Are you happy with Siegfried in SC4?

[DrakeAldan]

Well, that's true...

1A is even more punishable, but you can't even use a+kA:2A against a sister unless you're really sure of the outcome...

I dunno, maybe he was referring to a+kA2A ("that string"), and there were some communication issues.

 

[hotnikkelz]

I'm referring to the HIGH HORIZONTAL -> LOW STRING i.e a+kA:2A
That low is safe! I'm sure of it!
Guys please...look at the notations i'm using

I'm not referring to the spinning kick to the low attack.

 

[coth_x]

I'm referring to the HIGH HORIZONTAL -> LOW STRING i.e a+kA:2A
That low is safe! I'm sure of it!
Guys please...look at the notations i'm using

I'm not referring to the spinning kick to the low attack.

So to clarify you are talking about (a+k):A not (a+k)A strings?

 

[hotnikkelz]

haha ok let's go through it again

There's A+KA string, which is the high kick to high hori. Not very useful, but the A+K tends to be evasive sometimes. Note the capital letters. He can cancel that said A into a low. That low is unsafe, i don't like it though. However that low looks just like....

a+kA:2A which is the STANDALONE low i was referring too in the beginning. Note the common letters. Also note it's the SAME notation (but different input) for the HIGH horizontal, to the LOW horizontal string. Which kinda looks like his old A2A stuff. That low is his safest low, and is the low i was referring to in my later posts. It doesn't hit anybody, but it's a NC, and still rather useful for it's antistep and containment ability. As well as making the other a+k:A options work

so a+kA:2A is actually 2 moves, depending on how u do it.
Blazing fast = the low that LOOKS like A+KA:2A (not the Capital letters) but the properties are far better.
Slower but still fast = high low combo

 

[coth_x]

Well I saw where you said that a+kA:2A is safe, but then you later recant that statement.

I am not referring to that high to low combo, that attack although is decent for containment, is not what i am talking about. I'm referring to is this STANDALONE low (see link). The notation is the same but the input is different. It is important for Sieg for many reasons which I'm not even gonna bother to go through. Also it's doubtful that you're going to B+K this on reaction i'm pretty sure, it's already difficult to jump reflexively.

I'm referring to the HIGH HORIZONTAL -> LOW STRING i.e a+kA:2A
That low is safe! I'm sure of it!
Guys please...look at the notations i'm using

I'm not referring to the spinning kick to the low attack.

In the first post you refer to the fake out low a+kA:2A

In the second post you refer to the same input, but the incorrect string. You can see the problem people are having.

I just can't follow the different inputs your giving. Eliminating the kick start aka strings, leaves two strings, a high and a fake high to low.

so a+k:2A is actually 2 moves, depending on how u do it.

I even tested this input to make sure I wasn't missing something and this input doesn't exist.

I just want some clarification.

 

[DrakeAldan]

Also note it's the SAME notation (but different input) for the HIGH horizontal, to the LOW horizontal string.

... No, no it's not. The high-low combo is a+kA2A. The fake-out low is a+kA:2A.

Really, the notation for the low is wrong, since it's not a Just Frame, but rather multiple slides (A+K slide to A slide to 2A).

But they don't really have a notation for multiple slides like that,
so implying a JF (as in "fastest input") is all they can do, I'd think.

 

[hotnikkelz]

cothX:
My first few posts i didn't put any notation, i just stated THE LOW attack and i thought it would be obvious to everyone what i was talking about. For some reason kpc thought i was talking about something else and basically forced me to write out the command lol causing all these complica. All the rest start with a high move.
tions, with my blunder with the notation above. Either way if i said THE LOW ATTACK, it could only be ONE move
obviously. I didn't think i had to spell of it out :( who cares about the high strings? we're talking about lows!

Drake fair enough.

 

[kPc]

hot- just to be clear

A+KA- high kick to high slash

a+kA2A- High slash to low slash (yes this is the one thats safe and this is the one thats slow that everyone either blocks or jumps, this is the one me ans stryker were talking about)

a+kA:2A- This fakes out the high slash and then goes right to a low slash...just one hit. This is unsafe. Its not a JF but its like that because you have to hit 2A almost immediately after doing the high slash. If your talking about this one ITS UNSAFE!!! Sieg gets a WS K off of this and 1A

 

[coth_x]

cothX:
My first few posts i didn't put any notation, i just stated THE LOW attack and i thought it would be obvious to everyone what i was talking about. For some reason kpc thought i was talking about something else and basically forced me to write out the command lol causing all these complica. All the rest start with a high move.
tions, with my blunder with the notation above. Either way if i said THE LOW ATTACK, it could only be ONE move
obviously. I didn't think i had to spell of it out :( who cares about the high strings? we're talking about lows!

Drake fair enough.

It was this that really threw that post off.

"so a+k:2A is actually 2 moves, depending on how u do it." Cause this one input only gonna get one thing. Sorry, it was just getting really confusing in this thread. Demon's post above mine should be referred to from this point on.

 

[hotnikkelz]

kpc...i never said it was safe.

I said it was -14~16 depending on range. Do it at mid range and see how much less punishable it is.

What i did say is that it was safe vs MOST characters when used at mid range.
What i did say was safe was the low in a+kA2A.

 

[kPc]

1st comment, even then I wouldnt say most

2nd, ok you see I was mixed up with which low you were talking about so yes I do agree with ya on this.

and damnit I`m trying to get rid of that name!

 

[hotnikkelz]

Demontripp:
You should retest this at mid range and see HOW many characters STRUGGLE to punish this. Seriously.

The only characters that can punish -14 properly is Sophie and Sets and characters with crouch throw, which at mid range won't reach. Cass might be able to punish, but at mid range, i don't think she can.
That 2 frame difference at mid range compared to close range is a big deal.

