babalook
[10] Knight
sieg's 3B is probably the best 3B in the game right now lets be serious it does great damage and isn't punishable like a normal 3B
[ARCHIVE] Siegfried Pre-Release Discussion
- Thread starter Windstar
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Signia
[13] Hero
I think we've reached an understanding, Heaton, that's pretty much how I feel about the move and SCV Siegfried as a whole. I didn't even think the move or character was broken after playing the game, I was really just describing how easy it was to win at SCR. I do think it'll be harder once people figure out what to do.
Your loss Synraii, I will be keeping a pocket Siegfried in SCV and sharing my findings.
I'm sorry if anyone felt disrespected by that statement, I didn't think people would get so offended about describing SCV Siegfried... there are currently no SCV Siegfried players... game isn't even out, calm down people
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- #103
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
Another thing to realize about his 3(B) - it's not punishable normally, no. However, if you do manage to beat his mixup and punish him, you're going to punish him and get CH properties for it, with CH meaning extra damage and different properties in YOUR favor. So yes, the risk/reward is still skewed in Siegfried's favor, but the opponent's reward is still increased a bit to compensate for him.
It's similar to poker - Siegfried is "raising" by using 3(B) and having it blocked, but now the reward for winning the new mix-up (the "raise") is much bigger. Whether you "fold" (hold G and take the guard damage), or "call" (attempt to beat out his mixup) is up to you, and it will take careful consideration of the situation to be able to correctly decide which is the better option at the time.
Of course, Siegfried can do a few things to negate this new reward - doing no input makes your punish a NH, as does attempting to cancel the stance - but in this case he forfeits his reward entirely; in this scenario the Siegfried has folded, but you don't get the raised pot. So think of Siegfried as a bastardized version of poker where one of the players didn't explain the rules to the other guy well enough or something.
That's just how fighting games are pre-launch. I mean, fuck, no one even knew Hilde was better than mid-tier until a good ways into SCIV's life. Early assessments are fun and can create some good hype, but I don't think that they necessarily give an accurate view of a character as a whole. Critical Edge moves are a great example of this, with Siegfried's and Viola's being two that haven't really had their full potential shown yet. We just don't know, and won't know until we can sit down and try different shit for five hours straight.
This is why a lot of us take problem with using words like "broken", "overpowered", or "brain-dead" to describe a character, especially this early in a build. It implies things that absolutely cannot be confirmed without extensive testing, and yet people call for nerfs or bans off of stuff like that. Using words with that connotation permeates a stereotype about a character that we have no way of confirming or disconfirming without many, many hours of playtesting and tournaments.
Signia
[13] Hero
So it's impossible to provide any meaningful feedback to the devs? If they actually showed us something broken in the demo, we'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt because we can't do any testing?
Though that really was just a description of how I felt playing the character. It was just an opinion all along -- an impression
Lasercakes
[12] Conqueror
- Actually Soph TAS B is -11 at tip. Yoshi, X, Amy punishable. Try it out.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
Heaton for what it's worth, the only thing I see wrong with 3(B) as it stands now is it needs a slight damage and slight guard damage nerf to offset it's multi-situational usage. That is just an incomplete opinion; but it comes from alot of extrapolation I'm not going to write into 3 pages here. You know how I think, so take that as you will.
According to pantocrator, on whiff its utterly disasterous, so I think if anything, 3B will prove to be more of a buff regarding Sieg's step-kill game in the long run, what with there being a tool you really want to dodge, it opens up his primarily high step kill game as much more generally viable in mid-range mixup for CH fishing. Kind of like how Asta's throw game is soo much more dangerous because of bullrush - you don't want to eat it so you get steamrolled by throws instead, if that makes sense.
3B's damage is kinda high, but it doesn't compare to TAS B and its got a weakness, its just less risk, more reward - people don't like that in characters they deem as weak I guess... =/
3B's damage is kinda high, but it doesn't compare to TAS B and its got a weakness, its just less risk, more reward - people don't like that in characters they deem as weak I guess... =/
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- #108
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
It's not impossible, but it doesn't give the entire picture, and you need to look at the entire picture of a character before deciding if the move breaks the character or not.
To steal Hates' example, Tekken 4 Jin Kazama's JF Lazer Scraper would not break a character all on it's own if the rest of Jin's moveset and playstyle had weaknesses that made JFLS a key part of his game that took careful consideration to use. But that ended up not being the case - Jin had no inherent "weakness", and design intent dictated that he should have no great strengths, either, but JFLS ended up being incredibly powerful. The point of that anecdote - one move can indeed break a character, especially when that move is amazing and a character's other weaknesses are either negligible or non-existent.
However, Tekken 4 Jin hadn't had precedent - his style was totally new in that game, and no one new about JFLS pre-launch. With Siegfried and 3(B), we already know much of how Siegfried is supposed to be "played", and also how to get around him - in particular, how to get around SCH. Just ask Slayer; he's complained many times about SCH's inherent weaknesses, one of which was expanded upon with the removal of SCH A+B. The people who have been playing Siegfried for awhile understand these weaknesses, and know that it will take much more than just 3(B) to break him.
And we kind of have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because what's "broken" now can easily become a bad move in a few months' time after testing is done. I sincerely doubt what's going to work for the first tournament is what's also going to work for the final tournament, save for a character's BnB moves.
You say this, but have said that:
If that's an opinion, I don't think anyone but you could tell. It isn't safe, it just give advantage - advantage changes meaning when it's advantage going into a stance. And I've already established numerous ways it couldn't be brain dead. If you're going to state opinion on a message board, peppering your posts with "I think" or "I feel" or "In my reasoned opinion" certainly wouldn't help to distinguish fact from opinion. Stating stuff as fact, as you seem to have done there, is what warrants long ass essays from Siegfried players.
