Nightmare's Movelist Changes and Move Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Engared
- Start date
Schneider-X
[11] Champion
yea, it stuns on NH and CH on tip now. You can see it in this post.
http://8wayrun.com/threads/nightmar...ve-speculation-thread.8578/page-7#post-313522
http://8wayrun.com/threads/nightmar...ve-speculation-thread.8578/page-7#post-313522
nice, great to hear that, it seems 1B is one of the faster stance transition moves, at 0:37, his 1(B) > NSS K beat leixia's 2A. but at 0:51, 3(B) > NSS K was interrupted by 2A. wonder if 1B still has that massive side step though.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
I think you mean "nonexistent" sidestep
Also, it's much too early to be sure if Nightmare is actually safer or not overall. Even if stance transitions are safer they still go to mostly unsafe options that require many layers to even get a throw mixup going (assuming the opponent isn't just eating NSS K like a birthday cake). I still haven't seen a safe mid poke from standing that can replace 11K (or 11K itself still being in), so that's a pretty big question mark right now for his overall safety concerns. I certainly hope he has something.
Engared
[10] Knight
66K could replace 11K in that role imo. Hopefully its -6 or something on block now instead of -13 (or w/e it is).
But whether he is safer overall is still speculation.
However, look at the pushback delivered by a lot of his moves now for example 1A in this video(at 1:25(
It is safe to say that your opponent will have to do his time in the lab in order to punish Nightmare accordingly and even then, not many characters have that many moves which reach that far in sufficient frames for significant damage.
1B in SC4 had a very small side step but its slight negativity made it perfect set-up for a GI trap and a step trap. If 1 (B) gives better positive frames now, i can think of the potential mix-ups from that move.
Engared
[10] Knight
You were generalising and making an absolute when it is far from an absolute when you said he is "definitely a meter based character". You called Cupui out on his speculation, so I am calling you out on your speculation. He was making a speculation based on that videos which Nightmare's WS B went unpunished on block. You are making your speculation based on the videos you have seen. However, the videos do not show everything, you should know this. We still lack sufficient information to make definite conclusions. As such, what you were talking about are still speculations and opinions, not definitive conclusions.
He still has other options to ringout (anything with ibA, iagA, WS AA, B+G, FC B+G etc) and still has other options to wallsplat without meter. Most characters now need meter to unlock their maximum damage output anyway so its no different than most of the SC5 cast.
I was talking about his option game by that point, if you really want me to list every single good move which he gets damage from without using meter, please tell me. Also if you want me to break up my replies into easy to read sections just for you, please tell me as well.
JG at this moment is extremely difficult to do and to line up the punish from JG in the heat of battle is very difficult to do. The brave edge from 33B is the follow up you saw, there should not be GS A from 33B BE. What will be interesting is if 33B BE can be activated on reaction, that would make it very scary for your opponent (logical speculation once again). And quick stepping etc will not be an option because if its uninterruptable, it should catch any and all follow-ups; and even if it doesn't, normal 33B6 options should beat out the quickstep and block defense.
So how can you say hes a meter based character then?
I've explained it many times previously (maybe not in layman's terms); his backstep now has a larger distance and quicker recovery frames. In SC4 Nightmare's backstep used to be piddly and had slow recovery frames which greatly affected his ability to space his opponents and cause whiffs.
Ironically, the 2 characters with excellent backsteps and the move set to take advantage of them were S tier (Ivy and Hilde).
If you go "how can you prove this?" however, its difficult cause you see it based on experience and you'll have to take my word on it.
I don't think its a huge nerf in the grand scheme of things because a lot of the rest of the cast has lost things which were vital to them (TAS B, Relic etc). At least Nightmare still has the option to ring out using meter. But how this will affect him is all speculation so its impossible to see if its a nerf or a buff, we do not know what properties Nightmare has on GS K BE yet. All i know is that its a cool looking move with potential.
And GS B has the potential to replace GS KK in the damage dealing sections of the above moves without using meter ( logical speculation once again. Though I have seen it in several videos, we do not know whether you can tech out of those moves yet).
KingAce
HERMITISM
You can call me out all you what but I am pretty damn sure on my analysis. There many characters in the game that can build meter easily with strong basics, and have little reliance on meter. Leixia, Astaroth, Sieg, the siblings, hilde...from what I have seen so far. Some characters build meter easily because they don't need to spend it on BE to do damage. They can save it for their CEs. While others like Tira, Viola, Zwei, have to constantly be in motion to build meter for maximum damage.
