1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

Status
Not open for further replies.
standing mixup:
sieg > nightmare
oki mixup:
nightmare > sieg

IMO the characters play almost nothing alike, other than both of them needing to throw often.
 
The only character I can't place in the Tier-list yet is Taki.

She's such an advanced character in Soul Calibur IV, so it's hard to measure her potential IMO. Also, I'm all new with her.

They cut down her damage, but then her PO-game and mixups can mess anyone up. She can pull off some damaging combos, like PO 236B, WR K, 3bK PO, PORC, 1BA PO, PO B_K_A, but she has no "simple-hits-combo-to-death". Her A is i10 (heard i9 as well, but that info is wrong?), so she can keep advantage, punish well and pressure.

I feel that she really has to work hard to win, and it requires a lot of work to master her. Would say between mid- and top-tier, but can't specify where. What's your take?

Indeed they did cut down Taki's damage, also a lot of her bread and butter from previous games are out and some of her previous useful moves are also out, PO transitions that used to be there are no longer there, PO has no straight up fast low like it used to (no PO 236A does not count, though it is a decently useful move if you don't spam it), and she can no longer directly throw from PO without using PORC.

The damaging combo you post is good and should be something that every serious Taki player can pull off as bread and butter, but is definitely not easy to pull off in terms of execution or just plain getting some of the sequence to land. If your timing is just ever so slightly off, like say in the middle of a heated battle, you'll screw it up. I also find that it's rather "iffy" to land the 3BK PO after the WS K, hell it's even kind of "iffy" to land the WS K after the 236B. The reason is that if your opponent is just the right amount off axis when you do the attack, it just completely whiffs for no good reason. Also, a FC A+KK with the last hit CH has different properties than WS K on CH for some stupid reason, so 3BK whiffs even though the damn attack clearly went through the hitbox of the opponent.

After considering all of that, I usually just go the easier route with PO 236B, FC A+KK, 1BA PO into whatever you want to pull out next, it's not really that much less damage after considering the damage scaling with multiple hits, and the risk of random whiffing and execution/timing error is minimal compared to the harder bread and butter combo. 1BA doesn't do as much damage as 3BK and the A of 1BA can be ducked on reaction if not used in a combo (so don't), but it definitely doesn't randomly whiff as much either, and it will successfully land following both CH WS K and CH A+KK. A+KK also doesn't seem to whiff as much after PO 236B as WS K does. I don't pull the harder combo unless I am completely certain it will land, because with Taki, her individual move damage itself is pretty crappy, so if you miss even one combo opportunity, that is a huge blow to her game.

That being said, she still keeps pressure and traps very well and her mindgames are second to none. In SCIV, she has more options than anyone when up close, as she should, considering the time it takes to master and execute with her. Hell, I'd say her entire game is based on constant (standing) pressure and mixup shenanigans, and if you cannot keep that up with Taki, then you simply won't win. Does ease-of-use factor into these tier lists? Cuz Taki definitely has to work harder to win, but also has more potential tools at her disposal that work well at high level play, so considering the player is willing to work harder, she is up there. In the right hands, I think she's upper-mid at the least, top at most.
 
I have mained Cass since her introduction and I still do not think she is top tier in this game. I think she is upper-mid.

For those that don't think Setsuka is top tier and want some proof go look at the whore peep show and watch cheesemister's, or whatever his name is, videos.

I'm still convinced that Zas is worse than Rock, and if he didn't have B+K I truly don't think he could touch most of the characters.

I think Ivy is and will always be top-tier, her game is just insane with all the possibilities.

I completely agree about Voldo being top tier in this game I thought he was when I used him along time ago.
 
So far, I'm loving the fact that no characters (maybe aside from Yoshi, Amy and Rock) truly stand out amongst the tiers as being set in their particular areas. This is a huge turn-around from SC3, where tiers were set almost immediately after the game's release and remained pretty constant.
 
So far, I'm loving the fact that no characters (maybe aside from Yoshi, Amy and Rock) truly stand out amongst the tiers as being set in their particular areas. This is a huge turn-around from SC3, where tiers were set almost immediately after the game's release and remained pretty constant.

I would like to know then how Zas can be seen as anything besides bottom tier.
 
