't mindlessly attack you. Once that player has that figured out, offensively she can tower over you. One key thing against an Amy player is that you have to have the right amount of patience to tolerate a fight against amy.

I'm saying that and not mentioning frames, advantage/disadvantage because if you try to play 100% perfect calibur, you won't win.
 
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