SC5 'Ivy' Story/Possibilities/Speculation

[Ring]

The reason I believe she is hard to use is not purely down to execution, its the sheer amount of thinking a sets player constantly does

If that was the reason for being difficult to use then Ivy would probably be the most difficult character to use in fighting games history.

 

[Synraii]

C Viper takes that spot ring =P

 

[KingAce]

SC4 Ivy is definitely the easiest so far. Making her any easier doesn't bother me, since there is no SG damage and her command throws( which I assume is the easy part) do shitty damage now.

 

[Synraii]

... Well at least somebody agrees with me =/

 

[Ring]

Let's not confuse hard to play and hard to master. The hardest characters to play in this game are the weakest ones, because it takes a lot of effort with them to win. Ivy on the other hand is by far the most difficult character to master in the game because of her complexity.

But saying that SCIV is the easiest Ivy reincarnation so far is just rubbish. The easiest was SC2 Ivy.

 

[Linkrkc]

Ivy on the other hand is by far the most difficult character to master in the game because of her complexity.

Disagree, for multiple reasons. One, strong SG damage on her most viable moves. Two, stance lock. Three, her execution heavy moves were not necessary to compete at the highest levels; they were a style preference more than anything else.

When you add this all up, what does it mean? No longer did you have to work to break turtles, as the game would do it for you. No longer did you have to weigh the merits of switching stances to use some of her better moves (such as CL 1B,B+K). No longer did you need to spend hours perfecting her JFs or command throws. She became what we hate. She became a brain dead top tier character.

 

[Destinizish]

Disagree, for multiple reasons. One, strong SG damage on her most viable moves. Two, stance lock. Three, her execution heavy moves were not necessary to compete at the highest levels; they were a style preference more than anything else.

When you add this all up, what does it mean? No longer did you have to work to break turtles, as the game would do it for you. No longer did you have to weigh the merits of switching stances to use some of her better moves (such as CL 1B,B+K). No longer did you need to spend hours perfecting her JFs or command throws. She became what we hate. She became a brain dead top tier character.

I'm kind of glad someone finally agrees with what I've thought about SCIV ivy for a while.

I remember picking her up and just being like, "wow some of these moves are such BS," and, "Oshi she gets away with so much stuff because of her ridiculous CL backstep" I never really mained ivy, but I've done better with her in casuals at times than I do with my own main.

But no, I'm not saying Sets is hard, either. She just depends so much on the other guy's playstyle way more than Ivy does in SCIV. When playing sets I'm constantly baiting stuff to punish, and playing way passive aggressive, having to work off of what the other guy does. With Ivy, she just has so many positives that I feel like I can throw out an offense that is far simpler than that of other characters.

 

[dittO]

I'm glad that most people realized in the end that SCIV Ivy became very simple to use at end-game.
CL1B,B+K or SWBB, then add a simple mid/low/throw setup and there you have it.
It's not that her command throws were useless (on the contrary), but in the end she wasn't very hard to use.
There were many characters that were way more difficult than her.

 

[Ring]

I never questioned how strong she is. All this means that Ivy, aside of being so complex, can be played in a simple yet effective way to win. But isn't that the same with other characters? My question is, can we call a gameplay like that "mastered"? I wouldn't call her brain dead until I see someone pick up Ivy and compete with other players on high level play after a week or few months of practice (for example, see SomethigUnique). We can call her anything, but can't deny that she took the longest to figure out of all characters.

 

[dittO]

I never questioned how strong she is. All this means that Ivy, aside of being so complex, can be played in a simple yet effective way to win. But isn't that the same with other characters? My question is, can we call a gameplay like that "mastered"? I wouldn't call her brain dead until I see someone pick up Ivy and compete with other players on high level play after a week or months of practice (for example, see SomethigUnique). We can call her anything, but can't deny that she took the longest to figure out of all characters.

It's true that she took the most out of all characters to get figured out, and in the end I didn't like how her gameplay turned out to be. It's not that I disagree with what you said, it's just that I speak only for myself.
I don't know how many people will understand this but in SCIV, I used 2 Ivy "gamestyles". One gamestyle for tournaments and one gamestyle for my own pleasure.
With Ivy in SCIV the only thing someone needs to get a grip of, in order to be competent with her is to know how her stances work (holding buttons etc). After that, it's CF all the way.

 

[Awestruck]

Don't mean to sound like an asshole, but hasn't the topic at hand sort of fallen off here?

 

[Ring]

We always have these discussions at the end of every game. I remember 3 years ago we whined about how weak SC3 Ivy was compared to top tier characters, now it's the other way around. Perhaps we will have to move these posts later to another thread.