Foiled again by the Wiki. But they're weak punishes at best - better than nothing, sure, but I'm more scared of those character's other options than their 10f punishing ability.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
Stop using the word "barge" to describe a punish. This isn't Tekken Zaibatsu. Punishment frames are not standardized, so "barge" has no inherent meaning.
Lasercakes
[12] Conqueror
Yeah. I'm not trying to weigh in on any argument here. Just thought I'd throw out that bit of trivia since not very many people know about it, not even most Sophie players I think.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
well to be fair, for one it has always been a good launcher in the past, and well out of a game with so many diverse styles and characters, somebody has to have the best of something, otherwise we'd all be playing the same character. not to mention siegfried is also lacking in many other areas. not to mention technically sieg 3B isnt a normal launcher either.
its a launcher that leads into a stance with a set amount of actions that can be prevented by a set amount of reactions, which are applied in such a way that makes things very similar to a game of rock paper scissors: you dont know what your opponent will do, but you know that what they will do wont be completely random each time either. you have the ability to limit the possibilities down to a certain number of options, and to further limit it by closely judging your opponents behavior. after such you react. while your reaction will not ever be foolproof or guaranteed, you can increase your chances of success by doing so. its like if i go rock, and i have a behavioral trend of picking scissors after every time that i pick rock because i suspect you will pick paper. now if you see this trend, you have the option of changing what you choose to do at any time to counteract my actions, maybe u'll pick scissors and beat out my paper, but at the same time i could do the same to you, by guessing that this time you will pick scissors, so in response i pick rock again. and well at the same time you could guess that i was going to do that and just pick paper anyways. hence why nothing is ever certain. this is essentially what reverse mixup is all about.
what this circles us back to is how 3B should be punishable because it is a launcher, and why it isnt because it leads into stance, then why it should be punishable because 3B is a launcher. really, its this kind of discretion that IMO should be left to developers, since they designed the move, and they know if it was intended to work that way or not, or whether or not they should accept the way it is used. if the move is that much of a problem balance wise, they can always patch it later on once we've seen solid proof that the move itself is too strong. and again if we nerfed every character simply because they had a good move, we'd might as well all just play the same character. i dont know about the rest of the community, but that is something that I, as an individual player, do not support.
Jink
[10] Knight
lol, so much blah blah. 3B is for kids. It has always been like that & now in SC5 is about that lol. 3B has always been balanced because is an easy (newb, meaning done at any range) way to do or receive damage limited to what SCH'K can or cant interrupt.
Unfortunately for me, most Sig players do or have or generates the habit of 3Bing from half way or even from the beginning of a match. IMO leaving their win at the hands of their rival's bad odds or missed reactions. Making boring matches that I've already seen since SC2's DTN's appearance.
To me, fact is: Most 3B Sigs are still doing basic frame shit & have not even ponder of doing range play, which is what Sig is about. Range > Frames in SC games.
SC5 new 3B makes Sig look like Paul Phoenix; simple character. I've been playing SC2 again recently, & wow what a beast NM/Sig is in that game. Then got simpler in SC3, & simpler in SC4 & now seems more simpler in SC5 heheh. The "casual conform effect" I'll call it. But its good at the same time because there will be more players to play.
Most of all (like I said before) we don't know how the new JG deals vs the new 3B.
Unfortunately for me, most Sig players do or have or generates the habit of 3Bing from half way or even from the beginning of a match. IMO leaving their win at the hands of their rival's bad odds or missed reactions. Making boring matches that I've already seen since SC2's DTN's appearance.
To me, fact is: Most 3B Sigs are still doing basic frame shit & have not even ponder of doing range play, which is what Sig is about. Range > Frames in SC games.
SC5 new 3B makes Sig look like Paul Phoenix; simple character. I've been playing SC2 again recently, & wow what a beast NM/Sig is in that game. Then got simpler in SC3, & simpler in SC4 & now seems more simpler in SC5 heheh. The "casual conform effect" I'll call it. But its good at the same time because there will be more players to play.
Most of all (like I said before) we don't know how the new JG deals vs the new 3B.
Solf
[10] Knight
A bit disappointed with the hair. Seems exactly the same as his 1P's.
IceColdEdge
Retired Goon
Sieg's 2p is the worst :-(... Could have been good (casual dress is a good idea) but pink pants + thigh high boots is just terrible to me... 1p (or CAS) it is. Nightmare's 2p on the other hand is greatness.
Agreed... Add to that SCH B, B4, etc. etc.... Kinda scary when I think about it.
- I.C.E.
Agreed... Add to that SCH B, B4, etc. etc.... Kinda scary when I think about it.
- I.C.E.
Jian
Like Gin and Tonic
While the Fabio concept looked good on paper, it doesn't seem to translate well into 3D =(
Signia
[13] Hero
To get an idea of how JGs will impact the game, consider reaction-GIs and how often they're done.
JGs are even harder to do than reaction-GIs(smaller window)
JGs also are not safe to attempt now that you have to release G... you'll get hit for doing it early or late. No whiff animation though, but that's not really relevant here since you should already know it's coming (reaction JG).
But there may be some crazy option selects due there being no whiff animation. Though, I doubt anyone would master something so tricky. Maybe Belial?
Still, the developers seem to be good at it. I guess we'll see :/
Maybe the fact that you only have to press G, instead of having a direction too, makes a big difference
Wid0maker
[10] Knight
Is it me or did Sieg's SBH B side step Cerv's 3B at 0:44? I don't recall it having that ability in SC4...then again, I don't think anyone tried to 3B me out of SBH B before.
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