1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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eltoshan said:
@Nori, the problem is that in my testing iGDR does not TC before the active frame, meaning that it recovers crouching and does not TC at all. Are you sure you've tested the TC in SC4 and you actually aren't just interrupting strings? a lot has changed since SC3 you know.
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I can also confirm this. From my testing, iGDR definately doesn't TC that much (except maybe towards the end of the animation). It DOES TJ like a "whoa" though
 
One thing that is very noticeable for me is I can consistently step Raph's 3B when I am at -4~-5 with Nightmare, but not with Setsuka, Cervy, and Yun. This is a case where I think having a faster step helps immensely.

Maxou, I consider Cervy as top 6 or 7, not top 3 by any means.
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Interesting indeed, I'll be sure to test that.

Although, when you take step in account, IMO you musn't focus on the range of the step but on the reward as well, which is just as important.

IMO the top 3 are Hilde, Voldo and Setsuka (I don't take Algol in account since in france he is banned).
And Kilik is overated (high tier but definitively not top).
 
Alex.J said:
A+B is nothing to write home about? I am sorry for thinking a quick mid that gives frames on block a good move. How could I be so foolish to think a fast mid that gives frames on block good. BB, 1b, 7k all setup for the doom combo, so yeah they must be trash moves also. As for the everyone has good moves, you saying everyone has the equivalent of a tech crouching, auto gi, tracking, frames on block, ring out mid? Yeah I am sorry Hotnikkelz, Hilde is overrated you have proven me wrong. I won't post in this thread again, you have defeated me.
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Don't be mad or anything man, you know u're my dog and i didn't mean anything in offence :)
A+B is not fast...it's at least i20...could be more. I can't say off hand. It doesn't track as good as you claim either, unless i'm mistaken. Now i didn't say thosee moves were trash, also i remember saying everyone has GOOD moves, not similar but good...u're putting words in my mouth. What i did say there's nothing really special about them, well except C3A. That's the only spectacular move you mentioned. That's not enough imo.

What's special about her IS the death combo. EVERYTHING for her revolves around landing it. She NEEDS it. Suppose they nerf that combo...would u still consider her top? Very doubtful, far from it. The combo is just too strong hence the reason she's top. That's all i'm saying.

--
When it comes to Setsuka, i think she's a hard character for me to rank. I know she's up there..but how far up can't say definitely.
Her lows aren't really fast except 1A and they're not safe either. And 1A she has to be very close. She has AWESOME pokes, and GREAT movement and safety, the only problem though is her ability to crack a good turtle from what i can see. She's not special vs soul gauge, her throws are great, but the throw range is not. Her low and throw punishment with umbrella is stellar and and compares to none since she can ringout a good distance. Her combo game is awesome too. 33B is great as people say but only does REAL damage on CH....it's very steppable to her right too. Apart from that not many bad things to say about her, very solid character. But how does she fare vs STRONG defensive characters? Sets players speak up...
 
So you're saying she's not top, but she is top because of her death combo's, but she isn't top because she relies on the death combo?

...

really?

Tier discussions are awesome.
 
Setsuka can actually eat gauge up very well:

3B breaks in 10, safe mid launcher that guarantees umbrella on hit.
6B breaks in 13, safe mid that creates space.
bA breaks in 15, very hard to punish for most of the cast at tip range, TC tracking mid.
4B breaks in 13, I get this occasionally when I mess up 214B (dumb, I know).
9B breaks in 10, safe.
4K breaks in 14, +0~+2 on block, high.
1K and 9K break in 16, both are safe, 1K is TC, 9K is TJ with minor TC.
2A+B breaks in 11, low that combos into 22A+BA, -16 but safe against some characters and minor punishment against others.
B+K breaks in 10, -14 on block but opponent is in FC.
66A breaks in 15, safe step killing long range move that's i18.
11A breaks in 14, -16 on block, super TC, step killer, + on NH, 80 damage on CH.
11B breaks in 10, -6 on block, opponent in FC, combo on hit.
66B+K breaks in 10, safe TC long range mid.
44B+K breaks in 15, i14 punisher, -16 on block.

That's all of her useful moves that will break the gauge quickly. She has other less useful moves like agB that will break in 8, and aB in 10, umbrella breaks in 15 but -22 on block. Just don't expect to break gauges with 1B:B or 33B.

Against turtles setsuka can use less 1B:B and 33B in favor of her soul gauge game, throws and 1A JF when the opportunity arise, 11A can be disguised as 2361A to make it harder to block, wave dash to give longer range to her throws.

So while being patient is the best way to play against setsuka, she still has legitimate tools to make you not turtle.
 
Ceirnian said:
So you're saying she's not top, but she is top because of her death combo's, but she isn't top because she relies on the death combo?

...

really?

Tier discussions are awesome.
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I never said she's not top. I said she's OVERrated.
My ranking has her as top, and i have said she's top...just not the best as ppl put her just underneath Algol. I'm saying her death combo MAKES her top.

eltoshan:
hmm good to know, thanks
 
hotnikkelz said:
What's special about her IS the death combo. EVERYTHING for her revolves around landing it. She NEEDS it. Suppose they nerf that combo...would u still consider her top? Very doubtful, far from it. The combo is just too strong hence the reason she's top. That's all i'm saying.
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Hilde against bad matchups like Astaroth, death combo will spell doom for Hilde... Against character who has really good close mixups like Cervante, and Mitsu.... Hilde on the defensive trying to punish is not really a good idea in my opinion. Everytime I play Hilde "normally" against Asta, Mitsu, and Cervy, I always lose... I just have to start dropping the combo idea, and go for more of the conventional stuff, since after I block I could never pull out a safe charge... Could be just me...

Hilde's grab is awesome, Hilde's 2A+B + whatever is extremly tricky. 7K is infinitely better than 1B in my opinion.. it has a small radial hit box so it can prevent some steps, seems to come out a lot faster... And I am pretty sure it tech lows...

I don't like BB, honestly, I prefer 6A+B or 6BBB... BB just seems slow, but tracking I am not sure... 6A+B has some tracking if I remember correctly.

As for my tierlist... I'd say something like this:
(I excluded Starwars and Algol)

S
Hilde, Voldo
A
Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Setsuka, Amy, Cass, Ivy
B
Sophie, Lizardman, Yoshimitsu, Astaroth, Kilik
C
Siegfried, Nightmare, Xianghua, Taki, Talim
D
Maxi, Raphael, Tira, Yun,
E
Zasalamel, Rock, Seong Mina

My tier list is based on my experience playing Hilde over the months since launch... The higher the other characters are the harder time I have beating them with Hilde... and Voldo being my worst matchup follow by Cervantes and Mitsurugi... They have crazy mixups, good stepper control, solid damage on basic hits, it just makes me nuts playing Hilde against them...

It's not saying other characters dont' have good mix ups or something, but playing Hilde so long, against most close-up character, Hilde's step works wonder, and her basic evasive kicks and jabs can get her to safety, but against mitsu and cerv, I feel like I am left with not much option with Hilde... maybe someone can shed me some light :x

Another one is Asta's 6K, that knee-cap probably hit me more than any other moves, but most of the time it's just me stupid not blocking it lol... but yea, I have easier time against asta.

As for Kilik, I don't know why people put him so high, I never had any trouble against him, and a lot of moves seem to have huge flaws and easily dodged... he is also one of the most used opponent char too, maybe it's just that actual Kilik master are very few in number...
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
Cervantes is good. Setsuka is better.
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I definitely see Setsuka is a threat, but I think Cervantes' range is good too... Which I think balances out the two character... I do have less trouble against Set than Cerv simply because she is shorter than Cerv ;x
 
errorrrr said:
I definitely see Setsuka is a threat, but I think Cervantes' range is good too... Which I think balances out the two character... I do have less trouble against Set than Cerv simply because she is shorter than Cerv ;x
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Don't you mean taller? I thought Setsuka was on high heels.
 
When it comes to Setsuka, i think she's a hard character for me to rank. I know she's up there..but how far up can't say definitely.
Her lows aren't really fast except 1A and they're not safe either. And 1A she has to be very close. She has AWESOME pokes, and GREAT movement and safety, the only problem though is her ability to crack a good turtle from what i can see. She's not special vs soul gauge, her throws are great, but the throw range is not. Her low and throw punishment with umbrella is stellar and and compares to none since she can ringout a good distance. Her combo game is awesome too. 33B is great as people say but only does REAL damage on CH....it's very steppable to her right too. Apart from that not many bad things to say about her, very solid character. But how does she fare vs STRONG defensive characters? Sets players speak up...
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Everything in bold is wrong.
33B NH does really decent damage (just like Amy damage from her 33B) : 58 damage and okizeme, 80 damage if a wall is here.
She has a very good soul gauge game, not because she breaks SG very fast but because all her breaking SG moves are spammable, and she can gets many GI since she's so safe.
Her throw range is great too (214B+G has less range than the other throws though).

As for how to break a turtle :
It's not really difficult actually, I just out turtle them. Setsuka's one of the best defensive character so you don't really care (when I mean defensive I talk about active defense as well, which is Setsuka's strongest point). No really Setsuka breaks turtle just fine, she has everything she wants to do that (frame traps, good throws, good range, good antistep moves, good evasive game, good GI game, good punition game and she's safe).
 
Maxou said:
Everything in bold is wrong.
33B NH does really decent damage (just like Amy damage from her 33B) : 58 damage and okizeme, 80 damage if a wall is here.
She has a very good soul gauge game, not because she breaks SG very fast but because all her breaking SG moves are spammable, and she can gets many GI since she's so safe.
Her throw range is great too (214B+G has less range than the other throws though).

As for how to break a turtle :
It's not really difficult actually, I just out turtle them. Setsuka's one of the best defensive character so you don't really care (when I mean defensive I talk about active defense as well, which is Setsuka's strongest point). No really Setsuka breaks turtle just fine, she has everything she wants to do that (frame traps, good throws, good range, good antistep moves, good evasive game, good GI game, good punition game and she's safe).
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What's the 33B combo? 33B -> JF umbrella/bA? Umbrella doesn't give good wakes and 58 damage is pretty decent, but that's pretty avg i think.
Safety alone doesn't make an attack spammable imo, not if the attacks are linear or slow for instance. VS setsuka i don't think i've ever blinked red, but i've conceded anyway. GI is a something every character can do. How much u successfully GI is not a character issue imo.
Her throw range is great? i think now you're being biased. Compared to who? It's been my experience her throw range is like Voldo's. Basically she leads the bottom tier where throw range is concerned.
 
Compared to Xianghua, Hilde, Sophitia, Mitsurugi... I can assure you her throw range is great. I don't know how I can prove it to you, I thought it was a fact that her throw range was great... my usual opponents are very good french player (Kenpachi, Jotaro, BlackCat, Thiry, Rddk,...), and each time I get a successful max range throw everyone is shocked.

33B bA is the combo. 58 damage is decent. Not the highest she can do but decent.

You don't get what I mean by spammable for her CF moves. Focusing on CF is a bad strategy, it makes you very predictible, allowing your opponent to read your game way more easily.
But as for Setsuka, EACH of her CF moves can be used in a serious match, and for a diffrent purpose than CF.

Elthosan said it all : (just made some minor corrections)


3B breaks in 10, safe mid launcher that guarantees umbrella on hit.
6B breaks in 13, safe mid that creates space. > the less usefull.
bA breaks in 15, very hard to punish for most of the cast at tip range, TC tracking mid.
4B breaks in 13, I get this occasionally when I mess up 214B (dumb, I know).
9B breaks in 10, safe.
4K breaks in 14, +0~+2 on block, high.
1K and 9K break in 16, 1K is TC and creates spacing, 9K is TJ with minor TC (can be punished by AA of some characters).
2A+B breaks in 11, low that combos into 22A+BA, -16 but safe against some characters and minor punishment (meaning NH 2K which is -6 on hit) against others.
B+K breaks in 10, -14 on block but opponent is in FC.
66A breaks in 15, safe step killing long range move that's i18.
11A breaks in 14, -16 on block, super TC, step killer, + on NH, 75 damage on CH.
11B breaks in 10, -6 on block, opponent in FC, combo on hit.
66B+K breaks in 10, safe TC long range mid, reduces/creates spacing.
44B+K breaks in 15, i14 punisher, -16 on block but pushes back (hard to punish against some character, ex : Kilik).
 
Error: in your list, Asta should be put in the A category. He can control her better than you think. Espically in the distance game. Up close, he can mix-up you on the the defensive also

he has: 22_88AA, 4B, 66K, 6K, 3A, 2A, 2K, 1B.....doesn't want to name ALL of his up close options.
 
Last thread was closed, probably due to 1k posts

Anyway, back to arguing:

1) Hilde
2) Cervantes
3) Voldo

For 4 and 5 I'm not entirely sure. It could be any of the following:

Kilik
Asta
Ivy
Taki
Setsuka

All 5 IMO are capable of being Top Tier in the right hands and have all the tools to win. I'm very confident in the top 3 however


Overall, I still think it's pretty cool everybody is arguing/debating tiers. In SC3, we knew who was top right away. This game has been out for half a year and almost nothing concrete yet.
 
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