NM is faster, but doesn't have strong safe basics that build his meter. I am sorry but as far as wall carries and ringouts, GSB doesn't replace GSKK. Outside of his meter, his ringout game is average. Most characters have a B+G type throw...aga and NSS aB don't appear to have the same range either. It doesn't really matter to me if the other characters also rely on meter for ringsouts. NM is basically very similar to SC4's...so I can't justify him having any nerfs on his ringout or wall combo game.
Now you've mention 1A in 2 of your posts. If 1A turns out safe on block(at least with pushback) at that speed, that would be huge. But safety is also reliant on the opponents choice in punisher, that's why you can't speculate on it. NEC is in a day will see what information trickles down from there.
NM is faster, but doesn't have strong safe basics that build his meter. I am sorry but as far as wall carries and ringouts, GSB doesn't replace GSKK. Outside of his meter, his ringout game is average. Most characters have a B+G type throw...aga and NSS aB don't appear to have the same range either. It doesn't really matter to me if the other characters also rely on meter for ringsouts. NM is basically very similar to SC4's...so I can't justify him having any nerfs on his ringout or wall combo game.
Now you've mention 1A in 2 of your posts. If 1A turns out safe on block(at least with pushback) at that speed, that would be huge. But safety is also reliant on the opponents choice in punisher, that's why you can't speculate on it. NEC is in a day will see what information trickles down from there.
Engared
[10] Knight
Speculation once again. I am pretty damn sure Nightmare is better in SC5 than he was in SC4 due to the new nature of the game and the removal of some of his key weaknesses. But its all speculation at the moment.
You can be as sure as you want in your analysis in the end its all speculation till the game gets released and we have serious in training mode time. We do not know which version of the demo is being used at NEC as well. Kayane mentioned that the inputs have changed in the Italian demo which indicates a new version. From my dealings with the Namco reps, i have found out that they are given different versions of the game to demo from various points of the developmental process, so in the end all we see in the videos are from an incomplete game.
And stop shitting on Nightmare, please. As it has been established before you do not understand how Nightmare is able to do damage with his mid/throw mix-ups so please stop giving the newer players a bad impression by saying stuff like "NM is faster, but doesn't have strong safe basics that build his meter." or "NM is basically very similar to SC4's" or "they don't need to spend it on BE to do damage (unlike Nightmare)" when you have not played SC5 yet.
If you want to complain, go get the e-mail of the SC5 rep at NEC or go talk to Daishi on twitter. Or better yet, don't play Nightmare.
i think 1B is the same as SC4, w was pretty good on block, had good tracking to his right, slow move but i think it was a good move, crouches the opponent on block and thats the reason of NSS K interrupt ppl who try to 2A Nightmare after blocking his 1B, cuz while crouching 2A is not a high crusher like normal 2A. The only thing i complained in that case is that NSS K was to unsafe in SC4, also a high move and decent damage only on CH, i think it would be great if become safe in SC5, i heard Siegfried's 3B is safer now, and also check that they give Sieg back stance the same use of NM NSS of making ppl whiff the short range moves and punish with his new back stance BBB ( i think its the new command) w make pretty good damage.
i agree with Tiamat, i prefer to not argument radical things such if Nightmare is better or worst, guys time will tell, when we have the game and study it then we are gonna have solid arguments to debate.
lol i am pretty anxious to check that Nightmare and the new mechanics of the game,
peace
i agree with Tiamat, i prefer to not argument radical things such if Nightmare is better or worst, guys time will tell, when we have the game and study it then we are gonna have solid arguments to debate.
lol i am pretty anxious to check that Nightmare and the new mechanics of the game,
peace
Engared
[10] Knight
QFT.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
Engared: yeah 66K might be able to replace it if they made it safer. same goes for 3K (give it + on hit at least jeez) cause while technically safe, it was enough neg frames that it limited your options a lot. I do like the new 3B tip hit stun though, have a feeling that will turn out to be one of the more beneficial buffs of the ones we've seen.