It's true that she took the most out of all characters to get figured out, and in the end I didn't like how her gameplay turned out to be. It's not that I disagree with what you said, it's just that I speak only for myself.
I don't know how many people will understand this but in SCIV, I used 2 Ivy "gamestyles". One gamestyle for tournaments and one gamestyle for my own pleasure.
With Ivy in SCIV the only thing someone needs to get a grip of, in order to be competent with her is to know how her stances work (holding buttons etc). After that, it's CF all the way.

I also don't like the way she turned out. That's mostly because after all this training I put in her I can easily get accused of tier whoring, but that's another story. I only can't imagine someone picking Ivy and beating everyone on high level play "just like that". The only Ivy players who get tournament wins with her are the veterans. Seems only they know her good enough that they can take advantage of this simple gameplay and actually win with it. But again it's just my opinion. I agree with Link that she is strong, but I disagree on the brain dead character part, but maybe I just have a different definition of it.

 

[DustbusterGF]

The loss of moves and stances is never a good thing never, for those dedicated ivy pros. When SCV comes out and your asking yourself why cant i do this,why dont i have this. why im a playing a downgraded version of my character.
Welcome to MY Maxis world.
once you start fantasizing about moves that old characters should have you.

.

HEres a notion namco older characters should never lose moves or stances, they should only be refined, hell if they become overpowered lower the damage output on moves or make the character Physicaly weaker(Akuma)

SC5 is going to make or break my main characters or just make me quit SC period. cause i cant play/use characters that b,b, range runaway b,b low trip b,b. thats too mindless and basic. im talkin all characters with swords minus Yoshi.

HEll icant wait if maxis out Fine But Sad, if he is in Awesome, why because namco has no where else to go with him but UP.
MaxiSC2= Great. SC3= what the fuck no looping. SC4=Wow Almost back to normal:) .SC5 = SC2+SC4 Movesets [praying]
TalimSC2= BAnanaS. SC3= what the fuck no control. SC4=A joke Fail. .SC5 just go back to SC2 Style
RapSC2= Funcontrols. SC3=simple, dull, basic. SC4=NIce,vampire crap not needed. SC5 = SC2+SC4 more evades

TiraSC3= so many moves, movelist great. fun to play. SC4= what the fuck, no stuns, less moves, taking damage when doing moves, shouldnt ivy take damage everytime she does 214B. SCV= dont give a fuck suprise me

 

[KingAce]

I don't remember that discussion...as far as history tells Ivy has always been strong. Just few were able master her. In SC4 someone wrote a formula and then everyone just followed that formula and she become more accessible...however even in SC4 at no time was she considered weak.

I think the point of discussion here is, to me at least in SC5 she looks to be weaker, or normalize against the rest of the cast. What is there to fear now?

 

[Eli123s]

The whole alot of you are Scrubs. Always crying about something. It not like any of you can pick up Ivy and use her well. I do agree that some of her move have to be toned down because they are very strong. But Ivy user put more work into using her. Whatever they do in SC5 and they tone her down, it wont matter. At the end of the day Ivy will always be greater that you, and I hope she make you rage 10x as much in SC5. GG Scrubs

 

[Linkrkc]

We always have these discussions at the end of every game. I remember 3 years ago we whined about how weak SC3 Ivy was compared to top tier characters, now it's the other way around. Perhaps we will have to move these posts later to another thread.

Haha, we do, don't we? I'm not sure how much longer this discussion will last, since we seem to agree on more than we disagree.

Regarding the "only veterans win" comment, what about Woahhzz and Scud? Forgive me Scud if you had been competing before SC4, but I knew pretty much everyone on the US east coast scene in SC3 and never ran into Woahhzz. Both have very simple styles from what I remember, and last I heard they were both considered the best in their respective countries.

I definitely agree with you that just learning a simple winning style isn't mastering the character. However, the fact that a simple winning style even works proves you don't need to master Ivy to the same extent as before. Expert play and intermediate play in SC4 look close to the same, and that bothers me.

To me, brain dead means that you have too many moves that cover many holes and complement each other. This is oversimplified, but imagine if move X only loses to sidestep right. Then move Y only loses to ducking. You can do move X until they sidestep right, then do move Y until they duck. Then do move X again. Then move Y. Etc. The thought process doesn't need to go any deeper than mixing those two moves up. That's my definition of brain dead, at least. Sure, an average player will still lose to good players with a brain dead character, but it will be closer than if they used a character with fewer multipurpose attacks. Is Ivy as easy as Amy? No. I do think you're overestimating how long it would take to start winning, though.

Don't get me wrong; I want Ivy to be good in SC5, but she should require a higher level of mastery than others to unlock that potential. Despite my earlier post, I'm not interested in the "let's make everything hard to execute" discussion, because that's not challenging; that's muscle memory. I do think Ivy needs some damaging yet execution heavy things, but her overall game plan should require a more cerebral approach. She should have advantages and disadvantages off of each move and be forced to choose which branch to go with. For example, take something like SW 3B. You could have the regular version still force crouch, but not push them out and only give a slam knockdown on CH (like CL WS B). Then you could have a different version that shifts to WP, which leads to the bounce on CH (and a bigger combo) and pushes them out on block, but it no longer forces crouch, is half as good on NH (plus you're stuck in WP with them close to you) and is -10ish on block. Finally, you could spend meter and get a version that has the best of both. I ignored SG damage in this example because I don't know if it's in the new game.

This forces Ivy players to make many more decisions than the average character (giving competitive players the "challenging to play at a tournament level" learning curve we wanted), builds play style variety intrinsically (some will mostly go for damage, some for mix up), and keeps her trademark versatility intact. I apparently missed the "tell Namco what you want" time period though, so I just have to sit tight and hope for the best.

 

[Violent Vodka]

another thing im quite scared to death about is if they go with what seems to be using SS/CS by using up meter to replace a normal throw or something,they might even make it so you cant use one of the throws without building up the meter,that is going to be really lame,btw when you get that ivy thread up what were going to send let me know ok?though on monday ill be on holiday again..

Well, I heard someone say that it MIGHT be, they had no clue, just speculation, that you could use two bars to make the throw inescapable. That'd be cool, and convenient.. However, it could also use two bars to use the throw you're not in the right state for.. SS? was always done in whip, right?

 

[Violent Vodka]

yes if they do get rid of coiled or not she needs to be able to control her weapon fully,i liked her sc2 style but only having two states and barely having control over them and too many moves that forced the stance chance really sucked

I'd hate them getting rid of a state AND taking away our control.. Ivy in SC4 was so much better because with the control, you could come up with SO many more combos.. Downgrading us won't help much with "liking the series".. I'd still be a diehard Ivy fan, but.. :x

and i agree the long hair design would make a great 2p costume for her,her 2p costumes are awful apart from the sc3 one in my opinion but i know people werent keen on that either

I liked the idea behind it more so than the actual costume. It was cool that she was dressed for their funeral, but it was a slightly odd outfit.

 

[Ring]

Wall of text incoming! It's always nice to have an interesting discussion on Ivy forums.

Regarding the "only veterans win" comment, what about Woahhzz and Scud? Forgive me Scud if you had been competing before SC4, but I knew pretty much everyone on the US east coast scene in SC3 and never ran into Woahhzz. Both have very simple styles from what I remember, and last I heard they were both considered the best in their respective countries.

Yeah, that's right. But with "veterans" I was mostly referring to people who mained Ivy since the release. I believe that's enough time to learn how to play her and SC in general. Some of us also played previous installments of SC and that helped us to understand the game better and faster, because of that players like Scud and Woahhzz had to catch up with us but it didn't take too long. Maybe that's because SCIV was a simpler game than SC3.

I definitely agree with you that just learning a simple winning style isn't mastering the character. However, the fact that a simple winning style even works proves you don't need to master Ivy to the same extent as before. Expert play and intermediate play in SC4 look close to the same, and that bothers me

I 100% agree. I guess it's bothering for us because we had to actually master her to discover the simple winning style which is then absorbed by newer players. They get straight to it. But then again I think it's really hard to use that style efficiently unless you know the character in a satisfactory degree. This is exactly what Something Unique tried - a simple spacing and SG heavy style which didn't work out for him very well from what I seen.

To me, brain dead means that you have too many moves that cover many holes and complement each other. This is oversimplified, but imagine if move X only loses to sidestep right. Then move Y only loses to ducking. You can do move X until they sidestep right, then do move Y until they duck. Then do move X again. Then move Y. Etc. The thought process doesn't need to go any deeper than mixing those two moves up. That's my definition of brain dead, at least. Sure, an average player will still lose to good players with a brain dead character, but it will be closer than if they used a character with fewer multipurpose attacks. Is Ivy as easy as Amy? No. I do think you're overestimating how long it would take to start winning, though.

I get what you mean. Haha that seems almost like CL 1B,B+K/CL 66A. Maybe I am overestimating a bit but that makes me remember one thing you said yourself some time ago. It was something about you watching Malek's and Scud's videos after you quit and that they made you realize how to play SC4 a lot better. That was about a year ago I think. Sorry for brining this up but that was the first thing that came to my mind. I'm not sure if I understood it correctly but that seemed like after 2 years of playing you weren't able to develop a playstyle that would allow you to dominate over other top players. Also last year Malek told me that your style was very different from his, and more like SC3 instead of the typical turtly, spacing and heavy SG.

