Tier Discussion

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Kalas said:
I think what makes the Top Tiers (characters like Mitsu, Alpha, Viola, Omega, Algol) so strong are not the tools they have, but more the damage they deal very easily. There are some moves where I think Namco rolled the dice to determine the damage because it seems so absurd and out of order sometimes.
I don't wanna go too much into detail now, but if there's ever gonna be another patch, I will be hoping for a damage adjustment for some characters.
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Mitsu-
A+B 69 damage,
22A+B a 52 damage mid, i21 stepstep / 8wayrun move, combo to 3B for
76 damage... break guard in 8? its -2 on block da fck? and it can be G cancel.

^ that shit is dumb
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Some of the top characters have just odd move properties that further their potential annoyance. My biggest pet peeves is verticals that heavily track or have huge hit boxes.

I would really like to see the generous hitboxes tweaked of many of the games B attacks. Getting hit while the opponent is sailing off in the opposite directions that I've stepped is foolish. Too many to even go into specifics about. Then you have moves like Yoshi's 66A+B which will whiff point blank very frequently during the target combo of ch MCF, 66B, 66A+B which is in the game's move list as a staple...

It's annoying too cause it seems only the more played cast members get any real tweaks or the new characters they are trying to push hard. No fiddling is better than the nerfs some people got so as a Yoshi player I am happy but seeing how Pat got his collision issues fixed it'd be nice to see that kind of stuff cleaned up across the board.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
Alpha could do with a damage reduction. Also if he misses JFT, JFT combo, it would be nice if he were heavily punishable as a result. Atm if you tech, he still escapes serious punishment.
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Yo sorry I made a mistake here, you can punish it severely if you tech forwards. I hadn't considered teching forwards against this combo before, but it makes it launch punishable if the second JF is failed.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
Yo sorry I made a mistake here, you can punish it severely if you tech forwards. I hadn't considered teching forwards against this combo before, but it makes it launch punishable if the second JF is failed.
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Problem is if you tech forward, JFT into JFT is easy to do. JFT into JFT if you tech left is hard to do.
 
Noregrets said:
I don't see the resemblance between aPat's 33B and other characters 66B. aPat's 33B can be performed after a quick step, making it more effective for whiff punishes than those other moves.
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lolwut? You know 66B can be performed from a quickstep too, right?

2236B = 66B.

Tadaa. Your argument holds zero validity.

Age_of_Truth said:
Yo sorry I made a mistake here, you can punish it severely if you tech forwards. I hadn't considered teching forwards against this combo before, but it makes it launch punishable if the second JF is failed.
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Told you so :P. That's a pretty heavy punish for dropping what I think everyone would admit is one of the hardest "BnB"s in the game.
 
Ugh, I've caved in and decided to make my own personal tier list. Like all the other tier lists in this thread, it's purely my opinion.
High Tier: α Patroklos, Cervantes, Mitsurugi
High Mid: Viola*, Algol, Pyrrha Ω, Pyrrha, Patroklos*, Yoshimitsu
True Mid: Xiba, Maxi, Natsu, Astaroth*, Nightmare, Voldo, Ivy, Leixia, Tira
Low Mid: Hilde, Siegfried, Ezio, Aeon*
Low Tier: Dampierre, Z.W.E.I., Raphael

*Stage dependent characters. Ringouts and/or walls can considerably change their conjectured tiers.

Opinions on what you think should be changed are welcome. Tier lists are pointless anyways because it's possible to win with any character.
 
Slade said:
Ugh, I've caved in and decided to make my own personal tier list. Like all the other tier lists in this thread, it's purely my opinion.
High Tier: α Patroklos, Cervantes, Mitsurugi
High Mid: Viola, Algol, Pyrrha Ω, Pyrrha, Patroklos, Yoshimitsu
True Mid: Xiba, Maxi, Natsu, Astaroth, Nightmare, Voldo, Ivy, Leixia, Tira
Low Mid: Hilde, Siegfried, Ezio, Aeon
Low Tier: Dampierre, Z.W.E.I., Raphael

Opinions on what you think should be changed are welcome. Tier lists are pointless anyways because it's possible to win with any character.
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Glad to see yoshi up there :D
 
JustinAkatsuki said:
Glad to see yoshi up there :D
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Since tier lists don't assume execution as a factor, Yoshimitsu would probably be god tier if it weren't for the random results of 4A/1A series JFs, especially considering he can get them off a semi-safe 3B. The ringout range and damage potential is crazy good. He's also got amazing mindgame potential and some excellent evasive moves, not to mention iMCF frame traps. His CE is positively terrifying, too. Unfortunately he seems rather weak to backstep, but I definitely believe he's a top 10 character.
 