as for 1(B), I've never been a fan of it but it had uses in SC4. against slower characters NSS A+B could beat common responses (6K for asta, WR B for kilik, etc) and if you got them to turtle up it was quick enough recovery you could do 1B (no NSS) > throw. maybe with the buff this kinda thing will be more widely applicable
as for 1(B), I've never been a fan of it but it had uses in SC4. against slower characters NSS A+B could beat common responses (6K for asta, WR B for kilik, etc) and if you got them to turtle up it was quick enough recovery you could do 1B (no NSS) > throw. maybe with the buff this kinda thing will be more widely applicable
microgamer
[10] Knight
It probably is a premature celebration, but if we were to take someone's word for how SCIV is as of now, it'd be Kayane's. Part of it might be the language barrier as well-- you're reading through the just slightly awkward english and then you see at the end the phrase "... so Nightmare is safer!" and then you want to tell the world.
In regards to Sieg, from what I've seen 3(B) to his base stance auto-GIs AA's, which I'm pretty sure didn't exist in SCIV (correct me if I'm wrong).
I really hope that Nightmare will have awesome tech traps from regular 3B. Especially since a regular 3B looks even more unsafe now, because it would be a good trade off between 3B and 3(B). 3B will have the tech trap options but will be horribly unsafe, and 3(B) won't have the killer tech trap options but will have NSS to combo or to attempt to avoid punishment.
In regards to Sieg, from what I've seen 3(B) to his base stance auto-GIs AA's, which I'm pretty sure didn't exist in SCIV (correct me if I'm wrong).
I really hope that Nightmare will have awesome tech traps from regular 3B. Especially since a regular 3B looks even more unsafe now, because it would be a good trade off between 3B and 3(B). 3B will have the tech trap options but will be horribly unsafe, and 3(B) won't have the killer tech trap options but will have NSS to combo or to attempt to avoid punishment.
Engared
[10] Knight
3 (B) NSS K traded with Lexia's 2A or FC A in the latest video so fingers crossed its actually a frametrap.
microgamer
[10] Knight
from the NEC stream,
- the 2B+K BE is a SM so it can be blocked standing or crouching, but the quake stun is low (quoted from Utoh). If you're hit by the quake stun you get a free 3B.
- 3AA looks like it pushes back a lot more on block stun.
- possibly free 3B from a GI?
- the 2B+K BE is a SM so it can be blocked standing or crouching, but the quake stun is low (quoted from Utoh). If you're hit by the quake stun you get a free 3B.
- 3AA looks like it pushes back a lot more on block stun.
- possibly free 3B from a GI?
KingAce
HERMITISM
Well I got what I wanted from Daishi...a faster safer 1A.
Engared
[10] Knight
I want to see if post 2A+B you get 2B+K must block....
That 1A will be very useful.
KingAce
HERMITISM
Okay a lot of really useful information from NEC.
3A recovers very fast...Now you a can actually do some tricky stuff with 3AA mixups.
BE 2B+K ground shake gives enough stun for 3B to land. At close range it gives advantage on block.
A lot of other useful information in the vids for review, can't wait for tomorrow.
3A recovers very fast...Now you a can actually do some tricky stuff with 3AA mixups.
BE 2B+K ground shake gives enough stun for 3B to land. At close range it gives advantage on block.
A lot of other useful information in the vids for review, can't wait for tomorrow.
Engared
[10] Knight
I think 3 (B) tip is a frame/whiff trap against many characters because the range is very deceptive and Nightmare's hit box is in such a way that 2As whiff. Neat...
KingAce
HERMITISM
Daishi vs IceColdEdge
I couldn't tell if 22B was unsafe or not, first time Ice uses WRA to punish it. Second time Daishi did something so it was a counter hit. Third time Daishi did 22B and Ice tried to punish with WRA, he ate the auto gi CE to the face.
If you had some GSA auto gi setups/baits in SC4, you will love NM's CE. Daishi also set it up after 66A on block.
I couldn't tell if 22B was unsafe or not, first time Ice uses WRA to punish it. Second time Daishi did something so it was a counter hit. Third time Daishi did 22B and Ice tried to punish with WRA, he ate the auto gi CE to the face.
If you had some GSA auto gi setups/baits in SC4, you will love NM's CE. Daishi also set it up after 66A on block.
Azure
[09] Warrior
So after all the gameplay videos I'm assuming Nightmare does not have 236KK anymore, it just looks like 236 K into the brave edge.