Perhaps how long it takes before we discover the true strengths of Ivy is how often we play against great opponents and have to adapt and search for solutions. I know you weren't as active with SC4 as you were with the last game.

Don't get me wrong; I want Ivy to be good in SC5, but she should require a higher level of mastery than others to unlock that potential.

I don't know how you feel about this but for me that's how it went with SCIvy. I believe it took a long time to uncover her true potential which turned out to be... well you know =P

Despite my earlier post, I'm not interested in the "let's make everything hard to execute" discussion, because that's not challenging; that's muscle memory. I do think Ivy needs some damaging yet execution heavy things, but her overall game plan should require a more cerebral approach. She should have advantages and disadvantages off of each move and be forced to choose which branch to go with. For example, take something like SW 3B. You could have the regular version still force crouch, but not push them out and only give a slam knockdown on CH (like CL WS B). Then you could have a different version that shifts to WP, which leads to the bounce on CH (and a bigger combo) and pushes them out on block, but it no longer forces crouch, is half as good on NH (plus you're stuck in WP with them close to you) and is -10ish on block. Finally, you could spend meter and get a version that has the best of both. I ignored SG damage in this example because I don't know if it's in the new game.

I like this idea. It reminds me of SC3:AE a bit, and BD as well. There's still a chance that we can see something like this as they started to introduce this in the PSP version, like CL 66B/B+K, 66AB/66AA+K etc

This forces Ivy players to make many more decisions than the average character (giving competitive players the "challenging to play at a tournament level" learning curve we wanted), builds play style variety intrinsically (some will mostly go for damage, some for mix up), and keeps her trademark versatility intact. I apparently missed the "tell Namco what you want" time period though, so I just have to sit tight and hope for the best.

We plan on creating a "whishlist" thread and when it fills up a bit send the link to Daishi. Seeing the vid I could say that they are still experimenting with Ivy, there was no WP present at all etc. so I think it's not too late!

 

[Linkrkc]

Wall of text incoming! It's always nice to have an interesting discussion on Ivy forums.

Agreed. I missed you guys. <3

I plan on being around more often now. SC5 info has rekindled my soul. Everything I've seen and heard sounds like good news.

I'll just quote this one part since I agree with/understand your point on everything else, but it'll still occupy you for a few minutes. Story time. =)

I get what you mean. Haha that seems almost like CL 1B,B+K/CL 66A. Maybe I am overestimating a bit but that makes me remember one thing you said yourself some time ago. It was something about you watching Malek's and Scud's videos after you quit and that they made you realize how to play SC4 a lot better. That was about a year ago I think. Sorry for brining this up but that was the first thing that came to my mind. I'm not sure if I understood it correctly but that seemed like after 2 years of playing you weren't able to develop a playstyle that would allow you to dominate over other top players. Also last year Malek told me that your style was very different from his, and more like SC3 instead of the typical turtly, spacing and heavy SG.

This is true, and I'll elaborate. I think it's been long enough that this won't seem like an ego defense or excuse making. Part of my problem with SC4 (besides not liking the game's feel from day one) was that I moved away from home for school right before launch. My usual competition to flesh out a game were my brothers. Leaving them meant I had no way to play and learn the game, so I relied on my SC3 skills and practice mode to carry me. I did okay at tournaments, which made no one believe me when I told them I was awful at SC4. Then Malek exposed me at Evo. To me it was no surprise, because I knew he was motivated to play the game and had the ability to practice that I no longer did. I don't like being second best, but without the ability to train I knew I couldn't improve at the rate I wanted. So, I quit.

I continued watching tournaments for a while. As you know, I like to play a more "straight up" style, going for the KO, punishing unsafe moves, etc. I saw the way they hid behind SG pressure and moves that knocked back, and also how little they would be punished on block for doing unsafe moves (which also contributed to SG damage). At first, I thought they were doing stupid nonsense and getting away with it, but I couldn't ignore the consistent results. I came to the conclusion that sure, it would get them killed in SC3, but this is a new game. In SC4 it doesn't matter if you get AA'ed a couple times if it means their gauge will be blinking for the next two rounds.

I may not like the style, but I have no problem X-copying something that's been proven to work. I tried my "new" style at some random tournament I happened to be at, and even after not playing for a while I still won. Not only that, I won far easier than I usually did against the same players. I really didn't want to believe that the character I played for the last seven years devolved so far, but results don't lie.

That's how I came to my current stance on SC4 Ivy. Kudos to France for figuring the game out so quickly. It's unfortunate it took me so long to catch up, but we'll see how things go in SC5.