Tier Discussion

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Personally, I always thought Leixia was upper mid before the patch. Speed, safety, great frames, best evades in the game, ridiculous guard burst. I think she only lacked NH damage.

I admit I haven't touched her in a while, but I think the only serious nerf was NH 22_88K KND removal.
 
Azazel said:
Your head indeed
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What?

Ring said:
Personally, I always thought Leixia was upper mid before the patch. Speed, safety, great frames, best evades in the game, ridiculous guard burst. I think she only lacked NH damage.

I admit I haven't touched her in a while, but I think the only serious nerf was NH 22_88K KND removal.
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Well I also think that she was either a bad Upper Mid or good Mid Tier pre-patch, but still definitely not High/Top.

You're pretty much right, but you forgot to mention that Leixia doesn't have a mixup (in terms of low-mid mixup) which is even worse with 22K nerf. It wouldn't have been a problem to compensate for that if she hadn't been nerfed, but now she's unsafer, weaker in terms of damage, evades worse, guard burst worse. And you feel the WS B BE nerf and the damage nerf on FC 3B as well.

Leixia's not crap, that's not what I'm talking about, but she is NOT a good character. And not even a "middle-good" character.
 
I see a lot of Astaroth being listed as high and was wondering why he keeps getting placed there. I play him quite a bit, and don't see him being as good as some of the other characters listed due to:

-Subpar punishment options (addressed a bit with the patch and the improvement to 4B): Skews a bit towards too many highs (66B, 6AA, K, Throws), Very vertical (I'm seeing the main horizontal options as 6AA and throws. 6AA is short range on first hit, throws are breakable), and slow (granted a given because it's Astaroth)
-Way too reliant on throw mind games to get big damage

I'm not a high level player, so I'm hoping that some of the high level players that have him in the high tiers can show the flaws in my reasoning.
 
Here is my attempt at a tier list: (not really sure how to place Soul of Devil Jin)

Top: Alpha Pat, Omega, Algol
High: Viola, Cervantes, Patroklos, Pyrrha, Nightmare, Natsu, Astaroth, Mitsurugi
Mid: Ezio, Ivy, Hilde, Xiba, Voldo, Yoshimitsu, Aeon, Leixia, Maxi, Tira, Dampierre
Low: Z.W.E.I, Raphael, Siegfried

A few notes:
- Cervy is not top tier because of his unsafety. A competent player that knows how to fight Cervantes will destroy him (Just Guards, Punish, Whiff Punish). His key tools are all unsafe, and a competent player can bait out his iGDR and heavily punish him for it.

- Viola requires meter to do damage, and if read correctly, she can get zoned by Algol or Nightmare.

- Algol is top-tier material simply because of his insane damage output (that does not require Counter Hit or a wall). He can hit you for 120+ damage off a whiff punish/GI/Guard Burst, without the use of his full CE. not to mention an i16, 70 damage combo starter that can be a Clean Hit (quite possibly clean hit A) from full crouch! He can control the arena like no other character in the game with the bubble zoning and his 4B+K that catches ANY RETREATING MOTION/ATTACK (like most character's 1A, back step, or back side-step). The reason people don't place him at the top is simply because no one has fully utilized all of his tools and his potential.

- Astaroth is simply high tier only because he can kill you with 50% meter and could go for a tech trap as he is killing you. Also the fact that if you can guess correctly with his grabs, you will own the opponent in close range (with few exceptions), and can zone the opponent until he/she is frustrated and makes a mistake, costing them the match.
 
I really think Siegfried is not as bad as most people think. Lower to middle mid-tier, IMO.

Edit: I've been messing around with Siegfried more, and after getting bodied by a really good Pyrrha, I was on a bit of a win streak. beating Ivys, Nightmares, Devil Jins, and Astaroths. My win streak came to an end when I got bodied by Natsu, 3 to nothing. Not getting discouraged, I continued and went on to have 5 good rounds with another Natsu but eventually lost in a close fight. Its funny, when I win as Siegfried I feel like I accomplished something despite his supposed tier list status, and when I lose its usually close and I feel like I put up a good fight.
 
Algol will own in the future. It´s just that there is no player out there using his full potential right now. That will hopefully!? change in the future.
 
Maxou said:
Jag : Why don't you put Yoshi and Voldo high tier?
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Mmmh, good question. At the end of the day i think they just can´t compete with Asta, Ivy, Patro, Mitsu and Phyrra for example... But hey, game is still young and there might be other!? patches. So who knows.
 
Doing more Siegfried testing. His 3B is highly spammable and can destroy most characters. Natsu is still a bit of a problem, though.
 
MKHSpartan said:
This = wtf moment... learn how to play against Siegfried.
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I know, I know. And believe me I mix things up, but its amazing how fast that move comes out sometimes and how people lower their guard in attempts to counter it... And don't realize they can side step...
 
Oh yea when they try to counter they usually take SCH B in the face cracks me up but unfortunately when you face someone who know how Sieg works if they block 3B they will just quickstep and if they have a good tech crouch move from step it beats every option from Chief Hold which gets you screwed. However 3B is an amazing scrub pwner yes use it all day against them and flapjack em out for the laughs.
 
JAGTHEGEMINI said:
Mmmh, good question. At the end of the day i think they just can´t compete with Asta, Ivy, Patro, Mitsu and Phyrra for example... But hey, game is still young and there might be other!? patches. So who knows.
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Actually, they're VERY good characters.

Yoshi has the best low in the game and is kinda safe.
He has one of the best wake up game in the game (best?), very good antistep tools, good damage and good pokes. Add to this : a 1/2 life CE, suicide that deals 1/2 life, good RO tools and good wall combos... He can destroy life bar very fast.
This character goes completely under the radar. He's a VERY good character, some french guys (Ahriman for exemple even put in in top tier).

Voldo goes completely under the radar as well. Very good character, very strong zoning tools, good damage, very good wake up game and good punishing game.
 
Maxou said:
Yoshi has the best low in the game
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mitsuface.jpg
 
Belial said:
View attachment 15074
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You're wrong.
Yoshi HAS the best low in the game. iFC 3K is antistep, antibackdash, 40 dmg with RCC 3B combo + wake up choice (FC 1KKK for all rolls, 3B for side rolls/all rolls depending of character, 66A+B for backrolls, 8A+B~G can work too + iFC 3K mix up again at wake up...). You'll tell me 2K BE B gives Mitsu mix-up too but for iFC 3K there is no BE needed for this low and more range than 2K BE B / 2KB.

2nd best low is Mitsu's 2K BE B, then Cervy's 1AB and Alpha's 1AAA.

 
Has anyone actually attempted to make a match-up chart to cumulate in an actual tier list? By anyone, I mean a community, not some random list of 5-5 7-3 opinions with no real basis in fact.

Tier list debates are often full of off-the-cuff opinions based on some gut feeling of oh that character seems strong and that one weak. But this isn't really very helpful because you can't really debate this kind of thing or learn anything from it.

Doing a proper match-up chart will be extremely hard this early into the game, especially as we've only had one major (Cannes) a few weeks after release, and also because a serious patch just came out. But maybe we could start trying to actually look at match-ups objectively, rather than just making lists?

Alternatively, this thread can just continue as it is. Allow me to facilitate it's continued usefulness. Please copy and paste the below. Bear in mind that no-one will read your list but merely make one of their own. Etc etc

NAME:
BROKEN:
TOP:
MID:
LOW:
ROCK-BOTTOM:
 
Maxou said:
Actually, they're VERY good characters.

Yoshi has the best low in the game and is kinda safe.
He has one of the best wake up game in the game (best?), very good antistep tools, good damage and good pokes. Add to this : a 1/2 life CE, suicide that deals 1/2 life, good RO tools and good wall combos... He can destroy life bar very fast.
This character goes completely under the radar. He's a VERY good character, some french guys (Ahriman for exemple even put in in top tier).

Voldo goes completely under the radar as well. Very good character, very strong zoning tools, good damage, very good wake up game and good punishing game.
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Ahriman thinks SCV Yoshi is top? Ok... what does he think about SCV Voldo since Voldo was his main in SCIV afaik.
 
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