 

[kPc]

hmmm, alright sounds good, I`ll try using it more at mid range

 

[Stryker]

Demontripp:
You should retest this at mid range and see HOW many characters STRUGGLE to punish this. Seriously.

The only characters that can punish -14 properly is Sophie and Sets and characters with crouch throw, which at mid range won't reach. Cass might be able to punish, but at mid range, i don't think she can.
That 2 frame difference at mid range compared to close range is a big deal.

When you are doing training you usually have to prepare some strings and sequences to confuse the enemy of maybe get a free hit. In those strings you usually fall cause the training is reflected in real matches, and if you are used to do some move against most character you will eventually use it on the wrong character too.

Reflexes, adaptation, fingers skill, training and many more characteristics are important to a player, but the most important is Concentration, something hard to achieve and easy to lose. While trying to not use some move that you are used to do against any character while fighting against a real punisher character then you will lose concentration after some time of thinking and thinking (shit! if I use that move I'm fucked! Oh no! I was about to do it! concentration, concentration...)

All the moves in the command list have a reason and a specific use in a match, but there's some moves that you can use whenever you want without thinking too much, relieving some of the match's pressure.

By example using Kilik I can do 95% of his move list without worrying to be hard punished, and I can be more relaxed to use better punish moves and other stuff. With Siegfried I feel like swimming against the river.

But the more important thing about whatever I can or could say is that I really love Siegfried, with his goods and bads points; I love to use that huge sword, that its bigger than him. But please understand me... I'm frustrated thinking about that the only choices to win its do it a better defense, an incredible evade game and above all do it the right choices while guessing about attack low, high or mid and the upcoming consequences...

This thread its not about complaint for Siegfried`s lows chances to win. Its a thread where you can express yourself and share information about new ways to improve the experience of use Siegfried as character.

-Stryker-

 

[AuLord]

The crux for Siggy to fall back on, quite honestly, is just how much damned damage he can do. For the most part, the poke strings, and fast attacks of most characters can be evened out in the end, and exceeded by simple CH 3 A+B, a lot of the time, or his mix-up game/wall game and throws. Two solid hits from Siegfried is a five hitter from most other characters. It's when the characters he fights are safer, and have moves that almost equal his own damage that his chances for winning become harder. The sisters and Kilik come to mind for my personal experience. It's also a failing on my own part as a player to adapt to them, but I will adapt!

Almost everyone else in this game, I'd say Siegfried has an even to favorable match against, or fairly even.

Yes, it's very frustrating having to play that carefully, but that's what adaptation is for. You just gotta swim against that damned river and keep on paddling as hard as you can. You'll reach shore eventually, and while some rivers are harder to swim against, there is dry land in sight. You just gotta be better than the guy you play against and have a very clear mind when you do it.

But, you're right, moving on from the match debates is what's important, and figuring out just how to make Siegfried a more effective character by examining and strengthening his holes and fleshing out his offensive/defensive game further.

 

[BalancedChaos]

Are you happy with Siegfried in SC4? YES.

 

[hotnikkelz]

Stryker:
I think that's the bane of ALL slow/unsafe characters, you're forced to play a bit more defensively and carefully. The characteristics you mention, is just that....it's the player, not the character. I can imagine your frustration (i don't play Sieg for that reason cuz i lack in some of those characteristics), however for a dude who likes Sieg THIS much, i thought you wouldn't mind the effort at all. I play maxi for instance...i haven't worked on any character this much...in my life...but i consider him most fun, and i have to take risks with him much more than Sieg, albeit maxi is a safer character in general ;)

I don't like Kilik, cuz i think he's plain stupid and simple. Characters that require less thought to play effectively irk me to no end. Characters like Kilik and Amy need adjustment imo for this reason.

 

[warble]

Siggy whiffs on 66B now, 3 got nerfed by the patch, he dances more effectively with 22_88b but overall is weaker because his big tech initiate (66b) is now a pile of dog crap and B+K, B is garbage when compared to the old 66b. The nerf to parry/repel techniques hurts Siegfried as hard or harder than all other characters because he is so defensively oriented, and whiffs on liz, soph and kilik make him far from top tier simply for matchup reasons.

 

[kPc]

warble- sigh....here we go again. OK, 66B has always been and probly always will be unsafe and isnt really that good of a move to begin with, matter of fact in 3 I beg you to try and use that against me (since you think it was better there), all I would do is block and punish all day. and whiff? you mean SSable? it doesnt whiff in neutral stance.

B+K B, is safe, launcher, and does great SG damage.

66B was never a tech traps after 22_88 B,

The only real use I see for 66B was if you truly knew what the attacker was going to do and if he was weak to his right side, then you can try and counter with 66B but even then there are better decisions.

Parrying affected everyone since you have to be more precise with it but even then its not that hard, if your having a problem then I`d go into practice mode.

Nikkel- Maxi is fun! But MT Fighter shown me exactly why I shouldnt even touch him, I was using strats that a specific maxi player that whooped my ass online against him and he just demolished me (he was a top Maxi player in 2 and even won a few in 3, sophie player now =( ) and shownj me where all of maxi's holes are, a very nice learning experience, but anyway, even with someone fun, to put in so much effort and then get beat by something stupid.....gets FRUSTRATING!

 

[AuLord]

RSH A+B is better than 66B in almost every way, these days; namely damage and safety, but that's just my opinion. But hey, 66B is available outside of a stance. I guess that's something. -And- it does step the opposite direction.

But, why would you want to hit 66B over B+K B? You can -hit- them with 66B or 44B after B+K B, and B+K B is safe anyway and leads to whacko Oki and damage.