1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Say what you want. For everyone thats "top tier" you can pic apart their weaknesses just as much as you can emphasize whats so good.

So in the end, the "bottom tier" is still very much competitive, moreso than the skewed tiers in other games. Meaning these tiers are crap minus Yoda. . correct?


Mind you, the "most" in the moves that are unsafe are moves you really shouldnt be using anyway. Unless you want to nitpick, nobody has a prefectly safe game. His top 10 moves are nowhere near as unsafe as say . .Ivy or Talim.
 
Artilust said:
Say what you want. For everyone thats "top tier" you can pic apart their weaknesses just as much as you can emphasize whats so good.

So in the end, the "bottom tier" is still very much competitive, moreso than the skewed tiers in other games. Meaning these tiers are crap minus Yoda. . correct?


Mind you, the "most" in the moves that are unsafe are moves you really shouldnt be using anyway. Unless you want to nitpick, nobody has a prefectly safe game. His top 10 moves are nowhere near as unsafe as say . .Ivy or Talim.
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Ivy has unlimited options and she also has things such as her SS and CS throws. You say moves you shouldn't be using but there are several that you listed that aren't very good. Such as KK it's unsafe and if you know how to fight him it can be blocked on reaction and punished.

No I don't think these tiers are crap, but they are evolving as new things are learned.
 
Have we played each other before? What did you think of my Zasalamel?

Im not sure if we have, but ive never lost a Zas mirror match.


EDIT: Nightmare's GS KK is an annoyance, nowhere near the 14 ways to ringout of Zasalamel. Hilde's shakable half ring RO doesnt count.

I know the characters more than you think, sir.
 
I've played like two Zasalemels online. I only use Cass in ranked because she has and always will be my main in every SC but in player matches I switch between all three so if you have fought someone that uses Cass and Sets then you may have fought me. I just picked up Zas about two weeks ago so I know we haven't had a mirror match, but before I picked him up we may have.
 
You mean to tell me I just went into this Zasalamel theory and you have been playing him for 2 weeks?

Im about to get online, if you want to play.
 
I won't be there just look at my "God Why Me" topic and let me sulk in self-pity

You can add me because if Sony can't help me then I guess I'm just gonna have to start over
 
Artilust said:
Have we played each other before? What did you think of my Zasalamel?

Im not sure if we have, but ive never lost a Zas mirror match.


EDIT: Nightmare's GS KK is an annoyance, nowhere near the 14 ways to ringout of Zasalamel. Hilde's shakable half ring RO doesnt count.

I know the characters more than you think, sir.
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If you think thats the only way Nightmare can ring out then you clearly don't know him.

And all Hilde has to do is catch one mistake and she can carry you off the stage from almost anywhere.
 
If you've been playing Zasalamel for only two weeks, and only as a secondary character, you really, really should not be talking about his place in a tier list...

And judging Setsuka's tier by CheeseOfTheDay's videos is absurd. Setsuka's most damaging combos involve walls, distance to said walls(Can't be too close for some of them), and less importantly but still very hindering, extremely difficult input.

Setsuka has strengths, but CheeseOfTheDay's videos are mostly meaningless for a tier list.
 
Plume said:
If you've been playing Zasalamel for only two weeks, and only as a secondary character, you really, really should not be talking about his place in a tier list...

And judging Setsuka's tier by CheeseOfTheDay's videos is absurd. Setsuka's most damaging combos involve walls, distance to said walls(Can't be too close for some of them), and less importantly but still very hindering, extremely difficult input.

Setsuka has strengths, but CheeseOfTheDay's videos are mostly meaningless for a tier list.
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First what I should have said was competitively. I played Zas much earlier, but I didn't actually try to learn the ins and outs of his style.

Also I just said to look at that video for possibilities of what she is capable of. Everyone's most damaging combos involve walls so I don't know what your point is with that. Difficulty of execution has no place in determining placing on a tier list.

My biggest nag is that crap you just spit up about how I shouldn't be talking about Zas' position on a tier list. If you are going to make this argument then no one should be suggesting tier positions because I would be willing to bet that almost all the people that posted in this thread have only glanced at half the characters they judged. Most people then should not suggest Rock as bottom tier because they haven't used him more than ten times. At least I am learning what works and what doesn't work with Zas so I bet I'm in a better position to evaluate him than most people on here, because I haven't seen many Zas mainers.
 