My idea of "safe" is somewhat biased, as an Alpha player, but Yoshi is my second most played, and I don't think of 3B as "semi safe" but it depends on the match-up. It's -14 right? That's stab punishable, or JFTx2 (~70 dmg) or 44B+K BE (100+ dmg) from Alpha.

I think Yoshi lacks viable spacing tools. He has a very hard time maintaining his effective range, imo. He's good, but I'd rank Ivy, NM, and Natsu all above him, easily. I realize this is just your own subjective tier list. I just thought I'd state why I don't see him up there. A big part of it comes down to having really bad frames on block for some of his most important tools.
 
While you are all wasting time on imaginary Tier Lists, Keev is practicing.
So am I.
Stop worrying about what characters are the strongest and learn how to turn the ones you like best INTO the strongest.
'Nuff said.
 
b4k4 said:
My idea of "safe" is somewhat biased, as an Alpha player, but Yoshi is my second most played, and I don't think of 3B as "semi safe" but it depends on the match-up. It's -14 right? That's stab punishable, or JFTx2 (~70 dmg) or 44B+K BE (100+ dmg) from Alpha.

I think Yoshi lacks viable spacing tools. He has a very hard time maintaining his effective range, imo. He's good, but I'd rank Ivy, NM, and Natsu all above him, easily. I realize this is just your own subjective tier list. I just thought I'd state why I don't see him up there. A big part of it comes down to having really bad frames on block for some of his most important tools.
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There's reason why the Pyrrhas and Alpha Pat are higher than Yoshi in my list, lol. Compared to most 3Bs, which are -16 or worse on block and don't even give a third of the damage, Yoshimitsu's is exception. Against most characters, 3B is an AA punish at most. Yoshimitsu does rely heavily on getting walled or ringout stages, though. Like I said, his biggest vulnerability is backstep.
 
b4k4 said:
My idea of "safe" is somewhat biased, as an Alpha player, but Yoshi is my second most played, and I don't think of 3B as "semi safe" but it depends on the match-up. It's -14 right? That's stab punishable, or JFTx2 (~70 dmg) or 44B+K BE (100+ dmg) from Alpha.
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And from Siegfried he gets K... and thats it for like 13 damage pretty safe versus him bro.
 
b4k4 said:
lolwut? You know 66B can be performed from a quickstep too, right?

2236B = 66B.

Tadaa. Your argument holds zero validity.
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Wrong. Only characters who do not have an attack/stance mapped to 236 will switch to whatever attack/stance is mapped to 66.

That means that Nightmare cannot do 66B from a quickstep. Because 236 is mapped to grim stride. So if you do 2236b, you will step~grim stride~whatever you call that B move. The same principal is established with Omega Pyrrha, Patroklos, Raphael (to a lesser extent), Pyrrha. Mitsurugi, Alpha Patroklos, and Siegfried (to a lesser extent). There could be more, but I did not test everyone.

The characters' 66B that you called for a nerf in your previous post: Pat, O Pyrrha, and Nightmare cannot do what aPat does.

Your argument holds zero validity.

Tadaa. See? I'm a magician too :)
 
Noregrets said:
Wrong. Only characters who do not have an attack/stance mapped to 236 will switch to whatever attack/stance is mapped to 66.

That means that Nightmare cannot do 66B from a quickstep. Because 236 is mapped to grim stride. So if you do 2236b, you will step~grim stride~whatever you call that B move. The same principal is established with Omega Pyrrha, Patroklos, Raphael (to a lesser extent), Pyrrha. Mitsurugi, Alpha Patroklos, and Siegfried (to a lesser extent). There could be more, but I did not test everyone.

The characters' 66B that you called for a nerf in your previous post: Pat, O Pyrrha, and Nightmare cannot do what aPat does.

Your argument holds zero validity.

Tadaa. See? I'm a magician too :)
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8896B = 66B
Tadaa. am a Scientist.
get your damn illusions out of here.
 
If you really have to, you can 22147896B , not that difficult. at least if you claim to main the char you should be able to do it. I dont really get why you need 66B from ss when you can 33_99B
 
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