Voldo isn't top tier. He's good though

How is Voldo not top tier?

Great throw game. Great critical finish game. Great punisher, usable from FC. Great range. Great mixups. Safe. Decent ringout game. Decent wakeup game. Great tech crouches.
 
How is Voldo not top tier?

Great throw game. Great critical finish game. Great punisher, usable from FC. Great range. Great mixups. Safe. Decent ringout game. Decent wakeup game. Great tech crouches.

And don't forget his stances. They're very unpredictable and most of the time, you don't know what's going to happen.
 
You didn't answer my question. I want to know how he can be anything besides bottom tier, because I personally see him as being worse than Rock.

I play both. I believe Zas is Rock's equal at worst and better than Rock at best.

Ask yourself what is Zas' fastest non-high move? 2A. B+K. 3K. BB(4).

What is Rock's fastest non-high move? Crouch throw. His fastest mid is 6K/4K. Both are unsafe on block. Both give disadvantage on hit, because when 6K hits, everything will beat out a Rock followup.

What does Rock have against jumpers?

Zas has 4A+B, most of his mids, and even a few highs.

Rock has... not too much. 4B is linear, high, and short range. His fastest mid is 17 frames. His BB is far more risky. Anything with range is at least 2 times slower for Rock.
 
I'm still convinced that Zas is worse than Rock, and if he didn't have B+K I truly don't think he could touch most of the characters.

I hope that was a typo and you meant to say 4B+K, because that move is actually good. B+K does 0 damage (literally), neg on hit, and it's not phenomenally fast either (i12 at best).
 
I hope that was a typo and you meant to say 4B+K, because that move is actually good. B+K does 0 damage (literally), neg on hit, and it's not phenomenally fast either (i12 at best).

I meant that if he didn't have B+K that he would be screwed against alot of the characters.
 
Oh wait . .these lists are coming from the same people who have Setsuka as top tier with 3 shitty lows that can be seen a mile away. She has no deep pressure and no mixup.
 
-Best ringout in the game. he can ringout facing the edge and against the edge. He can RO front throw and back throw, attack throw, anti air and regular hit. Hands down:
4B+K
B+G
BT Throw
6AB (air hit)
3AB (airhit)
CH 3AB
1A
WRB6
BT B+K
CH 4B:B
4A/44A:B2_4B?(forget the notation)
Thats 12 damn ways to ring out, not counting WR 3B and 3B. That makes 14. But nobody plays him and nobody gives a crap.
-Almost every move he had in SC3 that was a useless parlor trick is safe and or gives decent frames
-Sickening anti-step game
-WR mind games (2K > throw/ 2K 2A spam/ 2K > WR B)
-BT B+K loops_[B+K] into throw_low sweep loops
-Kills aggressive offense (B+K, KK, 3K, CH 4B:B)
-Cancellation of canned combos into mindgames ie 66B, 1BB, 6A, 6B = opponent ducks
-Decent oki


See the problem is, I know you guys arent playing Zasalamels worth shit. And that doesnt mean he isnt worth shit. Im online several nights out of the week and I have YET to see a Zasalamel beast, but thats not to say the potential isnt there.


Zasalamel SHUTS DOWN overly aggressive players.
 
-Best ringout in the game. Hands down:
4B+K
B+G
BT Throw
6AB (air hit)
3AB (airhit)
CH 3AB
1A
WRB6
BT B+K

-Almost every move he had in SC3 that was a useless parlor trick is safe and or gives decent frames
-Sickening anti-step game
-WR mind games (2K > throw/ 2K 2A spam/ 2K > WR B)
-BT B+K loops_[B+K] into throw_low sweep loops
-Kills aggressive offense (B+K, KK, 3K, CH 4B:B)
-Cancellation of canned combos into mindgames ie 66B, 1BB, 6A, 6B = opponent ducks
-Decent oki


See the problem is, I know you guys arent playing Zasalamels worth shit. And that doesnt mean he isnt worth shit. Im online several nights out of the week and I have YET to see a Zasalamel beast, but thats not to say the potential isnt there.


I play Zas often and the first thing I will say is he does not have the best ring out game.
Also most of his moves are unsafe.
He does not kill step as well as you seem to think.
I haven't researched it, but I think his ground game sucks too.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom