Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

You forgot my boys Astaroth and Lizardman.

Also, I still don't understand the hate for Rock. He was my favorite character as a kid, just look at how quintessentially badass he looked in SC1:

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I do think they watered him down over the years, but at the core of his design there's still plenty to work with.
 
It's not really hate, I also liked him pretty much when I played SE, he is just boring compared to Asta and has nothing to warrant making him playable again.

His kit generally sucks, his design is boring and kind of gives off the vibe of a knock-off Astaroth, and so help me god, if I hear "Bangooooo!" one more time. I don't hate him, I just honestly can't understand the appeal.

To me, he's the single most boring character in the entire franchise, Hwang and Yun Seong taking a close 2nd and 3rd respectively.
 
So Siegfried looks post SC3. Sophitia, Mitsurugi, and Ivy are SC1. This is like a Marvel's Contest of Champions setting.
Everybody is SCI. Nightmare and Siegfried both borrow aspects from their SCI design while also sharing aspects with another.

The only oddity is that Siegfried's story background seems to reference the end of SCI, though with disparities (it was supposed to be X who mainly beat Nightmare, not Kilik alone).
 
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For what make several different characters with an almost identical style of combat?
it's just a pointless waste of money and developer time.
In the SC5, the authors of the game retired heroes with too similar styles of combat, and personally in my opinion this decision was correct.

if you really miss the Rock - it's reasonable for you to ask the developers to release the Rock as an alternative costume for Asta

In addition, in a leak where Geralt was predicted, Nicolas was also predicted - some French barbarian, or an ogre with a big club
if it is ogre from the fairy tale about the "Puss in Boots" and the "Hop-o'-My-Thumb" , and his gameplay similar to Eyedol from KI - I'm glad in advance for him, he will be a very good substitute for the Rock.
 
some people say the game attained "console seller" status, but that is up to debate.
Up for debate by who?? Granted the Dreamcast wasn't the best selling console of all time, but SoulCalibur was unequivocally the best-reviewed game on the system. Unless you were a gamer at the time, you probably can't grasp how big a deal it was.
As for Rock... he is just irredeemably boring no matter what you do with him, he is just outdated and has nothing going for him that Asta doesn't do better.
SB characters were mostly cookie cutters
Okay, I see stuff like this said a lot, and I feel the need to address it. My goal here isn't to convince you (or anyone else) to love Rock, but just to understand the appeal he has.

Soul Edge's character designs aren't lazy, generic, cookie-cutter, plagiarized or any other critique you can think of. They are archetypal. Just like Street Fighter's Ryu embodies a Japanese warrior and Superman, Captain America and G.I. Joe all embody the American hero. I've heard people call all of these characters boring, and I can't exactly argue against that, but that completely misses how important these characters are.

These characters are all deeply understandable. We just have to look at their designs and we immediately get them. And when you're making a video game for the world market, this is super important. This was such a big consideration at the time that Namco didn't just censor Mitsurugi (or make him an Englishman with an eyepatch), but instead replaced their archetypal Japanese warrior with an archetypal Korean warrior. They wanted these characters to resonate with players. This was a very smart decision on their part, because fighting games especially benefit from these character archetypes. It's no exaggeration to say that Street Fighter, the most successful fighting game series of all time, is built around this idea. But if you look at Tekken, KOF, Mortal Kombat or any other long-running series, you'll find the same sort of character design philosophy coming up over and over. Especially when launching a brand new fighting game, these characters can make or break your series.

(Although there are of course some exceptions. Voldo was just the freak character that all fighting games are legally required to have.)

So how about Rock? Just a barbarian, right?

Nope. (Well, there might be a little bit of that in his design...) He's primarily a representative of the noble savage archetype. From Wikipedia:
A noble savage is a literary stock character who embodies the concept of the indigene, outsider, wild human, an "other" who has not been "corrupted" by civilization, and therefore symbolizes humanity's innate goodness.
Now, I'm going to completely ignore the flaws in this idea, but it needs to be said:

This is an incredibly powerful idea.

You can find examples of this idea throughout the world, across more cultures, religions and movies than you could ever list. The idea that the natural world can have a positive, improving influence over the individual is still widely believed to this day. If you have any friends who are really into hiking or camping, they might just believe this too.

So Rock - orphaned in the New World as a young boy, never formally trained or taught, becomes this incredibly strong warrior. And he adopts an orphan himself, demonstrating that he's not just naturally strong, but also a kind person.

Rock is not the wild barbarian archetype, who is typically representative of the most violent impulses of humanity. (He's not going to be raping and pillaging any time soon. Unless SC6 goes in a really weird direction...) If this was all he represented, there's no reason why Astaroth couldn't replace him completely.

Thankfully Rock is also not a tree-hugging, Pocahontas-wannabe, bullshit-spewing hippie either. The fact that he's always wearing animal furs communicates that he's not a stranger to the harsh realities of survival in a wild land. But it also indicates that he doesn't kill out of malice or sport. The bears and buffalo he's killed are obviously the only protection he has, and almost certainly his main source of food.

To put it as simply as I can, Rock is appealing partly because we admire individuals who can survive on their own in nature, and partly because the idea of the inherent goodness of humanity is really appealing.

Again, I'm not trying to tell you that you should love Rock. That shit's subjective. But so many people have asked "why does anyone like him?" that I felt the need to give an answer. Sorry for the wall of text.
 
"So how about Rock? Just a barbarian, right?"
Yes right, its generic barbarian, big and silly

"He's primarily a representative of the noble savage archetype"
No, its only speculation of your imagination
in the game there is nothing like this

Additionaly, the noble savage is by no means the most popular type of hero.
The only game with this type of hero, which became an international hit, is legendary Golden Axe
I do not remember other cases
 
That's all fine and good, but in what capacity is ANY of this nuance you speak of portrayed in any aspect of the game? It's not. That's my problem. The idea is almost irrelevant because it's not presented to the player in any tangible way.

Even his SC3 endings, it plays comedy music! Namco didn't even respect the poor guy.
 
Waiting for someone to save Korea in 1586...
Okay this made me cackle. though I genuinely miss Mina.

I honestly just think Project Soul needs to have more faith in their characters. There's so much potential for characters like Rock, the Koreans, etc. to be more popular but they just need better storylines.

I mean, there's a reason why PS decided to keep Rock all the way up until SCIV, but had the balls to replace Hwang/Li Long from the get-go.
 
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Rock was too early for the strong father figure that is ever so common now. He represented a paternal figure in early games, gruff and stern that primary focus is his son, basically half of the action heroes now. Sebastian Castellanos, Harry Mason or if you prefer an anime example, All Might from Boku No Hero. He was kinda undeveloped tho.
 
That's all fine and good, but in what capacity is ANY of this nuance you speak of portrayed in any aspect of the game? It's not. That's my problem. The idea is almost irrelevant because it's not presented to the player in any tangible way.
Okay, first of all this is not about nuance. Barbarians are all about the brutality of man, and the noble savage is about the inherent goodness of man. This is not a subtle difference. This is the Ewoks vs the Sand People in Star Wars.

Secondly, I only referenced the most basic elements of his backstory and his design. This isn't obscure lore or anything, it's the most basic parts of the character.

How is the information presented to the player? One only has to look at all the dead animals he's wearing to understand that he is a wild man. But if you want to look closer, his outfits (ignoring his weapon) have only very minimal bits of metal. Based purely on the visuals, one can understand that this is a character removed from civilization.

In terms of personality, you yourself said he won't shut up about Bangoo. It takes only a glance at his character profile, or seeing one of his endings, to learn that Bangoo is his adopted son. Bangoo is, as Ramus said, his primary focus. That doesn't fit with the image of a violent barbarian. But aside from just that, his personality is well-expressed in his taunt from SC3-4 "Stand up, warrior!" He treats his enemies with dignity and respect. Again, this is a total 180 from the cruelty displayed by Astaroth.
 