Indeed, people don't know Rock much, and he's not that bad, but it's rather clear that he doesn't have the tools needed to reach a very high potential.

Wall combos are better for every character, but if I recall correctly, COTD's videos feature almost only that.
So yeah, that vid doesn't really show what happens in a real match.

If it's a reason why people say she's top tier, then it means that those who are more realist understand that she's not top.

But yeah, I'm not well placed either to talk in details about Setsuka. I just wanted to say that this video is a poor argument.


Also, if you didn't even take the time to learn about Zasalamel's in and outs, then once again, who are you to say he's bottom tier?
I took the time, and I still didn't understand everything about Setsuka.
It should mean that you're missing a lot of Zasalamel's details... unless he's really that much shallow.


Astaroth is bottom tier, by the way. I can do much better with Rock. Although I spent at least 40 more hours studying/practicing Rock, but still, Astaroth just sucks.
 
Artilust said:
Hilde's shakable half ring RO doesnt count.

I know the characters more than you think, sir.
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Wait, what shakeable combo?

Your answer aside, though, that in NO WAY encompasses the whole of Hilde's ring out game. Almost every one of Hilde's best moves can ring out, although I will admit that most of it has to be done from the front. As linear as Hilde is, only a few moves will RO from the side and even fewer RO from the back. However, what Hilde has that Zas does not is that Hilde's RO game requires almost no setup. Between C3A, 44K, C2AA, 4B+K, 2A+K, 2A+BK, 66B, 3BA, and others, Hilde rings out consistently as part of her normal playstyle.
 
Plume said:
Astaroth is bottom tier, by the way. I can do much better with Rock. Although I spent at least 40 more hours studying/practicing Rock, but still, Astaroth just sucks.
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Astaroth is WAY stronger than Rock IMHO.
Way better standing throws, better mids in general, better 6K on neutral hit, got a real combo on CH (and not an escapable grounded throw), better spacing game, better SG game, better RO game.
Rock only got a better forward dash (yay) and a slighty better wake up game !


The only saving grace of Rock is his insane wake-up game, but he's lacking in every others parts of the game. And he got some horrible match up =)
 
So he has a list of 14 questionable moves that ring out? Many of which are pretty worthless and unsafe?

Well Tira has a list 40 moves long of moves that can ring out! She must be the best in the game!

(PS. She is not. And she has one of the worst RO games out of everyone)


And yes, Plume, combo videos are a bad way to make tier judgements. Just about everyone has crazy combos in the right situations but most of them aren't actually viable in a match.
 
king of ring outs probably goes to hilde, one small whiff and she shoots you out of the stage within 2-3 moves, damn annoying bitch. It's like oh my fucking god whenever i get hit by those launching charge moves then the next thing i know i already lost.
 
@Plume: Whatever crappy matchups Astaroth has are just as bad (If not worse) for Rock. They're both as safe as used needles on block, but Astaroth has more damage to back it up, and the lion's share of better moves compared to Rock. As others have said, Rock has an excellent oki game, but that's about it.
 
Yeah, Asta is still perfectly fine. Bullrush is safer than it looks from the frame data, and the JF throws are awesome because of the tiny break windows. He's the counter-pick to Hilde as well, since she's vulnerable to throws and her ring-out combo doesn't work on him.
 
Impending_Doom66 said:
I meant that if he didn't have B+K that he would be screwed against alot of the characters.
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Why? the move is nearly useless regardless of the matchup. why not just do KK, 3K, or 2A in any situation where you might do B+K?

Zas reverse RO is best in the game, but frontal RO? Hell no, he can't hold a candle to nightmare, astaroth, and hilde in that category.


Zas is not hopeless but he is without a doubt low tier if not bottom.
 
As a Zas player, I can confidently say he is bottom-tier. Zas has a medium-sized bag of tricks, but against a player who can block his attacks on reaction, he really doesn't have any outs. Many of his attacks are punishable when blocked, and his ringouts are generally slow and/or predictable. Online Zas fairs *much* better as it's more difficult to block on reaction, but it's still not impossible. My success with Zasalamel is directly related to how well my opponent knows my tricks. If he knows them, there's nothing I can do.

If Zas's moves were sped up or made less punishable, I'd say he'd have a shot at being mid-tier. As is though, he's firmly rooted at the base of the tier tree.
 
I still say Zas does not even have good tricks, and thus talk of such things should not even be present in tier discussions. Saying "there is nothing you can do" if they know your tricks just means you need to learn the game better.
 
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