Tier Discussion

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Maxou said:
I prefer punish a move regularly with 1 BE than once for 1 CE.
But well, your loss then. This move is great.
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Let's do some math :
1 CE = 2 BE

2 6B BE = 100 dmg -> You must guard 2 -14 move.

For just 1 -13 move (A lot easier), with Patroklos and with the same amout of meter, you get 96 dmg (with RO).

Seriously, BE and CE are not standard punishment tool, and Voldo has not standard punishment tool.

Waste meter to make 50 dmg is not a big deal, I NEED meter to make 666B 66BE 666B combo and LF B BE combos, and it deals a lot more damage for the same amount of meter, seriously, how can you say that meter consumption is nothing here ?

I just don't understand how you can really think that.

All the character are not Alpha Patroklos, you know, people that play regular character NEED meter to make damages.
 
Force-Destruct said:
Here is my attempt at a tier list: (not really sure how to place Soul of Devil Jin)

Top: Alpha Pat, Omega, Algol
High: Viola, Cervantes, Patroklos, Pyrrha, Nightmare, Natsu, Astaroth, Mitsurugi
Mid: Ezio, Ivy, Hilde, Xiba, Voldo, Yoshimitsu, Aeon, Leixia, Maxi, Tira, Dampierre
Low: Z.W.E.I, Raphael, Siegfried
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I think this pretty close, but I don't think there's any one character that sits at the top of the pack. I do think there's a high tier and there's a few characters that sit there, but even the high tiers have some short comings. Alpha, for example is pretty linear.

At best, I think the divisions are basically, high tier and an assortment of mid tiered characters with various degrees of strength (upper mid, and lower mid). Characters like ZWEI, Leixia, Dampierre, Raphael, Aeon and Siegfried sit in the lower mid bracket. While characters like Ezio, Hilde, Yoshimitsu, Tira, Viola, Astaroth, Ivy, Voldo and Omega are upper mid. The rest are high tier; Cervantes, Maxi, Patroklos, Pyrrha, Nightmare, Natsu, Mitsurugi, Algol and Alpha.

We probably won't get a real sense of how the tiers fan out until we know the match-ups better. Though I fear, that a lot of characters who players think are fairly strong or sit in the middle to upper tiers aren't as impressive as people think they are when 2A/2K/1K come into play defeating most of their options.
 
Windstar said:
At best, I think the divisions are basically, high tier and an assortment of mid tiered characters with various degrees of strength (upper mid, and lower mid).
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Probably going to have to agree with that statement. Tired of hearing "Siegfried/ZWEI/Raph are low tier" Sieg and ZWEI just made appearances at the world championship, now granted ZWEI probably got as far as he did based on everyone else's general character ignorance, they clearly aren't free wins.

I still believe Raph and ZWEI could still use some light buffing, but overall I don't feel like anyone is absolutely worthless to the point to place them as "low-tier".

If anything rankings should be done as:

Top-Tier
Upper Mid
Mid
Lower Mid

Even then you'll probably see a lot of convergence to the point you can probably simplify to:

Good
Needs some light buffs

Even Ezio could probably take home a tournament with the right player behind the wheel.
 
Mandy said:
Even Ezio could probably take home a tournament with the right player behind the wheel.
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Thing is if that's the case that is the player winning it not the character tier lists are assuming both people are at an equal skill level and know how to play and you are comparing the characters strengths and weaknesses to one another. For example Cervantes has many points in his favour speed, damage, punishment etc while Raph has so many flaws it is ridiculous, I like the character but he is so bad.... lack of damage, no good step kills, good moves in general he relies on lack of character knowledge and prep/se set-ups and in a match with two players of equal skill level Cervy should massacre Raph unfortunately.
 
I completely agree with the interview.

First of all Tiers measure how strong the character is TECHNICALLY. The depend heavily on frame data and such.

That's why, it's probably fair to say that Alpha is the strongest character in the game.

But a character like Nightmare, who is, tier-wise, average or slightly above average is in no way doomed when confronted even with a competent Alpha player. Because, frames or no frames, make a couple of guesses wrong and you can end up eating dust, or out of the ring, to sum it up, losing the match.

I think this is one of the great aspects of SCV. No character is broken, no character is a pushover (maybe Dampierre is the only character that truly requires a player above the others to be good in a tornament), and most importantly high tier characters do not have such a strong advantage over mid tier characters.
 
Saw these two tier lists over at GameFAQS:

A- CERVANTES - ALPHA PAT - PYRRHA - VOLDO - NIGHTMARE - PATROKLOS -
SIEGFRIED
B- LEXIA - NATSU - RAPHAEL - VIOLA - XIBA - MITSU - OMEGA - YOSHIMITSU - EZIO
C- HILDE - TIRA - ASTAROTH - MAXI - ZWEI - AEON - IVY
D- DAMPIERRE

&

S: Alpha Pat, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Pyrrha Omega, Viola
A: Algol, Astaroth, Pyrrha, Ivy, Nightmare, Yoshimitsu, Patroklos
B: Voldo, Siegfried, Leixia, Natsu, Maxi, Hilde(Nobody is playing her, so I don't know what she can REALLY do yet. She has a ton of potential, though), Xiba
C: Ezio, Aeon, Tira, Zwei, Raphael, Dampierre

Some interesting stuff.

Source: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/630214-soulcalibur-v/62540581
 
PastaManROFL said:
S: Alpha Pat, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Pyrrha Omega, Viola
A: Algol, Astaroth, Pyrrha, Ivy, Nightmare, Yoshimitsu, Patroklos
B: Voldo, Siegfried, Leixia, Natsu, Maxi, Hilde(Nobody is playing her, so I don't know what she can REALLY do yet. She has a ton of potential, though), Xiba
C: Ezio, Aeon, Tira, Zwei, Raphael, Dampierre

Some interesting stuff.

Source: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/630214-soulcalibur-v/62540581
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That second tier list is pretty spot on imo. I don't think I'd change a single placement. At most, maybe move Omega to A tier with her twin sis. Question, is Omega's 66B and DNS B the main reasons people place her higher than regular Pyrrha? Cause I feel Pyrrha has better tools overall.
 
Don't think tiers matter as much in this game. Though I think aPat, Omega, and Mits are definitely the best characters in the game right now, a lot of characters have the tools to make good on good reads and excel at certain aspects of their game to make up for bad matchups. Lots of the Chicago players tell me Raph is bad but I think he has some amazing pokes 9then again, they argue his damage output can't keep up with others'). I've never thought Sieg was as bad people make him out to be, just that lot of SC players try to play every character the same way instead of playing the character to his/her strengths and their own, and this is why I don't think we'll see a decent player of certain characters unless someone who loves that character and the game picks him/her up.

-Break for aesthetics-

When I see a player do well with a character, playing in a way that few can ever emulate, showing a level of knowledge that goes beyond frames and matchups, I feel like that player can be an icon for that character and can be really studied as far as character potential. Honestly, I don't think this has been displayed in sc5 yet. There are quite a few players who have the potential to
do that with certain characters in this game, but still...by design, this game is cut throat and lots of good players have chosen to take the easy way out because of these tournaments and money.

Yeah, I know it's a rather romantic view of the game but that's how I feel. Wait a while and then we'll get a better sense of things.
 
Good point. I think in general that Omega showed what you're talking about with Sieg to a degree so far, but when things start to get really serious some players will be able to achieve much more with their character probably. I can see Astaroth's status raise quite a bit when the time comes for instance..

Anyway this is not a game with broken characters and impossible matchups. Much of the discussion about tiers IMO comes from the simple fact that most character are pretty balanced, so there's quite a crowded mid tier.
 
PastaManROFL said:
Saw these two tier lists over at GameFAQS:

S: Alpha Pat, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Pyrrha Omega, Viola
A: Algol, Astaroth, Pyrrha, Ivy, Nightmare, Yoshimitsu, Patroklos
B: Voldo, Siegfried, Leixia, Natsu, Maxi, Hilde(Nobody is playing her, so I don't know what she can REALLY do yet. She has a ton of potential, though), Xiba
C: Ezio, Aeon, Tira, Zwei, Raphael, Dampierre

Some interesting stuff.

Source: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/630214-soulcalibur-v/62540581
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This is my tier list, and I just want to say that outside of the top tier, I have no real clue about any of the other tiers. It's also not in any order within the tiers (e.g. Natsu's not necessarily better than Maxi).
 
Today i lost to someone using patroklos this must mean his character is better than mine because i cant imagine losing based on my skills alone its because my character sucks and i play perfectly....... voldo on the other hand must be bottom tier because our local voldo expert never beat me....so that must mean voldo sucks.

I think aeon is ok because this guy whos A1 ranking was going even with me so must mean the match up is even...

Finally i think alpha is the best character although i havent played against him but everyone i saying.... and hes got a lot of jf...despite he never won a major i think all these other online experts says so it must be true.

Please listen to me because i play with experts and i know how to do combos thats nore than 100 damage...


-LAU
 
LAU said:
Today i lost to someone using patroklos this musy mean his character is better than mine because i cant imagine losing based on my skills alone its because my character sucks and i play perfectly....... voldo on the other hand must be bottom tier because our local voldo expert never beat me....so that must mean voldo sucks.

I think aeon is ok because this guy whos A1 ranking was going even with me so must mean the match up is even...

Finally i think alpha is the best character although i havent played against him but everyone i saying.... and hes got a lot of jf...despite he never won a major i think all these other online experts says so it must be true.

Please listen to me because i play with experts and i know how to do combos thats nore than 100 damage...


-LAU
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Sounds legit.
 
Omega and Toilet proved to the world that tiers do not have the relevance they are supposed to have for SC, as long as you know your character and who you're facing.

Numbers make up for good reference, but in the end, it all boils down to the mindgames i.e. outsmarting and besting your opponent. Presenting him with different offensive and defensive situations. Pressuring him. Punishing him for turtling. The CF system in SC4 and the new changes in SC5 reflect that. This is a 3D fighting game. There are so many variables and the 8WR system adds so much depth to everything, that limiting oneself to a bunch of numbers and have them decide for your brain in a real match end up being detrimental, imo.

However, that doesn't mean frame data is to be frowned upon. That would be a very stupid mistake. It's perfectly possible to combine them both and play should be based on instinct and mindgames, but also knowing at the same time which moves apply to which situation and to which matchup.
 
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