That's all fine and good, but in what capacity is ANY of this nuance you speak of portrayed in any aspect of the game? It's not. That's my problem. The idea is almost irrelevant because it's not presented to the player in any tangible way.

Even his SC3 endings, it plays comedy music! Namco didn't even respect the poor guy.

That "comedy music" is played in all the joke endings, and Rock isn't the only one that gets a joke ending. In his non-input ending, I'd say he's pretty respected, which you should consider his real ending:

 
But on the subject of all the other characters, the Koreans really have it the worst.

Hwang got outshined by Yun-seong because he was created to really represent the Chinese Sword style, when they should have just made Hwang a real character in SoulCalibur II instead, really not sure why they did this. Hwang was a Mitsurugi clone in SoulBlade and a Xianghua clone in SoulCalibur, so allowing him to have a breakout role in SoulCalibur II as finally being his own character would have been great. But no, he gets shafted by becoming "Assassin" and Yun-seong steals the spotlight. Why? It doesn't make sense to me.

About Yun-seong, he doesn't even really do anything important that Hwang couldn't have also done and/or better. He's an idiot who pursues Soul Edge despite several people telling him it's evil and obviously so, and he learns that it's evil each game where he interacts with it, and then the very next game, goes right back to pursuing it again. That's his entire character arc in every game he's in. Meanwhile if it was Hwang, they could have fleshed out Seong Mi-na more by having them be each others' foil, while Yun-seong is like her annoying little brother, Hwang could have been a real comrade. And SoulCalibur III even ditches Seong Mi-na in favor of Talim for being Yun-seong's "partner", dwindling her role even further.

Seong Mi-na, then, pretty much only exists to wrangle Yun-seong and bring him back home when he realizes he's an idiot and then has to do it again and again, which is pretty stupid to have be her role, when her original story was, in fact, leaving home to pursue her own path against her father's wishes. The difference, at least, is that Seong Mi-na realizes that her path was foolish, so she at least returned home, trained more, and got better, then did... nothing with her training, really, because she has to waste her life on Yun-seong. And then there's the part where she is unfairly labelled "Kilik clonse" by people who don't know any better, when she is actually the original, and Kilik is the clone.

It's sad when the biggest accomplishment that Hwang has over Yun-seong is that he at least kind of made it into SoulCalibur V as a malfested version of himself using the Devil Jin moveset for no adequately explained reason. But hey, at least he was in the game! :sc3hwang1:
 
That "comedy music" is played in all the joke endings, and Rock isn't the only one that gets a joke ending. In his non-input ending, I'd say he's pretty respected, which you should consider his real ending:


That ending is also a joke. Perhaps by no intent of Namco at the time, but I definitely laughed out loud when I saw it. Really? Rock just swimming in the ocean? It's goofy even by the standards of a game that doesn't take itself super seriously with many endings that kind of have a comic element. But this is full blown "Well what do we do with Rock now that he's won?" "Fuck, I don't know. Throw him in the water with a slight variation of his P1 costume." All of Rock's endings have been "Rock is with Bangoo now." No change, no care given to develop him in any meaningful way. He's not respected, not by a longshot.

Let's not waste each other's time pretending this is anything other than Namco not giving a shit about the character. It also says a lot when the entire dynamic of what little personality Rock has is based on a character that they haven't rendered any assets for in 20 years.



It is about nuance because you're asking us to look beyond what we're being shown through the game, which is literally an imbecilic barbarian screaming "Get lost!" and "Bangoo!!" at complete strangers.

Oh, he has an adoptive son that he cares about? Woah, such depth! It absolutely fits with the image of a bloodthirsty barbarian because bloodthirsty barbarians are people, and people like to have and raise their own families. It's not special. Bangoo isn't special and neither is Rock for caring about him.
 
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